Salvation belongs to the Lord.

[Butch5]

I agree with your conclusion but you have only given us your assertion here. Why don't you give biblical teaching to demonstrate that this statement is not true, 'God has to regenerate us before we can even begin to believe. John 3:3'.

Oz

I simply replied to an assertion with another assertion.

 

[Malachi]

God has to regenerate us before we can even begin to believe.

Quite the opposite. See Romans 10:9-17)
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved... So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Cygnus]

Cygnus,

Seems to me that you are only prepared to accept one way of answering this question and people are not prepared to have you not consider what they write as you have made up your mind.

I'll try one more time, but I will not continue coming back and forth with you if you will not consider another view than being dragged into the kingdom:

1. God has displayed evidence of his existence in creation for everyone: 'For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse' (Rom 1:19-20 ESV).
   
2. Titus 2:11 (ESV) states, 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'. When did this grace appear? It came with the death of Jesus. For whom was salvation brought? ALL people. This is affirmed also in 1 John 2:2 (ESV).
3. How do people get to the point of responding positively to Jesus message? That is stated clearly in Rom 10:17 (ESV), 'So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ'. The Gospel needs to be proclaimed in vocal form or in print for people to hear it.
4. All the while, God is drawing people (NOT dragging them) according to John 6:44 (ESV): 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day'.
5. Therefore, when the Gospel is proclaimed to anyone anywhere in the world, the preacher can say honestly with Paul and Silas, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household' (Acts 16:31 ESV).
6. Then there is the responsibility of discipling the new convert (Matt 28:18-20 ESV).

I don't expect you will like these 6 steps, but they are God's plan of the Gospel, its proclamation, and how people receive it.

Oz

You ended with...."I don't expect you will like these 6 steps, but they are God's plan of the Gospel, its proclamation, and how people receive it."

You say it's Gods plan...OK, doesn't matter...the question is WHY do people not accept Gods plan?
As you see you haven't even come close to answering the question. I'm not saying that to be a jerk, I'm saying it because it's true.

One thing I do know as the scriptures you provided support...God is involved with salvation. Unless God opens your heart like He did with Lydia...you can't hear the gospel and accept it. The cross is a foolish stumbling block to those God hasn't granted the ability to understand. (1st Cor 1:23) (John 6:65)

Salvation is zero percent you and 100% Christ.

 

[Cygnus]

Yes, the passage says God opened her heart. It doesn't say, if God didn't she never would have believed.

Yeah, you're right it doesn't...but when one understand the context it implies that if God didn't open her heart she would not have believed. The clear simple understanding of the verse tells us God opened her heart and she believed....The conclusion is if God didn't open her heart she would not have believed.

 

[Butch5]

Yeah, you're right it doesn't...but when one understand the context it implies that if God didn't open her heart she would not have believed. The clear simple understanding of the verse tells us God opened her heart and she believed....The conclusion is if God didn't open her heart she would not have believed.

That's an imposition. There's nothing implied. If she was an evil person then I might see your point. However, there's nothing to suggest she was.

 

[Cygnus]

Quite the opposite. See Romans 10:9-17)
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved... So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Those verses have to be looked at in light of Romans 8:30...
And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

I think a lot of the "process" happens at the same time.

 

[Cygnus]

That's an imposition. There's nothing implied. If she was an evil person then I might see your point. However, there's nothing to suggest she was.

Shrug. Sorry. I doubt if your view will preach.

 

[OzSpen]

I simply replied to an assertion with another assertion.

That doesn't provide answers to the issue being discussed. Please provide Scripture that confirms that regeneration is not prior to conversion/salvation.

 

[OzSpen]

You ended with...."I don't expect you will like these 6 steps, but they are God's plan of the Gospel, its proclamation, and how people receive it."

You say it's Gods plan...OK, doesn't matter...the question is WHY do people not accept Gods plan?
As you see you haven't even come close to answering the question. I'm not saying that to be a jerk, I'm saying it because it's true.

One thing I do know as the scriptures you provided support...God is involved with salvation. Unless God opens your heart like He did with Lydia...you can't hear the gospel and accept it. The cross is a foolish stumbling block to those God hasn't granted the ability to understand. (1st Cor 1:23) (John 6:65)

Salvation is zero percent you and 100% Christ.

Cygnus,

Acts 7:51 (ESV) disagrees with your perspective, '“You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.'

It's called choice!!! People who are unregenerate CHOOSE to resist the Holy Spirit's drawing to salvation.

Salvation is 100% of the Lord, but it won't happen unless human beings choose to not resist the Holy Spirit. 'Choose this day whom you will serve' (Josh 24:15 ESV).

As I told you in my last post, I don't expect you to accept the 6 points I made. Seems as though I should have made a 7th point to satisfy your needs:

7. Non-Christians resist the Holy Spirit's drawing to salvation (Acts 7:51 ESV). Salvation is 100% from the Lord but there will be no salvation until people CHOOSE to respond to God's offer. 'Choose this day whom you will serve' (Josh 24:15 ESV). The longer people live in sin, the more their hearts are hardened (Eph 4:17-19 ESV). There are a number of reasons why people resist salvation. See, 'Why do people reject Jesus as their Savior?' (Got Questions?)

Oz

 

[Butch5]

That doesn't provide answers to the issue being discussed. Please provide Scripture that confirms that regeneration is not prior to conversion/salvation.

Neither does the assertion that was made, that's the point.

 

[OzSpen]

Neither does the assertion that was made, that's the point.

Why don't you answer what I write? I'm asking for you to demonstrate from Scripture that regeneration is not prior to salvation/conversion? I've already provided my biblical evidence.

Oz

 

[Butch5]

Why don't you answer what I write? I'm asking for you to demonstrate from Scripture that regeneration is not prior to salvation/conversion? I've already provided my biblical evidence.

Oz

Because I was in a discussion with someone else and that comment was made to them. If you agree with what I said why do you want my evidence?

 

[OzSpen]

Because I was in a discussion with someone else and that comment was made to them. If you agree with what I said why do you want my evidence?

Because assertions mean nothing but personal opinion, unless they are corroborated by other evidence.

 

[Butch5]

Because assertions mean nothing but personal opinion, unless they are corroborated by other evidence.

I agree, however, the statement was made to someone else. Either way, the regeneration takes place when Jesus returns.

 

[OzSpen]

I agree, however, the statement was made to someone else. Either way, the regeneration takes place when Jesus returns.

What???

 

[K2CHRIST]

I see vanity at work in these that don't believe. It appears to always be the case. People aren't freely choosing, God is sifting. Isaiah 30:28.

All people have some vanity (sin) in them, whether they are a believer of not. And because of that and the fact that God gave us freedom to make choices (freewill) people don't normally go looking for God. We think we know best. So God has to get our attention. Yet not all will even pay attention to God enough to believe. Those are not willing to repent of their ways even though God is trying to get their attention.

Moses was a murderer. He had felt strong enough about his ability to judge right and wrong that he kill a man. There is some vanity in that. God did not drag Moses into action, but present a burning bush as a sign. Moses still had to make a decision to turn from the way he was going and go see the burning bush.

Ex 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

So God does things that get our attention, and the question is whether we will (decide by our will) to turn aside from our way. There is no boasting in such a case. God caused the burning bush. God got the attention of Moses. But Moses still made a decision to turn aside. Sure we can say, "Vanity of vanitites,! All is vanity." (Ecc 1:2) and be correct, but it doesn't change the fact that a person needs to make a choice to repent/turn aside.

 

[Cygnus]

Cygnus,

Acts 7:51 (ESV) disagrees with your perspective, '“You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.'

It's called choice!!! People who are unregenerate CHOOSE to resist the Holy Spirit's drawing to salvation.

Salvation is 100% of the Lord, but it won't happen unless human beings choose to not resist the Holy Spirit. 'Choose this day whom you will serve' (Josh 24:15 ESV).

As I told you in my last post, I don't expect you to accept the 6 points I made. Seems as though I should have made a 7th point to satisfy your needs:

7. Non-Christians resist the Holy Spirit's drawing to salvation (Acts 7:51 ESV). Salvation is 100% from the Lord but there will be no salvation until people CHOOSE to respond to God's offer. 'Choose this day whom you will serve' (Josh 24:15 ESV). The longer people live in sin, the more their hearts are hardened (Eph 4:17-19 ESV). There are a number of reasons why people resist salvation. See, 'Why do people reject Jesus as their Savior?' (Got Questions?)

Oz

Nore from Got Questions...
Since Scripture is very clear that all of man is affected by sin and so much so that “no one seeks after God,” then how can anyone possibly become a Christian? The answer is that God must overcome man’s depravity in such a way that man is able to recognize his spiritual state and his hopeless condition apart from the grace of God. Man’s spiritually blind eyes must be open and the bondage of sin that renders him hopelessly enslaved must be broken so that he can respond in faith to the gospel message and the atoning work of Christ on the cross. Some Christians believe that God accomplishes this through some type of universal grace whereby God brings man to a condition where he has the ability to choose or reject Him. Others believe that for a man who is “dead in trespasses and sins” to be able to understand and respond to the gospel in faith, he must first be born again or regenerated by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3). It is only after God infuses spiritual life into a dead sinner that he can “see the kingdom of God.” Those that hold this view see this as being a sovereign act of God, whereby men are born again “not of the blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:12-13).

 

[OzSpen]

Nore from Got Questions...
Since Scripture is very clear that all of man is affected by sin and so much so that “no one seeks after God,” then how can anyone possibly become a Christian? The answer is that God must overcome man’s depravity in such a way that man is able to recognize his spiritual state and his hopeless condition apart from the grace of God. Man’s spiritually blind eyes must be open and the bondage of sin that renders him hopelessly enslaved must be broken so that he can respond in faith to the gospel message and the atoning work of Christ on the cross. Some Christians believe that God accomplishes this through some type of universal grace whereby God brings man to a condition where he has the ability to choose or reject Him. Others believe that for a man who is “dead in trespasses and sins” to be able to understand and respond to the gospel in faith, he must first be born again or regenerated by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3). It is only after God infuses spiritual life into a dead sinner that he can “see the kingdom of God.” Those that hold this view see this as being a sovereign act of God, whereby men are born again “not of the blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:12-13).

How can anyone possibly become a Christian? Titus 2:11 (ESV) unlocks the 'secret': 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'.

Oz

 

[Cygnus]

How can anyone possibly become a Christian? Titus 2:11 (ESV) unlocks the 'secret': 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'.

Oz

Are you a universalist? All humankind will be saved?

 

[childeye]

All people have some vanity (sin) in them, whether they are a believer of not. And because of that and the fact that God gave us freedom to make choices (freewill) people don't normally go looking for God. We think we know best. So God has to get our attention. Yet not all will even pay attention to God enough to believe. Those are not willing to repent of their ways even though God is trying to get their attention.

Moses was a murderer. He had felt strong enough about his ability to judge right and wrong that he kill a man. There is some vanity in that. God did not drag Moses into action, but present a burning bush as a sign. Moses still had to make a decision to turn from the way he was going and go see the burning bush.

Ex 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

So God does things that get our attention, and the question is whether we will (decide by our will) to turn aside from our way. There is no boasting in such a case. God caused the burning bush. God got the attention of Moses. But Moses still made a decision to turn aside. Sure we can say, "Vanity of vanitites,! All is vanity." (Ecc 1:2) and be correct, but it doesn't change the fact that a person needs to make a choice to repent/turn aside.

Respectfully, I don't see how making choices has anything to do with it. As far as I can tell, all of the animals and even the bugs make choices.

Vanity corrupts the spirit, which alters the way we see things, which alters our choices, just as blindness and ignorance affects our choices.

For example, the spirit behind freewill is founded upon the belief that the will is not subject to any higher power, for how else is it concluded that it is free to determine it's own course? I even believe that this is what Satan believed within himself, when he said in his heart, that he will ascend his throne above the stars of heaven even unto the throne of God. And this is what he preached in the garden of Eden when he said we could disobey God and live. Freewill is vanity. See the prodigal son.