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Salvation by faith alone/only?

The texts of scripture that really seem contradictory to me are Romans 4 and James 2. James says faith without works is dead, while Paul says faith without works saves...I actually had a public debate affirming that salvation is dependant upon works (not the law, but works of obedience). Looking back, I feel that I bested my opponent, but only by being more articulate and witty. After the debate, I realized that I could honestly see why my opponent believed in salvation by faith alone, because in certain passages, that seems to be the doctrine taught.

Let me say that I generally quote from the ASV. I don't think we need to cover Romans 4 very much. It is so obvious and self evident that there are no works in salvation in this text that little comment is needed. Is that fair?
4 Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.
Faith is "reckoned for righteousness" only when there is no works.

I think the real question is James 2. A year ago, or two years ago I did a full exegesis of James 2. Probably it is gone by now. The key to James 2 is to understand the concept of "semantic range." Words do not always mean the same thing in different contexts. One of those words is "justify." Let me illustrate the sematic range.
****Two people went into a room and one was shot. When one guy came out, he claimed he was innocent of murder. He was justified in that claim when the police found the murderer still hiding in the room.
In the above use of the word, does this mean that the man who came out of the room was spiritually saved and went to heaven? Here the term is used to say that a certain claim is righteous or just.
**** Of course this is not the way Paul uses the term in Romans 4.

The first illustration is closer to the way James uses it. The question of James 2, is what is being "justified." The key verse that demonstrates the thing being justified is found in verse 18.

18 Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith.
**** Here are two men. Both claim they have faith. There is a third man in verse 18 who is an observer. The observer sees one man who "says" he has faith, but has no works. The other man does not say anything, but he has works. The question of verse 18 for the observer is how do we know which man actually has faith? Let me rephrase that question... which man is justified in claiming to have faith?
**** The end of verse 18 explains the issue. Works shows faith. Works manifest saving faith. Works justifies the claim "I have faith."

19 Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder.
**** This is the illustration to the principle found in verse 18. The illustration demonstrates that works justifies the claim to have faith.

When we get to verse 24.... 24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.
**** Because of the context, this verse must not be seen in a Pauline sense. It is not the soul of a man being justified here, but the claim "I have faith." A man is not wrong in claiming to have faith if his faith is justified by works. A man does not have true saving faith unless that faith blossoms and results in works. Some quote the thief on the cross as an example of a saved man without works. However, even that thief had a tongue and used to to ask Jesus to remember him when he comes into his kingdom. His faith could be seen right there. Yet he went on and rebuked the other thief and spoke of how they deserve death. He knew his sin. His only hope was Jesus who was dieing on the next cross. But how would this dieing Jesus receive a glorious kingdom. He was dieing. That was a justified claim to faith.

CONCLUSION
James is not saying that works contribute to salvation, neither do they assist in salvation. James is saying that works always follow salvation and works justify the claim "I have faith."

*** Frodo, I will be attempting to engage you in conversation here. Others might respond and want to challenge me, but I do not feel the need to respond to everyone that speaks up.
 
Being a former minister in the Church of Christ, I taught vehemently that salvation was dependent upon obedience just as much as faith, and faith was not enough, by itself, to bring about salvation. The bible seems to teach both views, that salvation is by faith alone and that it is not. This was one of the big factors in my deconversion, and I wonder what others have to say about the subject...

Well, in case you did not know, Faith is obedience !
 
Being a former minister in the Church of Christ, I taught vehemently that salvation was dependent upon obedience just as much as faith, and faith was not enough, by itself, to bring about salvation. The bible seems to teach both views, that salvation is by faith alone and that it is not. This was one of the big factors in my deconversion, and I wonder what others have to say about the subject...

And you come here asking that question?;) Most do not even 'believe' in de/conversion! (you know, brain dead predestination of OSAS)

But the post does sound as a ex/believer in real Truth with as least with that question!:thumbsup And WORKS? The Word of Christ is a Promise that has Faithful Loving Workings of [OBEDIENCE] from the Tree in the Garden on! 'IF YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS' What greater authority does one need, or can they require? Jehovah God???

Rev. 12:17 says..
'.. which KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, and have THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST.'

Surely you have preached about the devil's faith?? But maybe you had missed this verse of John 12??
[42] Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

[43] For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

And their faith?? It was the EXACT Working Faith as was prophesied in Isa. 5:3 of [JUDGING 'BETWIXT' ME (Christ) and MY VINEYARD'. And the 'Working' choice was a now True Virgin doctrinal vacant 'house' over Christ! And it took [both] to be (Rom. 8:1) 'IN' Christ! (ibid. 7 ='s Vinyard House)

--Elijah

PS: Is asking questions here any different than that of Jer. 17:5??
Matt. 4:4,:study 2 Tim. 3:16:study + Isa. 8:20:study:study seems to me to have one warned to watch their step!


 
If salvation is by faith and not works (Eph 2:8-9), then there indeed is a contradiction with James 2.

Focus on two words in the context.... life and death.

Eph 2 really begins in verse 1-3.
1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,
2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience;
3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:--


Unless the concept of "dead" (verse 1) is correctly understood, the passage will not be grasped. Of course this "death" goes back to the curse on Adam. God warned him that disobedience would bring about death. Paul elaborated upon that death in Romans 5. We all "die" in Adam. Adam suffered death by being separated from God. That death is further explained in the passage in verses 2-3. Because we are dead, we ....
--- Walk according to the course of this world
--- we walk according to the prince of the power of the air.
--- we live in the lust of our flesh.
--- we are by nature, children of wrath.
All this is included in the fact that we are living "death." The most interesting to me is the last. We are rebels not just by choice, but by nature. It is our nature to hate God, to disobey God. It is the nature of a bird to fly, fish to swim, and man to rebel against God. Can we make the choice of faith? Well, in one way we can make the choice of faith... but because our nature is Adamic and rebellious, we will never make that choice.

We will never make that choice unless God breaks into our death and rebellion.
5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved),
We were dead, and then the next thing that happens is Gods action. We are made alive by God. What does "made alive mean?" It is the opposite of death. So the 4 things from verse 2-3 can be reversed. When made alive, we become by nature free from our rebellion. After this, we can believe. We do believe. Faith then becomes a natural part of our thinking.

When we get to verse 8... the grace is all of the first 7 verses. Grace is God changing us from death to life so that we might believe. When looking at the context, I dont see that any sort of works has any relationship with verse 8. If we are dead rebels (verse 1) and by nature children of wrath (verse 3) what changed our nature?
(Sarcasm) We did it with a little help from the big guy upstairs... yeah right!

** This change is the work of God, and the faith that flows from it is also then the work of Gods grace.

Works contributing to salvation? Verses 1-3 make the context clear that by nature we do not do any works at all before salvation. Of course after God's work of making us "alive" and by this work of regeneration bringing us to faith, then we certainly have works... notice after verse 8 (salvation) that in verse 10 there are works that flow from salvation....
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

Why did God do it this way....
9 not of works, that no man should glory.
If God changed our nature, and all faith and works flow from Gods work in us, then what works that we do can we boast of? Then our works are the works of God in us, and no one can boast. We were once dead. Only God made us alive.
 
In addition, it is important to note that even in Romans, Paul is using "works" to mean something different than most mean it. It is not simply "doing things" that equates to "works" for Paul. The telling sign is "works of the Law" when he contrasts this to a means to salvation as opposed to faith.
I think Joe brings up a very good point here. I believe it is the same point that Paul was getting at to the Romans...that the "works of the Law" (the sacrifices, the rituals, the dietary laws, the sundry laws, etc. etc. etc.) do not have the power to save, nor did they ever.

Think of it this way, Frodo...who is Paul pointing to as an example in Romans 4? Abraham, right. OK, Abraham predates the Law. The Law was given to Moses way after Abraham returned to dust.

But, what was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness? Faith. And, how do we know that Abraham was a man of faith? What did he do to show that his faith in God was real?

I think the key is here:
Genesis 17:9-10 God said further to Abraham, “Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.

And so what did Abraham do?
Genesis 17:23 Then Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all the servants who were born in his house and all who were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham’s household, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the very same day, as God had said to him.

A question can be asked here...what if Abraham did not follow through and circumcise his household? Would Abraham still then be considered a man of faith?

This covenant with Abraham predates the Law that Paul is speaking to the Romans about. Abraham was justified by faith, outside of any works of the Law...but it cannot be said that Abraham did no "work" at all...he worked the work of obedience and circumcised his household. Had he refused to obey God in this...well, suffice it to say that kids probably wouldn't be singing "Father Abraham" in Sunday School.

This is the exact same point that James gets to when he is speaking about another of Abraham's "work" of faith...the offering up of Isaac:

James 2:18-23 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.†You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,†and he was called the friend of God.

A lot hinges on that phrase "faith working with his works"...this further defines what saving faith is all about, a faith that will lead to works as surely as standing out in the rain will get one wet.

The writer of Hebrews echos the same truth regarding Abraham...

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Again, what if...

What if, Abraham had "faith" in God, but did not go out when God called, did not circumcise his household or did not offer Isaac when God called him to?

This is what James means when James states, "Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself." Not "works of the Law" but the works that are a natural out-flowing of our obedience to the God we have faith in.

Romans 4 and James 2 really are not contradictory...Paul and James are each showing a different facet of the kind of faith that saves.
 
Being a former minister in the Church of Christ, I taught vehemently that salvation was dependent upon obedience just as much as faith, and faith was not enough, by itself, to bring about salvation. The bible seems to teach both views, that salvation is by faith alone and that it is not. This was one of the big factors in my deconversion, and I wonder what others have to say about the subject...

Do you see what God meant in Jer.17:5 Fro?? Two so far on here 'teach' that Abe pre/dated the Law of God! (most ignorantly do!:screwloose)

But Gen. 12:1-5 has the Gentile Abe a Gentile soul winner in verse 5. And what ETERNAL Gospel of Rev. 14:6 was it that God TAUGHT HIM [VERBALLY] (by His Voice) to have Soul's won to Christ??

The WORD of Christ/God does not leave one in ignorance, [[IF]] one :study & Believes His Word.
It never ceases to amaze me with the ream & reams of paper put forth into trying to complicate who Melchisedec [King of Salem was suppose to be other than that of 'A Priest of God's appointment!?

It just seems that the whole Eternal Gospel point of Rev. 14:6 has been missed from Adam on up to the call of the Jews! God spoke to His own (even Cain in Gen. 4:7, person to person!) person up until the Mount Sinai request for Him not to do so. And in between Adam & the forming of Israel's priesthood God still had [[everything else]] that was REQUIRED & Conditionally structured!

Even the pre/flood ones ALL had Noah's Eternal Gospel 'Message' of Christ's Righteousness being preached for 120 years with the Striving of the Holy Spirit! Abe had SOULS won to Christ in Gen. 12:1-5, and have you ever not wondered how long it took to win over even one soul to Christ?? And these were ALL Gentiles as was Noah, Adam,+ Abe!

And what did God have in place from the 'required' Lamb offering on?? He leaves NO ONE IGNORANT on that! In Gen 26:1-5 we see God appearing to Isaac & in verse 5, and we see DOCUMENTATION of God for why He called Abe in the First Place.... + there was also a 'priest of the most high God' even then! But here is the point that is passed over by this constant satan's side/track!

Gen. 26:5
[5] Because that Abraham [obeyed my voice,] and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
(and that was long before any pedigree Jew came on the scene!
And NO, Christ was not the King per/say of Salem!)

Eccl. 1
[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
[10] Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
+

Eccl. 3
[14] I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
[15] That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.


In other words, people search & search peoples post & the many commentaries for what God has not 'openly' revealed, they spend hours & hours of valuable time while missing out on the Vitals of what God has required from day one on, to the giving of His Eternal Heb. 13:20 Covenant on Mount Sinai. And the forth Commandment even started with REMEMBER! Remember from where? Most still do not get it, huh? Yet, this is who we go to, for our information??

--Elijah
 
I have not found in scripture that man is a "rebel" by nature. He has an instinct to worship something or someone as well. He makes the choice as to whom or what, or none at all.
 
Focus on two words in the context.... life and death.

Eph 2 really begins in verse 1-3.
1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,
2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience;
3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:--

Unless the concept of "dead" (verse 1) is correctly understood, the passage will not be grasped. Of course this "death" goes back to the curse on Adam. God warned him that disobedience would bring about death. Paul elaborated upon that death in Romans 5. We all "die" in Adam. Adam suffered death by being separated from God. That death is further explained in the passage in verses 2-3. Because we are dead, we ....
--- Walk according to the course of this world
--- we walk according to the prince of the power of the air.
--- we live in the lust of our flesh.
--- we are by nature, children of wrath.
All this is included in the fact that we are living "death." The most interesting to me is the last. We are rebels not just by choice, but by nature.

A key mistake in classic Protestantims is to claim that man "by nature" is dead, rebels, or a pile of manure... This understanding leads to so many sad errors.

What happens from this paradigm is that verses like Eph 2:1 "dead" is to compare it to physical death. Naturally, when compared that way (incorrectly), one gets the idea that man can do absolutely nothing, must be covered with Christ, is imputed righteousness (without ANY inner transformation), and remains a sinner even after the Spirit comes to dwell within, despite what Romans 8 says. The problem is the false understanding of "dead".

It should be crystal clear that the comparison with Adam should ring bells - Adam wasn't physically dead after his sin! He died spiritually - lost a relationship with God. That is the metaphor invoked in being tossed out of the Garden, where God "freely walked among them". THIS is what 'dead' means here. Not that man has no ability whatsoever, even when guided by God working within us - but that a relationship has died because of OUR actions (not God's).

Even Jesus HIMSELF states this in his parable of the prodigal son. TWICE, he calls the son DEAD. But isn't it the SON who returns home? Is the son REALLY unable to do anything because of this "death"? NO!!! "Dead" refers to a severed relationship, the fault of the "son", not the "father". Thus, "dead", in the spiritual realm, does not imply an absolute inability to "come home" to God! It means that we are spiritually removed from LIFE - Jesus Christ and God HImself. Being separated from God IS death. Thus, those without Christ are dead, those with Christ are alive (1 John 5:12). It certainly does NOT imply that we cannot turn back to the Lord. I would be citing hundreds of verses to prove that man is EXPECTED to turn back to God (with His help, but nevertheless, man must act here, and thus cannot be "dead" in that sense of no response).

Because "death" is misunderstood in Eph 2 by classic Protestantism, the entire premise collapses - that it is our NATURE to hate God. Common experience of our world would seem to indicate that man, generally, does hate God, but that does not define the "nature" of man, since individually, we know SOME men DO convert and turn to God. Observing the general malaise of our state does not necessarily lead one to think that universally, man CANNOT turn to God, because his nature won't ALLOW it.

Another obvious proof of this inexplicable error is that THE WORD BECAME MAN. HE TOOK ON HUMAN NATURE. Who would suggest that in Christ's nature, man, we the nature to hate God??? Christ shows us what TRUE human nature can become, when it turns to God. The problem is that man is badly wounded. Christ represents TRUE human nature. Our fallen selves are wounded. IF our nature was and is indeed ontologically evil, Christ did not become man and we remain unsaved, since Christ cannot be our mediator if he didn't become like us.

Regards
 
Focus on two words in the context.... life and death.

Eph 2 really begins in verse 1-3.
1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,
2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience;
3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:--

Unless the concept of "dead" (verse 1) is correctly understood, the passage will not be grasped. Of course this "death" goes back to the curse on Adam. God warned him that disobedience would bring about death. Paul elaborated upon that death in Romans 5. We all "die" in Adam. Adam suffered death by being separated from God. That death is further explained in the passage in verses 2-3. Because we are dead, we ....
--- Walk according to the course of this world
--- we walk according to the prince of the power of the air.
--- we live in the lust of our flesh.
--- we are by nature, children of wrath.
All this is included in the fact that we are living "death." The most interesting to me is the last. We are rebels not just by choice, but by nature. It is our nature to hate God, to disobey God. It is the nature of a bird to fly, fish to swim, and man to rebel against God. Can we make the choice of faith? Well, in one way we can make the choice of faith... but because our nature is Adamic and rebellious, we will never make that choice.

We will never make that choice unless God breaks into our death and rebellion.
5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved),
We were dead, and then the next thing that happens is Gods action. We are made alive by God. What does "made alive mean?" It is the opposite of death. So the 4 things from verse 2-3 can be reversed. When made alive, we become by nature free from our rebellion. After this, we can believe. We do believe. Faith then becomes a natural part of our thinking.

When we get to verse 8... the grace is all of the first 7 verses. Grace is God changing us from death to life so that we might believe. When looking at the context, I dont see that any sort of works has any relationship with verse 8. If we are dead rebels (verse 1) and by nature children of wrath (verse 3) what changed our nature?
(Sarcasm) We did it with a little help from the big guy upstairs... yeah right!

** This change is the work of God, and the faith that flows from it is also then the work of Gods grace.

Works contributing to salvation? Verses 1-3 make the context clear that by nature we do not do any works at all before salvation. Of course after God's work of making us "alive" and by this work of regeneration bringing us to faith, then we certainly have works... notice after verse 8 (salvation) that in verse 10 there are works that flow from salvation....
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

Why did God do it this way....
9 not of works, that no man should glory.
If God changed our nature, and all faith and works flow from Gods work in us, then what works that we do can we boast of? Then our works are the works of God in us, and no one can boast. We were once dead. Only God made us alive.
A well said post and concise use of scripture.
 
From Genesis to Revelation it's totally clear that Salvation is by Faith, always was from the beginning, and still is.

The CofC (particularly the "Hard Line Non Instrumental Church of Christ") doesn't appear to have any concept whatsoever about the work of the Holy Spirit in the Church TODAY, and is a "religious system" based on "Mental ascent" (instead of FAITH), Baptismal regeneration, and "Performance based" Christian practice.

But -

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

There are many REAL Christians in the Churches of Christ, and there are folks that are nothing more than "members of the Church of Christ". The percentage by volume of REAL Christianity appears to rise in the more liberal CofC groups that don't practice the fundamentalistic hyper-legalism of the Hard-liners.
 
You say: From Genesis to Revelation it's totally clear that Salvation is by Faith, always was from the beginning, and still is.'

I can't buy that. Perfect Lucifer + Adam & Eve fell because of 'working' dis/obedience' alone'! And to be reclaimed?? Acts 5:32 has OBEDIENT FAITH required from day one on for even being [[BORN AGAIN]]!! John 3:3-8 Unless you can document any other way?? DEAD faith will not do it!:screwloose

--Elijah

PS: Add in Eccl. 12:13-14 which the Conclusion of the [Whole Matter] & that is not the [dead faith] alone.
 
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WHAT must "obedient faith" do to be saved today?

Christ made it simple. He came to do His Fathers will. Isa. 42:21 (Second Adam) Then Christ said: [[[[IF]]]] ye Love ME, Keep My Commandments. So who Loves Christ?

And the one time 'son of Thunder' penned it this way of 1 John 2:4 'He that sayeth, I know Him, and keepeth not His Commandments, is a liar, and [THERE IS NO TRUTH IN HIM].' (or her)

So who even KNOWS Christ??
Yet, surely there are a hudge bunch who are in ignorance? As there were when Christ was here on earth. John 10:16 + Rev. 18:4

What is amazing though, is that seeing that Christ was not [IN] those folds, who was?? Well, if He was & is IN these church's of Rev. 17:1-5 & others back then, why would He have needed to CALL THEM OUT?? See Rev. 3:9 Truth.

--Elijah

 
You didn't answer my question

I thought that 'i' did? Matt. 4:4! 2 Tim. 3:16! FOLLOW CHRIST IN TOTAL SURRENDER!

More?? See Acts 9 for a real killer & his question to Christ in verses 4-6 of what he [MUST DO?] And then the [[[REQUIREMENT]]] in verse 6! If you miss this point?? Saul was to 'give up his 'will totally' to Christ in Obedience'! What will YOU HAVE ME TO DO!

--Elijah
 
What you have submitted is general and agreed to. However, (for example) you cited Acts 9:4-6 as a "killer" and especially cited vs. 6. Well, what after verse 6?
 
What you have submitted is general and agreed to. However, (for example) you cited Acts 9:4-6 as a "killer" and especially cited vs. 6. Well, what after verse 6?

OK: Good, now we are understanding one another! Some huh? Maybe?;)

OK: In the OT Sanctuary teaching (Psalms 77:13) if you are familiar with that, we see the lamb offering offered by the one that was a believer by faith in Christ's future sacrifice. Heb. 11:13 has these o.t. ones all dieing in the faith. But was the offering the end of their work. Not hardly! Was that the FINISHED work of Christ? Absolutely not, NO WAY! They had to go on further! (again Matt. 4:4!) The ones of today even have the false teaching that they are saved by faith alone, without Born Again Loving Obedience.

NOW: Here we come in Rom. 8:1 accepting 'completely' lets say, the Lamb Offering (Christ) after the fact of His actual Death. (the plan being consumated)

OK, the Rom. 8:1 verse has the person 'IN CHRIST' with NO CONDEMNATION. (PERFECT!) at that point. As was Adam at his start! And you ask, now what?? Surely we cannot be saved for long if we just did go back home Justified as inmature babies as is seen in Heb. 5. We are required to MATURE! (check out Nah. 1:9)

Adam was perfect, as are the ones of Rom. 8:1. Yet, none of these were PERFECTLY MATURE in OBEDIENCE! That is what the TREE OF TESTING right in the 'midst of the Garden' was for! (got that??) We find on after Rom. 8:1's NO Condemnation the verse 14 of being LED OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Go read Heb. 12:4-8 prayerfully & you will find that these PARTAKERS are to be SORELY TESTED by God! ibid. 6 + verse 8.

We have passed up much required Truth to get this far. Before this Born Again point came Matt. 28:20 teaching OBEDIENCE To Christ Commandments, and surely all MUST be Born Again for this required starting point that you ask about FIRST. Again Acts 5:32 is the ETERNAL TRUTH of Required Surrender!

OK: Who can be obedient without the Provisions given the Born Again one? NO ONE! So, it is at this 'total surrender of sinful mans will' that they will be given the Eternal Grace to live as Christ REQUIRES, and this is only claimed by faith! Only then comes Phil. 4:13 + 2 Cor. 12:9 supplied Grace! again, READ THIS!:study

--Elijah
 
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If salvation is by faith and not works (Eph 2:8-9), then there indeed is a contradiction with James 2.

Which is it: Faith with works, or faith whithout works? It can't be both...
Why did you stop at verse 9? Verse 10 is very important: (ESV)


8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
We are created for god works, which a faith in Christ produces, as our natural response of repentance.
 
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