Salvation belongs to the Lord.

[OzSpen]

God has to regenerate us before we can even begin to believe.
John 3:3

Simply put, 'Regeneration is the communication of life by the Spirit, to a soul dead in trespasses and sins' (Wiley 1952:407).

John 3:3 (ESV) reads, 'Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God"'. While being born again is parallel to regeneration, the word 'regeneration' (also meaning rebirth or spiritual renovation), paliggenesia, only appears twice in the NT at Matt 19:28 (ESV) and Titus 3:5 (ESV). 'Regeneration' is not the word used in John 3:3.

There is not a word in John 3:3 (ESV) that confirms your interpretation that regeneration (becoming born again) takes place BEFORE we believe. Not a word!

The biblical evidence is to the contrary, that conversion is prior to regeneration. We see this in passages such as:

• Acts 2:38 (ESV), 'And Peter said to them, “[You] repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"'.
• Paul & Silas to the Philippian jailer in Acts 16:31 (ESV), 'And they said, “[You] believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household"'.

Salvation/regeneration is dependent on 'you' repenting or believing. Conversion and the new birth happen simultaneously when a person repents and believes. There is not a word in John 3:3 (ESV) about the need for God's sovereign regeneration prior to salvation.

Oz

Works consulted
Wiley, H O 1952. Christian Theology, vol 2. Kansas City, Mo.: Beacon Hill Press of Kansas City.

 

[childeye]

The Truth is hard to ignore. It seems that God allows people in according to His timetable. Is there a scripture that counters these ones?
Romans 6:17
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

[OzSpen]

The Truth is hard to ignore. It seems that God allows people in according to His timetable. Is there a scripture that counters these ones?
Romans 6:17
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Is this meant to address what I wrote at #43? If so, it fails the test of addressing what I wrote.

On what basis are many 'ordained to eternal life'? Acts 13:48 (ESV) says they 'believed'. Acts 16:31 (ESV) confirms this.

 

[Cygnus]

Let's take a look at the assumptions being made above:

Jn 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit -- that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

God chooses us, and even appoints us to bear fruit, yet there is still that second sentence about the Father giving us whatever we ask
in His name!! If we don't then ask anything of Him, or doing anything in HIs name what then? We have choices to make. WE can choose to seek the Lord in the morning and serve Him, talk to Him, and help others, or not! The Israelites were a chosen people, but what happened? They said at the mountain, "Let God not speak to us."

Deut 14:02 for you are a people holy to the Lord your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the Lord has chosen you to be his treasures possession.

There is an assumption made that if a person or a people are chosen by God that those people will be faithful! The Israelites and the Old testament serve as a glaring example of how people act!! You can be chosen, you can be dragged through the desert for forty years and still not make it to the promised land!! Or didn't we read the Old Testament also?

Jn 10:26,27 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

So it does that mean that "Only His sheep hear His voice."?

Rev 3:20 Behold I stand at the door and knock, and if anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

Jesus is standing there knocking with HIs voice and anyone could hear HIs voice and open the door. That doesn't mean just anyone will, but it is available to anyone.

Romans 10:18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

People, all people are responsible for having believed and thus having listened to God, and then doing what He says. And they have ears to hear, even if they won't hear! His sheep do hear, and it is that hearing that has them following the Lord. And yes, God chooses them and He gives mercy and grace out as He wishes. He is God. but that doesn't mean they haven't heard, but that they don't listen with the ears that they do have.

We all have shut out others that were talking in the same room as were in at times. We heard them, but we didn't listen to them. We ignored them and paid no attention to them. We do that with God and His kingdom. The other person could come up and tap on our shoulder or I suppose even kick us to get our attention, or perhaps they won't. And that is how it is with God. None of us turn and listen to God, but some He comes us and perhaps kicks us, or screams in our spiritual ear, and some He doesn't. He can do what He wishes, because He is God. He can have mercy and grace on who He wishes, but that doesn't mean that every one in the room didn't hear. They all heard, but they didn't all listen.

It seems "heard' and "listen" gets a little confusing. My wife sometimes tells me I didn't hear her. Of course I heard he, but perhaps I didn't listen to what she was saying like I should have. That gets me in trouble. And not listening, as in choosing to actually listen to the Lord through out the day tends to get me in trouble with that marriage also. When I do choose to listen to the One who talks to me I get understanding and knowledge.

Prov 2:6 For the Lord gives wisdom; from His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

If you have indeed been listening, you certainly have seen that He choose you first, but you can get up in the morning and faithfully seek Him and choose to pay attention to Him. If you don't He might do something like start waking you up in the middle of the night to get your attention, or He might not and just let you suffer a bit for not paying attention to Him. We know that right? May some do and some don't, according to His desecration, but everyone has the choice even if none make that choice, and even if none are righteous, and even if all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Thanks for the post...but it does seem to be coming from the angle of the believer deciding to choose Jesus that day. I'm still of the opinion prior to regeneration we are dead to God. So dead we must be dragged to Christ... In other words we can't even hear God. For that to happen God must grant us the ability...that verse was presented above. God has to grant us grace and faith. God must give us the gift.

If it is not that way I still must ask the question.....why do we choose or not choose Jesus? I've asked that question recently and so far it has not been answered adequately.

 

[Cygnus]

Act 16:13 - And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
Act 16:14 - And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Act 16:15 - And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.​

The way I read the above passage is that Lydia already believed in The Father, and by hearing the Gospel through Paul came to also believe in Jesus Christ. The Lord(Jesus Christ) thus vicariously opened Lydia's heart through His life/death/resurrection as communicated by Paul. This interpretation is consistent with the example given farther down the chapter.

Act 16:29 - Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
Act 16:30 - And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 - And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 16:32 - And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Act 16:33 - And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Act 16:34 - And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.​

And it was the belief in Christ...all that He did....that allowed Lydia to be saved. God opened Lydias heart and she was able to understand the gospel and realize her salvation.

 

[Cygnus]

Again, you avoided answering my question , so your response is a red herring fallacy.

When will you learn to respond to what I write instead of giving your tangent?

What I presented using Strongs refuted your view. I'm sorry it was so easy. Your reply, basically...I don't like Strong. To be honest, I really don't care what your opinion of Strongs is.

 

[Cygnus]

Simply put, 'Regeneration is the communication of life by the Spirit, to a soul dead in trespasses and sins' (Wiley 1952:407).

John 3:3 (ESV) reads, 'Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God"'. While being born again is parallel to regeneration, the word 'regeneration' (also meaning rebirth or spiritual renovation), paliggenesia, only appears twice in the NT at Matt 19:28 (ESV) and Titus 3:5 (ESV). 'Regeneration' is not the word used in John 3:3.

There is not a word in John 3:3 (ESV) that confirms your interpretation that regeneration (becoming born again) takes place BEFORE we believe. Not a word!

The biblical evidence is to the contrary, that conversion is prior to regeneration. We see this in passages such as:

• Acts 2:38 (ESV), 'And Peter said to them, “[You] repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"'.
• Paul & Silas to the Philippian jailer in Acts 16:31 (ESV), 'And they said, “[You] believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household"'.

Salvation/regeneration is dependent on 'you' repenting or believing. Conversion and the new birth happen simultaneously when a person repents and believes. There is not a word in John 3:3 (ESV) about the need for God's sovereign regeneration prior to salvation.

Oz

Works consulted
Wiley, H O 1952. Christian Theology, vol 2. Kansas City, Mo.: Beacon Hill Press of Kansas City.

Regeneration happens first. You can't even repent or believe unless your "alive". The bible is clear we are dead in our sins and trespasses..and jesus Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved

Of course we speak in linear terms....a time line, but some of the events in our salvation happen at the exact same time.

 

[childeye]

Is this meant to address what I wrote at #43? If so, it fails the test of addressing what I wrote.

I don't contest what you wrote.

On what basis are many 'ordained to eternal life'? Acts 13:48 (ESV) says they 'believed'. Acts 16:31 (ESV) confirms this.

I notice that you didn't ask on what basis did many believe? I would not presume that it isn't because they were ordained to eternal life. 'Ordained' is a powerful word, particularly since in this translation it implies an exact number, (As many as). Deeper still, I would not presume that the power of the cross is not persuasive and reason enough why people should believe. But yet some do not believe. So the question arises of whether they deny the truth as meant to, according to the sifting of the Almighty? And does God reveal Himself according to His wisdom and timing? To escape any unseen vanity on my part, for believing, I do believe it is so.

 

[K2CHRIST]

That's all well and good WIP....but what about context?
The verse that directly preceeds verse 20 says the following...."'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent."

What does that mean? I think it has to do with a christian that have lost their way. Christ is talking to the church of Laodicea in this instance which did just that.
Can you be dogmatic about this being a salvation only verse? I know I can't.

Thanks for the post...but it does seem to be coming from the angle of the believer deciding to choose Jesus that day. I'm still of the opinion prior to regeneration we are dead to God. So dead we must be dragged to Christ... In other words we can't even hear God. For that to happen God must grant us the ability...that verse was presented above. God has to grant us grace and faith. God must give us the gift.

If it is not that way I still must ask the question.....why do we choose or not choose Jesus? I've asked that question recently and so far it has not been answered adequately.

While I am in agreement that we won't choose God and thus won't hear/listen to God unless God intervenes, so it can be considered a gift, still it is not fair to say anyone "can't" hear.

Heb 4:2 ... but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

Rom 10:18 but I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.

So the ends of the world has heard but it doesn't profit them because it is not united by faith!

In a more practical sense God influences people whether they now it or not. Abram heard the Lord talking to him in a vision, and that belief was counted to him as righteousness. (Gen 15) So what if Abram did not believe that it was God talking to him, would that mean God didn't talk to him and that he didn't hear, or does it mean that God talked to him but didn't think it was God.

I see where you thought Rev 3:20 only applied to the church of Laodicea, but it says "anyone", and we know we have a record of it in the Scriptures and a instruction to read the Scriptures, so there must be some reason to maintain the record and ask people to read and study it. Why do that if believers hear and non-believers can't? There would be no reason to tell non-believers to seek the voice of the Lord and believe if it wasn't possible for them to hear! Yet there is a reason of showing them their rebellion and that shows in their unwillingness to listen to God whom they could but won't listen to. Can a person be found guilty and deserving of hell and eternal death if there wasn't even the possibility that the could hear but wouldn't?

There was a preacher I like who emphasized the importance of clearly explaining to people that they were indeed very rebellious, so that they might come to understand that they desperately needed God's forgiveness, mercy and grace. So while I agree with predestination, it is important to make it clear that they are rebellious sinner's not willing to listen to God. Then they might repent and start listening to Him. That is consistent with the approach taken in the Bible. While the Bible does talk about predestination, it has so much more about our being rebellious and not listening to God!

Is 1:2 "Listen, O heavens, and hear, O earth; for the Lord speaks

Is 1:10 Hear the word of the Lord, You rulers of Sodom; Give ear to the instruction of our God.

Is 1:20 "But if you refuse and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword." Truly, the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

Is 11:4 ... and He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth.

Is 28:14 Therefore, hear the word of the Lord, O scoffers.

The Bible is loaded with instruction to the unbeliever to hear and comments about God's voice going out to the earth (not just believers, but unbelievers and those not chosen) but they won't listen.

Prov 8:4 To you, O men, I call And my voice is to the sons of men.

Jer 25:29,30 I am summoning a sword against all the inhabitants of the earth... and you shall to them, "The Lord will roar from on high and utter His voice from His holy habitation..

So while none can glory in themselves because all have sin and none seek the Lord unless He has intervenes, the Bible is still clear that His voice goes out to all the world and so we could hear it, but we won't. So saying we can't gives us people an excuse before God and we don't have that excuse! We all should have listened with our spiritual ears! We all must repent of our actions! And we need to realize this, because it humbles us and makes us appreciate His loving kindness. Grace is unmerited favor. Saying that an unbeliever can't hear as opposed to won't hear removes the guilt and thus the need to repent.

 

[OzSpen]

Thanks for the post...but it does seem to be coming from the angle of the believer deciding to choose Jesus that day. I'm still of the opinion prior to regeneration we are dead to God. So dead we must be dragged to Christ... In other words we can't even hear God. For that to happen God must grant us the ability...that verse was presented above. God has to grant us grace and faith. God must give us the gift.

If it is not that way I still must ask the question.....why do we choose or not choose Jesus? I've asked that question recently and so far it has not been answered adequately.

Cygnus,

Seems to me that you are only prepared to accept one way of answering this question and people are not prepared to have you not consider what they write as you have made up your mind.

I'll try one more time, but I will not continue coming back and forth with you if you will not consider another view than being dragged into the kingdom:

1. God has displayed evidence of his existence in creation for everyone: 'For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse' (Rom 1:19-20 ESV).
   
2. Titus 2:11 (ESV) states, 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'. When did this grace appear? It came with the death of Jesus. For whom was salvation brought? ALL people. This is affirmed also in 1 John 2:2 (ESV).
3. How do people get to the point of responding positively to Jesus message? That is stated clearly in Rom 10:17 (ESV), 'So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ'. The Gospel needs to be proclaimed in vocal form or in print for people to hear it.
4. All the while, God is drawing people (NOT dragging them) according to John 6:44 (ESV): 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day'.
5. Therefore, when the Gospel is proclaimed to anyone anywhere in the world, the preacher can say honestly with Paul and Silas, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household' (Acts 16:31 ESV).
6. Then there is the responsibility of discipling the new convert (Matt 28:18-20 ESV).

I don't expect you will like these 6 steps, but they are God's plan of the Gospel, its proclamation, and how people receive it.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Regeneration happens first. You can't even repent or believe unless your "alive". The bible is clear we are dead in our sins and trespasses..and jesus Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved

Of course we speak in linear terms....a time line, but some of the events in our salvation happen at the exact same time.

Here you go with another red herring. You did not address the points I made. Salvation, regeneration, becoming born again happen simultaneously as I've demonstrated to you. Regeneration prior to salvation is a Calvinistic promotion intended to support unconditional election and irresistible grace.

 

[Butch5]

God has to regenerate us before we can even begin to believe.
John 3:3

No He doesn't

 

[K2CHRIST]

Cygnus,

Seems to me that you are only prepared to accept one way of answering this question and people are not prepared to have you not consider what they write as you have made up your mind.

I'll try one more time, but I will not continue coming back and forth with you if you will not consider another view than being dragged into the kingdom:

1. God has displayed evidence of his existence in creation for everyone: 'For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse' (Rom 1:19-20 ESV).
   
2. Titus 2:11 (ESV) states, 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'. When did this grace appear? It came with the death of Jesus. For whom was salvation brought? ALL people. This is affirmed also in 1 John 2:2 (ESV).
3. How do people get to the point of responding positively to Jesus message? That is stated clearly in Rom 10:17 (ESV), 'So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ'. The Gospel needs to be proclaimed in vocal form or in print for people to hear it.
4. All the while, God is drawing people (NOT dragging them) according to John 6:44 (ESV): 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day'.
5. Therefore, when the Gospel is proclaimed to anyone anywhere in the world, the preacher can say honestly with Paul and Silas, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household' (Acts 16:31 ESV).
6. Then there is the responsibility of discipling the new convert (Matt 28:18-20 ESV).

I don't expect you will like these 6 steps, but they are God's plan of the Gospel, its proclamation, and how people receive it.

Oz

Nice post!!

I don't know about others, but that is a nice summary based upon my experience and understanding.

 

[childeye]

Cygnus,

Seems to me that you are only prepared to accept one way of answering this question and people are not prepared to have you not consider what they write as you have made up your mind.

I'll try one more time, but I will not continue coming back and forth with you if you will not consider another view than being dragged into the kingdom:

1. God has displayed evidence of his existence in creation for everyone: 'For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse' (Rom 1:19-20 ESV).
   
2. Titus 2:11 (ESV) states, 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'. When did this grace appear? It came with the death of Jesus. For whom was salvation brought? ALL people. This is affirmed also in 1 John 2:2 (ESV).
3. How do people get to the point of responding positively to Jesus message? That is stated clearly in Rom 10:17 (ESV), 'So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ'. The Gospel needs to be proclaimed in vocal form or in print for people to hear it.
4. All the while, God is drawing people (NOT dragging them) according to John 6:44 (ESV): 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day'.
5. Therefore, when the Gospel is proclaimed to anyone anywhere in the world, the preacher can say honestly with Paul and Silas, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household' (Acts 16:31 ESV).
6. Then there is the responsibility of discipling the new convert (Matt 28:18-20 ESV).

I don't expect you will like these 6 steps, but they are God's plan of the Gospel, its proclamation, and how people receive it.

Oz

I could be wrong, but when I read Cygnus saying "dragged into the kingdom", I think he simply means that mankind is only carnally motivated apart from God's grace. I see it as a form of humility in acknowledgment to a persons own stubborn vanity, and a tribute to God's long-suffering. This is probably a matter of degrees on a case by case basis. Some people have to hit rock bottom, while others do not.

I therefore am speculating that he wants to know why a person believes, so as to identify the power of the Truth and how a person is enabled to believe. If we answer through faith, then where does the faith come from? If we answer through hearing of the Gospel, then why do some people not believe when they hear it? These are all valid questions that nobody is addressing with any precise answers.

 

[Deborah13]

The Truth is hard to ignore. It seems that God allows people in according to His timetable. Is there a scripture that counters these ones?
Romans 6:17
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

When we look at the word translated as 'ordained' it means to place, set, dispose, appoint.
Who were some of those who were set or disposed to believe the Gospel, In verse 43 we see devout proselytes and Jews. They had the right attitude to want to please God so they were open to receive.
Who were some of those who were not disposed to believe the Gospel. In verse 45 we see the Jews who when they saw the many who came to hear the Paul, they zealously opposed what Paul said. They were thinking about how Paul was stealing their thunder rather than being open to what Paul said. They closed their ears to the message.

Mat 23:13 `Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut up the reign of the heavens before men, for ye do not go in, nor those going in do ye suffer to enter.

 

[childeye]

When we look at the word translated as 'ordained' it means to place, set, dispose, appoint.
Who were some of those who were set or disposed to believe the Gospel, In verse 43 we see devout proselytes and Jews. They had the right attitude to want to please God so they were open to receive.
Who were some of those who were not disposed to believe the Gospel. In verse 45 we see the Jews who when they saw the many who came to hear the Paul, they zealously opposed what Paul said. They were thinking about how Paul was stealing their thunder rather than being open to what Paul said. They closed their ears to the message.

Mat 23:13 `Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut up the reign of the heavens before men, for ye do not go in, nor those going in do ye suffer to enter.

I see vanity at work in these that don't believe. It appears to always be the case. People aren't freely choosing, God is sifting. Isaiah 30:28.

 

[Deborah13]

I see vanity at work in these that don't believe. It appears to always be the case.

Yes, at least in most cases.

 

[childeye]

Yes, at least in most cases.

Vanity is based upon belief in a lie or a false premise. Many lies can be built upon one false premise. And for each individual person, the diminishing of such vanity is a matter of a case by case systematic dismantling of a structure of deception. At the heart is a false image of god that leaves a person ungrateful and complacent. I'm not saying that vanity can ever be completely eliminated, since all it takes for vanity to manifest, is to begin taking God for granted.

 

[OzSpen]

No He doesn't

I agree with your conclusion but you have only given us your assertion here. Why don't you give biblical teaching to demonstrate that this statement is not true, 'God has to regenerate us before we can even begin to believe. John 3:3'.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Nice post!!

I don't know about others, but that is a nice summary based upon my experience and understanding.

Thank you K2CHRIST for your encouragement. I tried to make it a brief summary, based on Scripture.