Salvation belongs to the Lord.

[K2CHRIST]

I believe that the reason that you don't see how my testimony and the bible match up with the idea that man has a will but not a free will, is because of how you apply the term "free" in front of "will". You have been concerned with pointing to the occurrence of a decision being made so as to establish a free will. While I am not only conceding that we do make decisions, I also am addressing the actual spirit behind the word free will, which implies personal responsibility for the choice, and not just the ability to choose. The term "free", the way I perceive you are using it, serves to not recognize that there are any higher powers that move the will to do either good or evil, and therefore holds to blame the individual, whom I would see as blind and held captive. 2 Timothy 2:26, 2 Timothy 3:13. Romans 6:17, Philippians 2:13.

If you believe the person is held captive in such a way as to not be able to make a decision for good or evil and only a decision for evil, then they can not be justly held responsible for their actions!!

Yet God who is just does hold them responsible for their actions!

So the problem is either that God is an unjust God or the person does have freedom to choose between good and evil. And we see that man did in fact eat of the tree of knowledge of both good and evil. (Gen 2:9, Gen 2:17, Gen 3:5, Gen 3:22) And now you are saying that man doesn't have a knowledge of both good and evil because they are blinded and held captive. I say that even a blind person that is held captive still has a knowledge of both good and evil and still has the freedom to choose.

Do you think that if I poked out the eyes of a man and put him in prison with evil men that he still would have some knowledge of good and evil? I don't think so! That man may have trouble finding a way out, but he still has the knowledge and the ability to think freely and discern between the two. So if someone that does see shows him the way out he could choose freely choose it, despite the situation he is in. And infact all men have been shown because Paul wrote that the gospel had already been preached to the entire world, apparently by angels, so there is no excuse.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

So the blindness and imprisonment of man is as much self inflected because we choose evil and sin, over God! And God has made a was through the cross to repent, which is again a decision that can be made regardless of men's predisposition.

You are making an excuse for men, but there is none.

For example you reference and apparently interpret Phil 2:13 as if Phil 2:12 had never been read.

Phil 2:13 but it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure

A person might think be reading that verse along that God is doing all the work and controlling the person's will. But the prior verse already explains that a choice was made by that person.

Phil 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling:

That verse proceeds the one you quoted. The obeying came first. The man was working out their salvation first, then we see God at work in the person, and God willing to work for His good pleasure. So you got it backwards according to what was written in Philippians because you didn't read the first verse and consider what it said.

God has left a testimony, and men (all men) need to choose God and He will come into them and eat with them.

Jesus Christ stands at the door and knocks, and if anyone (even a blind man in prison) hears HIs voice and opens the door He will come into them! (Rev 3:20) Even a blind man can hear in the worst situation can hear!! And even a blind man in the worst situation can freely make a choice. Even a blind man can come to Jesus!

Mat 9:28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

 

[K2CHRIST]

There are things we have no say in, like where, when, and who we are born to. But that doesn't mean we don't have the ability to choose God.

And there are things we want to do but might be kept from doing them, like talking to the President in the Oval Office. But God wants to talk to you in the temple of God, and that can be in you.

Now there is an evil one and he has followers who will tell you that God does not want to know you, and you can not just choose to talk to God. Those little angry spirit who hate God does not understand that God wishes that all should come to Him. Still, God gave life and the ability to choose. Maybe you can't choose everything or can choose but do not have the freedom to just do everything, but choosing God is not one of the things. He wants none to perish. So for now you can choose God today and everyday, or you may not choose God today, but still a day will come that if you haven't chosen God that ability will be taken away and hell awaits. So choose God today, and don't make excuses for you or for others. We need to choose Him, today.

 

[childeye]

If you believe the person is held captive in such a way as to not be able to make a decision for good or evil and only a decision for evil, then they can not be justly held responsible for their actions!!

Exactly. This is righteous and sound judgment. And finally we come to the reason why free will is a foundational lie. With your own words, you may now see why many of the Pharisees are hypocritical in their judgment and blind leaders of the blind. Even because they believe that all men see clearly so as to choose freely between good and evil. Hence they hold that everyone is to be responsible for the infirmity of sinful flesh, while blind to their own weak and sinful flesh, and therefore are clearly seen as without mercy or understanding.
Matthew 9:11, 12.
11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
John 9:41.
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth

Yet God who is just does hold them responsible for their actions!

God is indeed just. So since sin is a sickness, just as Jesus taught above, and which all men do suffer from in some degree, God therefore justly holds people responsible for their sin, only according to how much they hold others responsible for theirs, just as Jesus taught here:
Matthew 7:1.
Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? ...
So we can see from Jesus' teaching, that it is indeed possible for God to not hold us responsible for our actions, but that is contingent upon giving up on this free will theology that holds people responsible for their actions.

So the problem is either that God is an unjust God or the person does have freedom to choose between good and evil.

What you are presenting is a false dichotomy. As Jesus has shown above, God is perfectly just to let those who condemn others, be condemned by their own judgment and those who forgive to be forgiven. Matthew 5:7. After all, those that think men are free to choose between good and evil, are still under Satan's lie in the garden. The knowledge brought death and corruption, just as God said, and not freedom and self determination as Satan said.

And we see that man did in fact eat of the tree of knowledge of both good and evil. (Gen 2:9, Gen 2:17, Gen 3:5, Gen 3:22) And now you are saying that man doesn't have a knowledge of both good and evil because they are blinded and held captive.

I'm saying that men are held captive to the lie that the knowledge of good and evil gives each person a free will in the moral/immoral purview. I'm saying that the knowledge of good and evil corrupted mankind. That is why God said we would die if we ate of it. See below how before eating that they were pure of heart and not corrupted:
Genesis 2:25
And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Now see below that they were corrupted after eating and no longer pure of heart:
8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

I say that even a blind person that is held captive still has a knowledge of both good and evil and still has the freedom to choose.
That man may have trouble finding a way out, but he still has the knowledge and the ability to think freely and discern between the two. So if someone that does see shows him the way out he could choose freely choose it, despite the situation he is in.

The knowledge of good and evil didn't ever give mankind the freedom to choose to decide for ourselves between good and evil, as claimed by Satan. Why? Because Love is what makes a man righteous on the inside, and God is Love. It is the inward parts that make a man clean and not the outward appearance of actions. Matthew 23:26. A blind man doesn't discern this if he thinks that righteousness is a decision rather than a Spiritual presence. Therefore Christ is not about showing a blind person the way out, Christ is about removing the blindness. Christ is about revealing Who God is, and removing that ignorance.

And in fact all men have been shown because Paul wrote that the gospel had already been preached to the entire world, apparently by angels, so there is no excuse.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

Paul is not talking about the Gospel in Romans 1:20. Paul is talking about how men have no excuse for not esteeming God as God. Imagine if you will, that every man was given a measure of wisdom by God their Maker. But men imagined, that they themselves were wise according to their own self determination, and they therefore did not attribute that wisdom to the providence of their Maker. And so being unthankful, men became vain. 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

So the blindness and imprisonment of man is as much self inflected because we choose evil and sin, over God!

We know that men were unthankful to God for wisdom. We know that men became vain in self glory because of this. So that much we are responsible for, since we cannot deny that whatever is good within us, must be attributed to the Glory of our Maker, and not to ourselves. For men are corruptible creatures just as every creature that was ever made. But God is incorruptible and the Creator, not the creature.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.
And because in our vanity we had changed the Glory of the incorruptible God into an image of a corruptible creature, the problem was not that we chose sin and evil over God. The problem was that we thought more of ourselves than we did of God. Therefore I believe that God gave men over to the lusts of our flesh, to show what becomes of us without Him.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[childeye]

There are things we have no say in, like where, when, and who we are born to. But that doesn't mean we don't have the ability to choose God.

And there are things we want to do but might be kept from doing them, like talking to the President in the Oval Office. But God wants to talk to you in the temple of God, and that can be in you.

Now there is an evil one and he has followers who will tell you that God does not want to know you, and you can not just choose to talk to God. Those little angry spirit who hate God does not understand that God wishes that all should come to Him. Still, God gave life and the ability to choose. Maybe you can't choose everything or can choose but do not have the freedom to just do everything, but choosing God is not one of the things. He wants none to perish. So for now you can choose God today and everyday, or you may not choose God today, but still a day will come that if you haven't chosen God that ability will be taken away and hell awaits. So choose God today, and don't make excuses for you or for others. We need to choose Him, today.

Satan is clever. He is transformed into an angel of Light and so also are his servants claiming to be representing God. They promise liberty, when they themselves are slaves. Look at those who claimed they were representing God while killing the Christ. This is the simple fact. God is Love and love doesn't desire to hurt anyone, but to serve everyone.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

 

[childeye]

And God has made a way through the cross to repent, which is again a decision that can be made regardless of men's predisposition.

Yes God has made a way according to the purpose of His Grace, as this scripture shows here: 1 Corinthians 1:20-29.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

You are making an excuse for men, but there is none.

I'm saying there's no excuse for worshipping the creature over the Creator by believing that we are morally and immorally self determined.

For example you reference and apparently interpret Phil 2:13 as if Phil 2:12 had never been read.

Phil 2:13 but it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure

A person might think by reading that verse alone that God is doing all the work and controlling the person's will. But the prior verse already explains that a choice was made by that person.

Phil 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling:

That verse proceeds the one you quoted. The obeying came first. The man was working out their salvation first, then we see God at work in the person, and God willing to work for His good pleasure. So you got it backwards according to what was written in Philippians because you didn't read the first verse and consider what it said.

The obedience to the faith that you are referring to, is that all those in Christ will Love one another so as to be One body and One mind in Christ. I read it as saying that when we are walking in His Spirit, we are acknowledging that it is God who is at work in us since He is Love. Hence we work out our salvation by walking in the Spirit of Christ. I don't think you would disagree with that.

Jesus Christ stands at the door and knocks, and if anyone (even a blind man in prison) hears HIs voice and opens the door He will come into them! (Rev 3:20) Even a blind man can hear in the worst situation can hear!! And even a blind man in the worst situation can freely make a choice. Even a blind man can come to Jesus!

This verse is written to one of the seven churches. It should not be applied to mean it pertains to the preaching of the Gospel. It reads to me that Jesus is saying, I'm speaking here and saying this for a reason, if anyone listens attentively and takes it to heart, they will be blessed by my words. As concerning the Gospel however, when we read the parable of the sower, that's how Jesus reveals how it is for those hearts where the seed is sown.

Mat 9:28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

They had to believe to be healed. Please read these two verses:
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father

So Jesus is knocking on the door of the heart with these words too. If a person doesn't listen or care what Jesus says, some would call that a freely made choice. But Jesus is saying that you can't hear me because you're not of God.
John 8:47
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[K2CHRIST]

Satan is clever. He is transformed into an angel of Light and so also are his servants claiming to be representing God. They promise liberty, when they themselves are slaves. Look at those who claimed they were representing God while killing the Christ. This is the simple fact. God is Love and love doesn't desire to hurt anyone, but to serve everyone.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

What does this have to do with our posting? You wrote some things but didn't apply them to you position that people can not choose God because they are blinded and in chains.

Satan is clever. So who is it that tells people that they can not choose God?

So we have someone saying that others are blind and in chains so they can not choose God? Let's tell them they can choose God because Jesus Christ went to the cross and forgave their sins.

I primarily associate with Charismatic Christian, but appreciate others. For example I like the teachings of Smith Wigglesworth. In a Devotiona from Whitaker House pub.l created to him it's written:.

"Many people who are called miss the call because they are dull of hearing. There is something in the call, beloved. "Many are called, but few are chosen" (Marr 22:14). And how will the choice be made? The choice is always your choice first. You will find that gifts are your choice first. You will find that salvation is your choice. God has made it all, but you have to choose. God wants you to make an inward call, to be in a great intercessory condition of imploring the Holy One to prepare you for that wonderful spiritual body."

Now I don't agree with Smith Wigglesworth because he is Smith Wigglesworth, but because he makes sense. It is written in the Scriptures that you have not because you have not asked. And this is true with salvation. God makes the call to us, but people don't return the call by choosing God's free gift of salvation, nor His spiritual gifts either. And saying that a person can not choose God because of what Satan is doing in their life is non-sense! It is nothing more than an excuse people have for not wanting all that God has available to them.

Yes Satan is doing what he can to keep people from choosing God. He even tries blinding them to the truth by telling them they are not able to choose God right now! Still, even if they are blind, in chains, oppressed, depressed, tormented in chains, and afflicted by Satan in everyway, they can choose God right now!! They have the freedom to choose God now no matter what their situation!! But a time of judgement comes and a degree will be handed down by God. It is not Satan that keeps a person from heaven, nor Satan that throws someone into the lake of fire. God is still God and He controls things! So people need to choose God and now!

1 Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[K2CHRIST]

I'm saying there's no excuse for worshipping the creature over the Creator by believing that we are morally and immorally self determined.

This makes no sense. If I am not morally and immorally self determined, then I can not be blamed for moral or immoral actions.

We don't imprison a mountain lion if they kill a person. We might kill a mountain lion who killed a person to protect the people, but we don't hold the mountain lion morally responsible for the actions. Yet God does hold us morally responsible and we understand that we have moral responsibility. All people understand that we have some moral responsibility. C. S. Lewis uses that as an argument that God must exist in his book Mere Christianity.

You are saying that we are not morally or immorally self determined, which is complete nonsense. It like running a stop sign then try to tell the cop you are not responsible for your actions. You a pleading a case of insanity.

 

[childeye]

This makes no sense. If I am not morally and immorally self determined, then I can not be blamed for moral or immoral actions.

I have already addressed this in post #163. Perhaps if you are moved to, you might go back and re-read what the Christ said to the Pharisees about sin being a sickness. I'll say it again. Jesus said that sin is a sickness. You can call it nonsense all you want, but Jesus said it for a deliberate reason. It would be beneficial for you to understand and comprehend so that your mind can be washed by the Truth of the Word. But it makes perfect sense to me, since I would count anyone who would freely choose to sin, as sick or insane. Moreover, not only does Jesus not blame you for your sin/sickness/insanity, but nor can you blame anyone else, which is the consequence of being washed by His Word. Romans 3:19. This is very important to understand, because anyone who condemns others for their actions, stands condemned in themselves, because we all do the same. Romans 2:1. If you despise this teaching, then you cannot be led to repentance. Romans 2:4, 5.

We don't imprison a mountain lion if they kill a person. We might kill a mountain lion who killed a person to protect the people, but we don't hold the mountain lion morally responsible for the actions. Yet God does hold us morally responsible and we understand that we have moral responsibility. All people understand that we have some moral responsibility. C. S. Lewis uses that as an argument that God must exist in his book Mere Christianity.

In my best humility, I would like to point out, that to blame people for being sick, is not acting morally responsible, and is unrighteousness. It may seem to be wise according to the wisdom of this world, but it's insanity upon insanity, evil for evil. I not only believe Jesus when he says that sin is a sickness, but I am convinced of it, having been cured myself by the washing of the Truth. Titus 3:5.

You are saying that we are not morally or immorally self determined, which is complete nonsense. It like running a stop sign then try to tell the cop you are not responsible for your actions. You a pleading a case of insanity.

You are going to the law here for righteousness, to prove that we are morally and immorally self determined. So yes according to the wisdom of this world, being under the law, it is complete nonsense to claim we are not morally or immorally responsible. But it's blatantly obvious to me, that any person who would run stop signs in a complete and reckless disregard for themselves and for others, is insane. It's even more insane to say that they are sane people who would do this. Christianity is not about being held morally or immorally responsible for our actions. People need to be cured of their sin/sickness by the washing of the Holy Spirit, and that's what Christianity is all about.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[childeye]

So who is it that tells people that they can not choose God?

Jhn 6:65
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father
Jhn 5:44
How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
Jhn 8:43
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Jhn 12:38
That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Jhn 12:39
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Jhn 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Isa 44:18
They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.
Jer 13:23
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil
Mat 12:34
O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Rom 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Jhn 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me
Jhn 6:65
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Jhn 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Mat 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes
Mat 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Mat 16:17
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Phl 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Jer 31:3
The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with loving kindness have I drawn thee.
Hos 11:4
I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love: and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I laid meat unto them.
Jhn 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Jhn 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day

"Many people who are called miss the call because they are dull of hearing. There is something in the call, beloved. "Many are called, but few are chosen" (Marr 22:14). And how will the choice be made? The choice is always your choice first. You will find that gifts are your choice first. You will find that salvation is your choice. God has made it all, but you have to choose. God wants you to make an inward call, to be in a great intercessory condition of imploring the Holy One to prepare you for that wonderful spiritual body."

Now I don't agree with Smith Wigglesworth because he is Smith Wigglesworth, but because he makes sense

The parable of the wedding feast is about Israel's rejection of the prophets and the Christ, and how the Gospel was then preached to the gentiles. It's not a lesson about free will, but rather a lesson about unthankfulness and vanity.

. It is written in the Scriptures that you have not because you have not asked. And this is true with salvation. God makes the call to us, but people don't return the call by choosing God's free gift of salvation, nor His spiritual gifts either. And saying that a person can not choose God because of what Satan is doing in their life is non-sense!

Ask and you will receive, seek and you shall find, would not be applicable to those who are turning down the invitation. It is applicable to those who ask in faith believing they will receive. For Jesus said if we ask for bread God would not give us a stone. I use this very statement when I ask things of God. God has always given me bread unto life.

Yes Satan is doing what he can to keep people from choosing God. He even tries blinding them to the truth by telling them they are not able to choose God right now!

I would think that anyone can believe the Gospel when they understand it. I've already said that. But, only through the Holy Spirit can one confess Jesus as Lord from the heart. Let's be forthright with one another. Do you see where Jesus says this? John 6:65 And he said, "Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." I believe what Jesus says here. So are you saying that I am deceived by Satan because I believe that no man can come to Christ unless it is given by God to come?

 

[K2CHRIST]

Is 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

Jesus came in the flesh and became fully man along with fully God. He sat the example of how we (men) should and could have been. He refused evil and choose good. It was a decision He made being full a man. It was a decision we can make. But we don't choose God and instead we choose selfishness. Thus we choose evil. We have the freedom to choose good or evil, and that choose is regularly made. We can choose to talk to God today, or we can choose not to talk to God today. We can choose to listen to God's instructions today or not.

Now someone comes alone and says we don't have that choice. That is non-sense, because God said that all who seek find.

And that someone to support his position shows that men choose evil with numerous verses. Well that is true, but none of them take away from the fact that we can choose good (God) and do so today. So let me take a few of these verses and show how the conclusion drawn is wrong.

Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

God gave us the ability and freedom to choose. And salvation is the gift God gave to all man kind at the cross. God can hide, but the heavens and the earth testify about Him, so His hiding is only to get you to seek Him. Like a game of peek-a-boo. So the wrong conclusion is any conclusion that suggest the God does not want this person or that person to believe in Him. And that is what some that does want all people to know the Lord would promote.

Eph 2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Jesus went to the cross not us. That gave (not will give some men but not others, but all men) the forgiveness of sins, so even men who choose evil instead of good and still come before the throne of God. And even Jesus did that after saying, "not My will but your will be done' to the Father. So the wrong conclusion is telling someone that they are boasting because the tell others to choose Jesus Christ. It is nothing more than a poorly disguised accusation. So choose Jesus Christ (God) and choose Him today, and don't listen to the accuser who wants to tell you that thinking you can choose Him is an act of pride. An act of Pride would be to think that you don't need to choose Him today.

Phl 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Now this is what I am talking about. We all have been given Christ and can choose to talk to Him today. He is called the Word of God (Rev 19:13) because we can talk to Him and He stands at the door knocking to all men, hoping they will hear His voice and open up to Him. (Rev 3:20). So I see this verse perfectly explaining what I am trying to tell people, which is to seek the Lord. Christ has been given! At the cross He said it is finished! So it is not that Christ will be given to you. Thinking that He still has to be given to some men is the mistake!

I could go on one by one, but we all have the Bible which explains we can all choose the Lord Jesus Christ today!! So who wants to tell you that is not so?

 

[childeye]

Is 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

Jesus came in the flesh and became fully man along with fully God. He sat the example of how we (men) should and could have been. He refused evil and choose good. It was a decision He made being full a man. It was a decision we can make. But we don't choose God and instead we choose selfishness. Thus we choose evil. We have the freedom to choose good or evil, and that choose is regularly made.

Sure, Jesus was fully man and fully God, and that is what makes him the Christ. I will not say that's how men could have been and should have been. But I will say that the Christ is how men should be and could be. And therefore I am confident that becoming transformed into the likeness of Christ, cannot be done without the Holy Spirit. It certainly can't be done with a corrupt and carnal will with a false imagery of god.

But perhaps that's your point. If so, then you are making my point, that we are not self determined in the moral immoral purview. We require a spiritual rebirth to overcome the carnal will. Which necessarily means that before conversion, the will is carnal minded and chooses accordingly and not freely. It is not a free will, but is a will that is subject to sin and death. That's why Jesus did not have this so called "freedom'", to refuse the good and choose evil. And that's why, I always call the carnal desire and choice of the will, a disability to sin, and not a freedom to sin, since freedom implies an ability not a disability. So when you say that we don't choose God, because we have freedom to choose contrary to God, you really should be saying that we are slaves to sin prior to being regenerated. That's what Jesus taught, and the Apostles as well. Nor should you say that we are responsible for our actions while being confined to the ignorance of a carnal mind, since that is a state of condition that no individual can help, and is therefore only self condemning. Romans 8:7.

Another thing I would like to address. When you say that we have the freedom to choose between good and evil, I sometimes believe that you are unknowingly conflating choice/option with choice/decision. Why? Because Jesus did not ever have the so called "freedom" of will, to desire and choose evil, and refuse the good. You should by now, after our lengthy discourse, be beginning to realize that the terms "free" and "freedom" and "freely", are purely relative and subjective terms. They therefore can mean many different things and even opposite things, unless carefully qualified. So when you conflate the existence of options (good and Evil), with being responsible for the decisions we make, then you are discussing two different meanings, pertaining to a freely made choice and also a free will. For it doesn't necessarily follow that just because there are two options available, that a person is capable of choosing the right one, and therefore is responsible.

So far, these are the many different meanings of free will we have both discussed, that I can recall. 1) we make choices, as all animals do. 2) We are responsible for those choices so as to say that we are self determined in the moral/immoral purview, and therefore we are always able to choose to not sin, apart from God or Christ. 3) We are carnal minded and therefore do freely choose to do evil in servitude to the lusts and desires of the flesh. 4) We are born again through belief in Christ, and the will is transformed accordingly from carnal to spiritual, from the power of Satan to the power of God, so that we are no longer slaves to sin, but are now free to serve God. 5) We were given a free will by God in the garden, wich was made in His Image, but was innocent and without the knowledge of good and evil. 6) We ate of the knowledge of good and evil and lost our innocence and now have a free will to choose between good and evil through that knowledge, but it corrupted our prior will and we were ashamed of our nakedness and hid from God. 7) We have two choices placed before us, which means we have a free will to freely choose, which is conflating choice/option with choice/decision. However the existence of the option is not evidence that the will is able to both desire and choose, both good and evil independently, which I have said, that I think you tend to miss that.

So let's talk about where the option to sin comes from if not from our will. For example, when Jesus was tempted by Satan, he spoke the Truth every time in defiance to the lies that Satan spoke. It could be said that he freely chose, but what does that mean? It doesn't mean that Satan gave Jesus a free will to choose to desire and choose sin by supplying an option. And again, it would only be an assertion that Jesus could have freely chosen to kneel and worship Satan, if in fact he never could have desired or chosen that option. Please note, that the choice/option to do evil, was presented by Satan, it wasn't volunteered by Jesus. Jesus was being confronted with a lie apart from his volition. But since Jesus was unable to be deceived by a lie, he was never actually tempted, nor free to desire and choose evil.

So when Jesus says, that sin is a sickness and therefore not a freely made choice, he knows what he's talking about and his judgment is true. When he says that no man can come to him unless given by the Father, he knows what he's talking about and his judgment is true.

Okay, so I see that you have framed the choice as between God and selfishness. This is a good example of a deception being presented by Satan. Does it occur to us, that to Christ, this choice would be a false dichotomy? In other words, are not we our selves better served by trusting the God Who made us and the universe and everything in it? If I am selfish, I therefore should choose God always, since I want what's best for me. To even consider this choice as plausible, means that I must first ponder that either I know better than God, or that God is a liar. But I'm not going to do that if I have the Holy Spirit of Truth and personally know God, because I know it's not true. The choice is therefore a deception, which only has power if someone is gullible enough to accept the false premise hidden in the presentation. Therefore to the carnal mind, the choice appears completely legitimate. So I think what you mean is that the choice is between God and the carnal lusts. But these lusts only exist through appealing to a carnal vanity, that there's something good out there, that is better than what God has for us.

Now someone comes alone and says we don't have that choice. That is non-sense, because God said that all who seek find.

I believe if people seek God for the right reasons they will find Him. Respectfully, you're re-framing the issue as an accusation that someone is saying that it's useless to seek God because we don't have the option to do so, if we want to. That's not the case. The issue was about why Jesus said, that no man can come to him unless it is given by the Father.

I listed many people in scripture who have said we do not have self determination to be good of our own selves apart from God. To seek God with all of one's heart is to acknowledge that we need Him and are therefore not self determined. I've shown you that God chooses the lowly to reveal Himself to, while He hides things from the learned and scholarly. The point being that God wants to show us all, that He is not our prerogative, nor do we have any stature of wisdom, to decide for ourselves whether He is trustworthy or a liar according to our discretion.

Phl 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Now this is what I am talking about. We all have been given Christ and can choose to talk to Him today. He is called the Word of God (Rev 19:13) because we can talk to Him and He stands at the door knocking to all men, hoping they will hear His voice and open up to Him. (Rev 3:20). So I see this verse perfectly explaining what I am trying to tell people, which is to seek the Lord. Christ has been given! At the cross He said it is finished! So it is not that Christ will be given to you. Thinking that He still has to be given to some men is the mistake!

The scripture above says that it is given to us, to both believe in Christ and to suffer for Christ's sake. This confirms what Jesus said, that no man comes to Christ unless it is given by the Father to come. I see you've misunderstood that, since you've changed the meaning to say Christ has been crucified, so he's already been given. None of the scriptures are implying that Christ wasn't crucified.

The Word of God is always talking to us, even when we were carnal, he was there. The Word is our light and our sentience. There is no life in us apart from his presence. You do well to tell anyone and everyone to come to know the Christ, that he may confirm and quicken whatever remnant is still in us. Matthew 13:12.

But it's no mistake to say that some people can't believe the Gospel since not all do. As 1 Corinthians 1:23 shows, Christ is foolishness and a stumbling block to some. Nor does it does mean it's not possible that one day they might see and believe.

But why say choose Christ? There are many religions to choose from. Christ is revealed and not chosen. Christ is confessed, not selected. The Holy Spirit is real in the Gospel, moving a person to believe and confess.

 

[K2CHRIST]

I am confident that becoming transformed into the likeness of Christ, cannot be done without the Holy Spirit.

I think we might be getting a little closer. God alone is good. So trying to choose to be good is not going to get it done, however choosing to follow God by faith will get it done. So we can choose to repent of our ways and choose to listen to and follow the instructions of the Lord. Even then we might not be perfect, but since God knows how to instruct us even in our imperfection (because He made us and knows how we are) we can and are counted as righteous because of our faith (meaning faith in action, like James wrote about) So our moral choice is a choice of God. And we have the ability to choose God no matter what the obstacles.

Jesus did not ever have the so called "freedom" of will, to desire and choose evil, and refuse the good.

I don't understand you here. I already pointed out the verse that explain Jesus knew enough to choose good and refuse evil. And we also know the Jesus prayed that His cup would removed, but not His will but the will of the Father. So we know that He choose good and not evil, and the Father's will and not His, so how is it you claim He didn't have the freedom to choose otherwise? The simple fact that those verse of Jesus making a choice concerning His will mean that He could have chosen different. To say that since someone / anyone choose one thing so that mean they couldn't have chosen another doesn't make sense, especially when it is clear that they are making a choice. The verses didn't read that Jesus choose good and couldn't have chosen evil, nor was it written that Jesus could not have considered doing other than what the Father asked. They don't read like that! They clearly express Jesus with a personality that makes choices for God.

So perhaps a person could claim that since Jesus is fully God that He could have only made a decision for God, and that since men are men, they could only make a choice for themselves, but that can't be or else no man could ever willingly submit to God and all angels would have to have either fallen or not fallen. Also Rev 3:20 where Jesus said if anyone opens the doors He will come into them. They would not be able to open the door unless the Spirit of God was already in, and the Spirit of God would not be in unless they opened the door. No made would then be saved. So a choice must have to be made by men in response to the call of God, and that choice is an independent choice made without the force of God directly place on the man. Again, I agree with what I previously quoted form Smith Wigglesworth.

 

[smaller]

If you believe the person is held captive in such a way as to not be able to make a decision for good or evil and only a decision for evil, then they can not be justly held responsible for their actions!!

Yet God who is just does hold them responsible for their actions!

Uh, not quite.

I think most forms of christian theology try to lean one way or the other when the real answer is both simple and actually quite a bit more complex.

Example. Here is a look at Paul:

Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

In the above there is Paul. There is also "evil present" with Paul.

This was not an off and on condition of Paul. Evil was present with him, continually, all the days of his fleshly earth life. Could that evil present with him ever be justified? Uh, no! Could that evil present with him be overlooked by God? Uh, no! That evil present with Paul was continually under Gods Own Condemnation.

Let's turn up the volume on this subject a little louder:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

We see the identical principle in operations above as we can see in Romans 7:21.

There is Paul. And there is a messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh that IS NOT PAUL. It's actually fairly easy to see that the "evil present" with Paul is the messenger of Satan in Paul's own flesh. That makes TWO parties present. Paul makes the identical case in Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 and Jesus Himself says the same thing in Mark 4:15 and all the other seed parables.

One of them, Paul, can not be condemned for any reason.

The messenger of Satan (or Satan) can not be condoned for any reason.

There is the scriptural answer to this question. There are two separate and distinct standards in play and they can not be MIXED.

So the problem is either that God is an unjust God or the person does have freedom to choose between good and evil.

That question really isn't even relevant. There is no doubt that Thee Creator created the devil and his messengers and did create them both evil and resisting to Himself. That's really all there is to the subject.

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

As soon as people say that the devil created evil and made himself evil, they are really involved with polytheism. Scripture does not teach polytheism. Scriptures teaches that God created all things and all powers inclusive of the power of evil and that God created Satan and his messengers with the exact intentions to destroy them upon completion of uses, which God will probably take great pleasure in doing.

Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Some make the dire mistake of thinking this: "Well God created evil, therefore God IS evil!"

I might simply remind them that God is greater than any "thing or power" He creates and can NOT be equated with His creations. To equate God to His creation is pantheism.

A lot of freewillers are actually polytheists and pantheists, simultaneously, and don't realize it. I might observe that it is GOD HIMSELF who made them that way and they can't do a thing about it.

 

[K2CHRIST]

Uh, not quite.

I think most forms of christian theology try to lean one way or the other when the real answer is both simple and actually quite a bit more complex.

Example. Here is a look at Paul:

Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

In the above there is Paul. There is also "evil present" with Paul.

This was not an off and on condition of Paul. Evil was present with him, continually, all the days of his fleshly earth life. Could that evil present with him ever be justified? Uh, no! Could that evil present with him be overlooked by God? Uh, no! That evil present with Paul was continually under Gods Own Condemnation.

Let's turn up the volume on this subject a little louder:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

We see the identical principle in operations above as we can see in Romans 7:21.

There is Paul. And there is a messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh that IS NOT PAUL. It's actually fairly easy to see that the "evil present" with Paul is the messenger of Satan in Paul's own flesh. That makes TWO parties present. Paul makes the identical case in Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 and Jesus Himself says the same thing in Mark 4:15 and all the other seed parables.

One of them, Paul, can not be condemned for any reason.

The messenger of Satan (or Satan) can not be condoned for any reason.

There is the scriptural answer to this question. There are two separate and distinct standards in play and they can not be MIXED.



That question really isn't even relevant. There is no doubt that Thee Creator created the devil and his messengers and did create them both evil and resisting to Himself. That's really all there is to the subject.

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

As soon as people say that the devil created evil and made himself evil, they are really involved with polytheism. Scripture does not teach polytheism. Scriptures teaches that God created all things and all powers inclusive of the power of evil and that God created Satan and his messengers with the exact intentions to destroy them upon completion of uses, which God will probably take great pleasure in doing.

Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Some make the dire mistake of thinking this: "Well God created evil, therefore God IS evil!"

I might simply remind them that God is greater than any "thing or power" He creates and can NOT be equated with His creations. To equate God to His creation is pantheism.

A lot of freewillers are actually polytheists and pantheists, simultaneously, and don't realize it. I might observe that it is GOD HIMSELF who made them that way and they can't do a thing about it.

Certainly I agree that evil is present in this world. I even find that there is a battle within me, like Paul. But didn't Paul, who had the condition of evil present in Him still decide to press into the Lord and follow Him?

Phil 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Jesus Christ.

Now I am not perfect, but I find that I can each morning call upon the Lord and seek to hear His voice, or I can not seek the Lord's voice and instructions to me. Most of the time I start seeking the Lord, but many times I have not and just started going about me day. It doesn't turn out as well that way, so I turn back to seeking the Lord. Isn't that what Paul was talking about?

Now I have seen that God has done and continues to do things to convince me that seeking Him is the wise thing to do. And I also have seen that there are others, even evil, that does things to try and convince me not to seek God and His words spoken to me. Yet in seeing both good and evil I have been given a choice to choose between them. It is not a one time choice (as is so often presented in the church) but a choice of pressing into God or not, just like Paul explained.

As for condemning and condoning; Paul explained He did the things he did not wish to do. I want to follow the Lord always, but I don't always do that. I get busy, side tracked, and think with my mind which tends to lead to my ways. But I also seek the Lord daily, listen to Him when I can remember to do so, and approve the idea of constantly following the Lord. So I don't see where I or Paul approve of following evil, yet we both do the things we don't want to do.

Despite all that intense thinking, the choice is still and always very simple. Do I seek the Lord and what He has to say to me or not? I have the freedom to do either, and that choice is a constant and conscience decision. So I agree with Paul who wrote "let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained". (Phil 3:16) But neither Paul nor I achieve that, but press on, just like Paul also wrote, "Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet" (Phil 3:13)

So I am not sure why you write, "There are two separate and distinct standards in play and they can not be MIXED.", when we find both good and evil inside us. They have nothing in common, but we have them both and a battle.

And I am not sure what this: "Some make the dire mistake of thinking this: "Well God created evil, therefore God IS evil!" which you wrote have to do with this:
"If you believe the person is held captive in such a way as to not be able to make a decision for good or evil and only a decision for evil, then they can not be justly held responsible for their actions!!

Yet God who is just does hold them responsible for their actions!", which I wrote?

Are you thinking that because I say that God hold people responsible, that I am saying God is evil? My friend, it was God that made hell! And hell is an evil place! And it is God that will throw people into hell! Yet all that being said, God is not evil, but God is just! But maybe I am just missing your point?

I do see that you like to make the simple act of choosing to listen to God as complicated as possible, Jesus was not like that. You write:

A lot of freewillers are actually polytheists and pantheists, simultaneously, and don't realize it. I might observe that it is GOD HIMSELF who made them that way and they can't do a thing about it.

Jesus said, "Follow Me." (John 1:43)

That is pretty simple. So why to you make it so complicated and why do you think you can't just choice Him. The evil in us might discourage us, but it can't stop us from seeking the Lord is we decide to do so. It didn't stop Paul, he decided to press in. It seem to stop the religious Saul, but even if he had stop to think that God really did exist he could have looked to God. Saying that he didn't until the Lord meet with him on the road, doesn't mean that he couldn't have. It only means it he did stop to think about seeking the Lord. So we preach the gospel, which means they can seek and hear from the Lord, because people don't understand the options, not because they can't choice. And we ask them to make a decision to seek the Lord, knowing they can indeed make that decision!

So what us "freewillers" don't do is to tell people that they can't come to the Lord unless God allows them!!

Instead we make it simple, and the gospel is simple. Follow the Lord Jesus Christ!

 

[smaller]

Certainly I agree that evil is present in this world. I even find that there is a battle within me, like Paul. But didn't Paul, who had the condition of evil present in Him still decide to press into the Lord and follow Him?

That evil present with Paul was in his own flesh in the form of indwelling sin, which Paul described as "no longer I" twice in Romans 7:17-20. Passing this "evil present" off as somewhere else off in the world is not an accurate sight. It was in Paul's own sorry hide in the form of lusts of the flesh. Romans 7:7-13, Gal. 5:17.

Nobody who is "in truth" is going to escape these facts personally.

Phil 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Jesus Christ.

Now I am not perfect, but I find that I can each morning call upon the Lord and seek to hear His voice, or I can not seek the Lord's voice and instructions to me. Most of the time I start seeking the Lord, but many times I have not and just started going about me day. It doesn't turn out as well that way, so I turn back to seeking the Lord. Isn't that what Paul was talking about?

Not at all. Paul flat out says he DID things he hated and DID EVIL. Romans 7:15 & 19. And that is after salvation twin set statements of fact.

If you followed the gist of my prior post you might see that the messenger of Satan is directly involved in this matter, per Mark 4:15 and 2 Cor. 12:7.

Yes, we have an active adversary in these matters that is not us as Gods children.

And the battles transpire in our own flesh and mind. That's where the power of the adversary BLINDS us and keeps us from seeing how "close" this battle really is and how close the enemy really is. Eph. 2:2. Eph. 6:11-12.

Prior to being saved we didn't see this. After salvation a LOT of chrisitans see it even less, unfortunately.

The battles with our anti-spiritual adversary is between our own two ears and in our own flesh.

And yes, it is a real battle with real adversaries, closely held.

 

[K2CHRIST]

That evil present with Paul was in his own flesh in the form of indwelling sin, which Paul described as "no longer I" twice in Romans 7:17-20. Passing this "evil present" off as somewhere else off in the world is not an accurate sight. It was in Paul's own sorry hide in the form of lusts of the flesh. Romans 7:7-13, Gal. 5:17.

Nobody who is "in truth" is going to escape these facts personally.



Not at all. Paul flat out says he DID things he hated and DID EVIL. Romans 7:15 & 19. And that is after salvation twin set statements of fact.

If you followed the gist of my prior post you might see that the messenger of Satan is directly involved in this matter, per Mark 4:15 and 2 Cor. 12:7.

Yes, we have an active adversary in these matters that is not us as Gods children.

And the battles transpire in our own flesh and mind. That's where the power of the adversary BLINDS us and keeps us from seeing how "close" this battle really is and how close the enemy really is. Eph. 2:2. Eph. 6:11-12.

Prior to being saved we didn't see this. After salvation a LOT of chrisitans see it even less, unfortunately.

The battles with our anti-spiritual adversary is between our own two ears and in our own flesh.

And yes, it is a real battle with real adversaries, closely held.

We agree that we have a battle with evil, even messenger's of Satan, within us. Even as you wrote; "our own two ears and in our own flesh." We agree on that. Isn't that why I wrote: "Certainly I agree that evil is present in this world. I even find that there is a battle within me," You quoted it then reasserted it, seemingly as if we didn't agree.

Perhaps you missed what I am saying. Paul had that battle and still made a choice for the Lord. Paul also encouraged others to make that choice. I showed that in "Phil 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Jesus Christ." And you didn't address that issue.

If a person does not have the freedom, say because of the battle within, then they cannot press on themselves or advise others to press on. They might will to press on, but if they do not have freedom to do so, they can not propose the action!

That is not to say we don't need God's help. Isn't that the reason for press on and into the Lord Jesus Christ? We need His help so we choose by our own freewill to choose to press on toward Jesus Christ, because we need His help. And that because we have a battle within us that we should all be aware of.

So let's say a person has a battle with depression, meaning an evil spirit is trying to convince a person that they are no good and can't do anything valuable. That person can still choose to seek help from our Lord Jesus Christ, despite the battle with depression. Indeed, it might very well be that battle with evil that causes a person to seek help from the Lord!

So what about a dying person who is now face with the prospects of hell in separation from God after their physical death. Well, they to can choose to seek the Lord Jesus Christ, by the freedom to choose given them by God. God does not force them to choose the free gift of salvation that Jesus has for them, but instead God gives them the freedom to choose. Some do come to the Lord right before their death, and some don't.

There were two men hanging on a cross next to Jesus. To one the Lord said he would be with Him in heaven. There is no record of Jesus preaching to that one that was saved, but he somehow knew that Jesus was not guilty and choose to talk to Jesus Christ. That is our message. Jesus Christ died for our transgressions, and people can choose to talk to Him, and will then wind up following Him because they will come to know they are talking to God. It's that simple!

Choose the Lord Jesus Christ. And the fact that "ALL OF US HAVE A BATTLE INSIDE US DOES NOT KEEP ANY OF US FROM CHOOSING TO FOLLOW THE LORD!"

 

[K2CHRIST]

Now I tell people to make a choice for Jesus Christ. I understand that it is a mystery. People go through life and it does not occur to them to think that they might actually be able to talk to God, and hear responses in their sprit. People often need a revelation, no matter how much religious training they have. This was the case with Saul, who we now usually call Paul. He had all the best training from the Scriptures in his time, but it never occurred to Saul that he could actually hear from the Lord, until the revelation of Jesus Christ that he got on the road to Damascus.

It is pretty ridiculous when you think about it. He was one of the best trained theologians of his time and knew about their being a Christ, but he had to ask, "Who are you, Lord" when confronted from heaven. (Acts 9:5) So Saul had never actually been seeking God. And that is often the problem today. We have a choice to seek the Lord or not, but we don't seek Him. And Paul, the man who knew the Lord knew this. So Paul wrote things like "press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Jesus Christ", and " did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?"

Paul knew, because he was once the religiously zealous person we refer to as Saul, that Christ is a mystery to many. Even those that study the Scriptures intently. But He also knew that the Lord wants to talk to people and have them listen to Him. So Christ might be a mystery, but hearing from Christ is as close to you as your own heart and lips!

Eph 3:4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ

Rom 10: 8 ... what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" -- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching.

 

[childeye]

I think we might be getting a little closer. God alone is good. So trying to choose to be good is not going to get it done, however choosing to follow God by faith will get it done.

This is well said. Yes, God alone is good. And Yes, we cannot try to choose to be good and get it done. To think that we can, is the "free will" of the Old Testament.
Romans 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

So we can choose to repent of our ways and choose to listen to and follow the instructions of the Lord.

Yes we can, provided that we disavow the free will mentality of the Old Testament. Therefore, when it comes to receiving Jesus into the heart, I have a profound dislike for the use of the term "choose", and I can't help it. For "choose" is such a carnal, ungrateful, and inglorious term to describe the effect of the revelation of God to man. So much so, that when people use the phrase "choose Christ", it causes me to wonder if they have ever even heard the Gospel at all. Look at the scripture above. It says "they being ignorant of God's righteousness". Therefore, we who have been privileged to realize the immeasurable and overwhelming depth of Love that Christ displays upon the cross, are not ignorant of God's righteousness. This is the power of the cross, and the power of the blood, and the Gospel which we preach. So it is, I am confident that we did not choose to repent of our ways, even because through the Holy Spirit, we were literally forced by the power of the Gospel, to acknowledge that our righteousness is nothing but dung compared to God's.

Even then we might not be perfect, but since God knows how to instruct us even in our imperfection (because He made us and knows how we are) we can and are counted as righteous because of our faith (meaning faith in action, like James wrote about) So our moral choice is a choice of God. And we have the ability to choose God no matter what the obstacles.

Personally I believe we are counted righteous, simply for believing that God is a Person Whose Love would suffer a cross and death for us. So when you say choose God, I assume you're talking about the carnal will and the spiritual will and the transition from carnal to spiritual. This happens through the Holy Spirit. The way I see it, it is more a matter of Grace through faith than it is about choice. Moral/immoral choices can never be free will choices (voluntary choices), simply because there are two wills at play in a single person, competing over which will lives, and which will dies. I don't see a single free will that endlessly chooses between flesh and spirit. That's an equivocation, a double mindedness. As you know, we cannot serve two masters. Therefore concerning this transition, I not only completely agree with what you said, that God knows how to instruct us in our imperfection because he knows us better than we know ourselves, but also that God gives us His Spirit that we may know Him.

The verses didn't read that Jesus choose good and couldn't have chosen evil, nor was it written that Jesus could not have considered doing other than what the Father asked. They don't read like that! They clearly express Jesus with a personality that makes choices for God.

Respectfully, free will is an equivocation which applies to your interpretation of how these scriptures read. They aren't written to equivocate about how pure or impure the Light of Christ is. Christ is the True Light. Jesus couldn't have chosen evil because he is the Holy One of God. I don't equivocate on this matter. He is either Holy or he is not. Matthew 5:37.

You may wish to establish that Jesus could have chosen evil and not done God's will at Gethsemane, because he didn't want to be crucified. But that's like walking into a room where unbeknownst to you, a person is finishing his 1000th pushup, and upon seeing him struggling, you say "boy you sure are weak". That could even be said after 2,000 pushups or 3,000, but when do the accusations of weakness end? In my view, the fact that Jesus greatly desired not to suffer at the hands of beasts, is only evidence of his faithfulness. Without expressing the sincere and understandable desire to not want to be crucified, then his sacrifice is not sacrifice, and his faith is not faith.

So why is there an equivocation called free will, or rather why is there an accusation that Jesus had the disability to do evil? Because there is faith and doubt and Satan uses this circumstance to both tempt and accuse. The tempter and accuser must portray sin as a good thing, so as to tempt and a bad thing so as to accuse. And the equivocation of free will serves this purpose by portraying sin as an ability, while accusing a person of having been able to choose otherwise.

The fact is, that all things are built upon faith and not upon doubt. And when we define this doubt and this faith, it is relative to the eternal power that is Love/God. Therefore, in regards to the integrity of the substance of God as Eternal, it can never be proven that Love is eternal, nor can it be proven that it is not eternal. For if a line indeed goes on forever, one can never prove from a temporal existence, that it ends or begins, but neither can one prove that it doesn't. Therefore there is a place for accusation and doubt to occur, simply because all things are built on faith. Those choices/powers are circumstantial for the creature who is temporal, but only one is true and one is a lie. Consequently, If Love is eternal, free will in the moral/immoral purview is at odds with faith, since it exists for the creature through the option to doubt.

Therefore, I cannot prove to you that Jesus could not have chosen to go to the cross, nor can you prove to me that he could have. But this I can prove, that faith is not believing that Jesus could have chosen evil and refused good. Nor is it faith to believe that Jesus could have not submitted his will to God. Not only that, but despite the fact that I can't disprove the notion that Jesus could have chosen to be unfaithful to God's will, the scriptural evidence shows he went to the cross for our sakes, and this is now twenty-twenty hindsight. The scriptures say all the things the Messiah would do before he did them, and even Jesus said the scriptures must be fulfilled. Mark 14:49.

So perhaps a person could claim that since Jesus is fully God that He could have only made a decision for God, and that since men are men, they could only make a choice for themselves, but that can't be or else no man could ever willingly submit to God and all angels would have to have either fallen or not fallen.

I think you still don't realize that I am saying, that I believe the fall of both angels and men, is precisely because they believed they had a free will. And by free will, I mean that they presumed they were self determined. So to willingly submit to God, is to admit that we aren't self determined. We can't be good without God. Therefore I see self determinism as vanity. We become wicked through such vanity that presumes we choose what is right or wrong apart from God. One who thinks this way would quarrel with God as to what is right or wrong. Hence there was a fall. The fall was not self determined, because the vain creature doesn't freely choose to fall, even because they are competing with one another in desire for self glory. But God humbles those who exalt themselves, and that is why we fell. Isaiah 45:9.

Also Rev 3:20 where Jesus said if anyone opens the doors He will come into them. They would not be able to open the door unless the Spirit of God was already in, and the Spirit of God would not be in unless they opened the door.

But there is a spirit of God in man that opens the door to Christ, even though it has been corrupted through a false image of god via believing in self determination (free will). That is a paradox that occurs when the power that created the creation (the Word), enters the creation he created.

 

[childeye]

So what us "freewillers" don't do is to tell people that they can't come to the Lord unless God allows them!!

But then this logically means that Jesus was not a freewiller. John 6: 64-65.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

[smaller]

We agree that we have a battle with evil, even messenger's of Satan, within us. Even as you wrote; "our own two ears and in our own flesh." We agree on that. Isn't that why I wrote: "Certainly I agree that evil is present in this world. I even find that there is a battle within me," You quoted it then reasserted it, seemingly as if we didn't agree.

Perhaps you missed what I am saying. Paul had that battle and still made a choice for the Lord.

There is a decided lack of perception over this matter. Whatever choices Paul made had no effect whatsoever on the fact that evil was present with him and remained present with him. It didn't disappear and no choices made it disappear. The messenger of Satan in Paul's own flesh made contrary to the Spirit actions, always, no matter what Paul did. That is why Paul concluded this:

Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

This essentially eliminates the basis for "works" salvation and any forms of bragging or earning salvation, putting salvation squarely and securely in the hands of God in Christ, alone.

Paul also encouraged others to make that choice. I showed that in "Phil 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Jesus Christ." And you didn't address that issue.

If Paul made any choices they certainly included informing of us some unpleasant facts about our present situation. He concluded for himself for example that he was the chief of sinners, after salvation. 1 Tim. 1:15. Did Paul really choose himself into that situation? Unlikely. I think Paul was simply honest about his internal engagements with the tempter and that was the evil present with him. That's why he could make that statement of fact because he wasn't just looking at himself in the equations. He was also looking at the messenger of Satan in his own flesh. 2 Cor. 12:7. Mark 4:15.

I find believers genuinely disinterested in really hearing Paul on these subjects and preferring to gloss themselves up when Paul did the opposite.

Galatians 6:3
For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

No man's choices change that fact.

If a person does not have the freedom, say because of the battle within, then they cannot press on themselves or advise others to press on.

The battle is to be truthful. To be honest. Not pat ourselves on the back for pressing on.

They might will to press on, but if they do not have freedom to do so, they can not propose the action!

I really don't know what freedom you are even referring to. IF it's the freedom that says the issues of our salvation MUST be only in Christ and are therefore settled apart from anything we do, then I would agree that there is settlement over that issue and hence freedom. But there is certainly no freedom in lying about our current state. That seems rather ridiculous to me. I tend to like very much the frankness that scriptures present us with about this current life, showing that we are planted in weakness, corruption, dishonor in a natural body that for all intents and purposes the Spirit considers as DEAD, for example, from 1 Cor. 15:42-45 and Col. 3:3. I consider these quite fixed and immovable matters regardless of "choices" or claims of present freedom-> (which I don't believe in anyway in light of the prior facts.)

That is not to say we don't need God's help. Isn't that the reason for press on and into the Lord Jesus Christ? We need His help so we choose by our own freewill to choose to press on toward Jesus Christ, because we need His help.

I find the above circular reasoning i.e. it makes no sense to lean to Gods Help on one hand and claim we are free by our own freewill on the other. It's just banal.

There are essentially 3 will dynamics for all of us. Gods Will, our will and the will of our spiritual enemies. God does relate differently to our will and the will of our enemies. God can for example choose to engage and even raise up our enemies wills causing them to resist Him as He did with pharaoh. God can and does choose to HATE a man based on the fact that our enemies are present with us. I know this from personal experience and the scriptures show the same thing, in Romans 9:13.

This speaks entirely to Divine Sovereignty.

And that because we have a battle within us that we should all be aware of.

Think about it this way. IF God chooses to hate the enemies that are present with us, the evil present with us, which God does hate and resist, that can be a very hard thing for the flesh to handle or for the mind to comprehend. But this is exactly the basis of legitimacy for Divine chastisements and tribulations which are from God to those enemies. Do you understand this principle? No choices on our part is able to change this matter. It's fixed and set. God is not smiling fondly on our sinful thoughts, the evil present with us, the contrary state of our flesh. He only tolerates us in patience, best case.

So let's say a person has a battle with depression, meaning an evil spirit is trying to convince a person that they are no good and can't do anything valuable. That person can still choose to seek help from our Lord Jesus Christ, despite the battle with depression.

I don't disagree. I am entirely needy of Gods Mercy at all times in all ways and in all things. Life has taught me that lesson very well. That doesn't mean however that God is going to fork me over a nice bowl of cherries every time I open my yap. Some things in life are very hard.

Indeed, it might very well be that battle with evil that causes a person to seek help from the Lord!

Bingo. Pressures do tend to put us on our knees.

So what about a dying person who is now face with the prospects of hell in separation from God after their physical death.

Unbelievers are generally clueless. The only people I can see worrying about the above are freewill or works salvation adherents. I think they should go out facing their own imposed wall.

I personally don't see that particular wall of worry because I am already well aware that I am entirely powerless to bring about my own salvation anyway.