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https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Way to cut through the semantics of this conversation. Either a person trusts God or they don't, and if He says all men are liars and fools we best consider it and humble ourselves."Obedient faith" is a redundant statement. There's no such thing as "Disobedient Faith". As a matter of fact IF one DOES NOT move according to, and as a result of the FAITH that he has, then it's simply a conclusive demonstration that there really WAS NO "Faith" at all - which is what James is all about.
It's totally clear that James is saying that if WHAT YOU CALL "Faith" produces NOTHING in terms of resultant action, then it's not faith at all - just "hot air".
Some CofC hardliners have invented something they call "Dead Faith" which is nothing but a contradiction of terms, and non-existent.
Biblical FAITH according to Heb 11:1 is defined as being a SUBSTANCE - a unquestionable REALITY of the thing that you're HOPING for (i.e. it isn't there yet, but you KNOW that you already have it), and Faith is an EVIDENCE of what you can't see - it ESTABLISHES the REALITY of the thing - even though it's not there - yet.
98% of what the church CALLS "Faith" - really isn't "Faith at all" - since there's no REALITY/SUBSTANCE to it.
Abraham is presented early on as an EXAMPLE of faith. God says "kill your son" - and Abe set out to do just that - but tells the folks with him that "WE WILL return to you".
Abe's "Righteousness" is the direct result of his FAITH in God. Same as ours. Abe's faith CAUSED HIM to do certain things as a result. But the THINGS he did didn't "Save" him - his FAITH did.
Simple as that.
TRUE!! dead faith isn't "Faith at all", of course. and since it's FAITH that saves, - obviously "No faith" doesn't.
Simple as that.
Respectfully, you've equated trust with believing in the existence of God. Satan does not trust God nor does he regard any high power as scripture says.Not according to James 2. Even the devil believes that God exists. That is faith, according to James. And that faith doesn't save. Obviously, faith without something does not save, that is very clear in James
Regards
Respectfully, you've equated trust with believing in the existence of God. Satan does not trust God nor does he regard any high power as scripture says.
If Satan trusts God, why did he bet against Gods' evaluation of Job? Why does he rebel against that which he trusts? You speak of works as does James and this in the context that we must be doing Godly acts if indeed God is in us. Given that this is his point, it is understandable that he would say believing in God is not enough although he is intentionally downplaying the statement "I believe" as insincere if one has no good works. This is arguing semantics therefore, for who sincerely trusts Love but does not act out of it?Larry, just read James, he does, as well.
He says the devil believes - and Christians do well to do the same. As if such faith is not enough. Belief is another way of saying "faith", according to the writer of Hebrews.
Now, granted, one COULD protract the definition of "faith" to include MANY things - even our entire walk. The Bible does this sometimes, probably confusing some people. However, the context of James doesn't allow it, because the concept of "works" is something independent from "faith", and by works, we are made just - according to James. Of course, this means that we are not justified by faith (belief in God) alone OR works alone...
"Obedience" and "faith" do NOT necessarily follow. The REASON for writing James 2 was to DENY that concept! Christians were not obeying the royal law, even though they had faith!!! Their faith was dead - good in that it believed in God, but not good enough to save by itself.
Regards
Nice."Obedient faith" is a redundant statement. There's no such thing as "Disobedient Faith". As a matter of fact IF one DOES NOT move according to, and as a result of the FAITH that he has, then it's simply a conclusive demonstration that there really WAS NO "Faith" at all - which is what James is all about.
It's totally clear that James is saying that if WHAT YOU CALL "Faith" produces NOTHING in terms of resultant action, then it's not faith at all - just "hot air".
Some CofC hardliners have invented something they call "Dead Faith" which is nothing but a contradiction of terms, and non-existent.
Biblical FAITH according to Heb 11:1 is defined as being a SUBSTANCE - a unquestionable REALITY of the thing that you're HOPING for (i.e. it isn't there yet, but you KNOW that you already have it), and Faith is an EVIDENCE of what you can't see - it ESTABLISHES the REALITY of the thing - even though it's not there - yet.
98% of what the church CALLS "Faith" - really isn't "Faith at all" - since there's no REALITY/SUBSTANCE to it.
Abraham is presented early on as an EXAMPLE of faith. God says "kill your son" - and Abe set out to do just that - but tells the folks with him that "WE WILL return to you".
Abe's "Righteousness" is the direct result of his FAITH in God. Same as ours. Abe's faith CAUSED HIM to do certain things as a result. But the THINGS he did didn't "Save" him - his FAITH did.
Simple as that.
If Satan trusts God, why did he bet against Gods' evaluation of Job?
Your statement that James is saying faith and obedience do not necessarily follow is the exact opposite of what I get when I read it.
Moreover he says that a man must ask in faith without wavering to receive anything from God.
Yes I know you are not saying James is applying trust as a definition of Satan's faith in God. I really see no point in debating semantics. I am not advocating disobedience nor unbelief. I am not disagreeing with your intention to point out faith is dead without works nor is anyone else here as far as I am able to discern. We're all saying the same thing just in different ways.Larry, I didn't say anything about "trust" and Satan... Please read what I wrote. I said that James defines faith differently than you do. He notes that satan has faith that God exists. Just as Christians do. James points out that this sort of faith does not save.
That's because you are reading your own ideas INTO the actual Scriptures. I fail to see how anyone could get that "faith" in James 2 INCLUDED faithful obedience to the Royal Law, for that is the entire reason for James writing his second chapter, to call OUT FROM CHRISTIANS obedience - works that show our faith.
My point about faith applied to trusting as in asking for wisdom and trusting He will give it to you is in James 1.That definition is not used in James 2. James is not speaking about trusting in God in James 2.
Yes I know you are not saying James is applying trust as a definition of Satan's faith in God. I really see no point in debating semantics. I am not advocating disobedience nor unbelief. I am not disagreeing with your intention to point out faith is dead without works nor is anyone else here as far as I am able to discern. We're all saying the same thing just in different ways.
My point about faith applied to trusting as in asking for wisdom and trusting He will give it to you is in James 1.
So you agree that faith in God without obedience to Him is dead?
Regards
Acts 24:24-25 And after some days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish, he sent for Paul and heard him concerning the faith in Christ. Now as he reasoned about righteousness, self-control, and the judgment to come, Felix was afraid and answered, "Go away for now; when I have a convenient time I will call for you." (NKJV)
I do not disagree with you. I do not however share your use of the phrase faith in Christ equated with righteousness, self control, and judgment. Do you believe Jesus is the true Image of God? For if you come to know Jesus you then know the Character of God. Since man was made in God's image we become whatever image of God we believe in. If you believe God is strict and authoritative you also become as such. Look at the Muslims. If you believe He is so kind and merciful that He forgives those who crucify him you become like Him. Having faith in Christ is knowing God in the person of Jesus.Jas 2:19-20 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe (G4100 πιστεύω pisteuo) -- and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith (G4102 πίστις pistis) without works is dead?
Well, the issue really is something to do with a man's inner self that cannot be put in words or debated. When a man say he believes in God, only he and God knows how truly he believes.
Simply believing in Jesus Christ like the devil and many Hindus is not going to save anyone. I have many Hindu friends who believe that Jesus Christ is Son of God along with their other 1000 gods.
In the book James, it was clearly pointed out the fact that you cannot have a dead faith if you truly believe in Christ because the person will start showing the works and fruits of Holy Spirit.
We are justified by 'Faith in Jesus Christ'. But what is this? Does Scripture has a definition?
Faith in Jesus Christ = Righteousness + Self Control + Judgment
Scripture says, righteousness, self-control and guarding ourselves from the coming judgment is Faith in Jesus Christ. So, if anyone believes in Christ and yet no fruits are produced, he is like a chaff which goes to unquenchable fire (Luk 3:17) and the tree which is cut and thrown into fire (Luk 3:9).
I do not disagree with you. I do not however share your use of the phrase faith in Christ equated with righteousness, self control, and judgment. Do you believe Jesus is the true Image of God? For if you come to know Jesus you then know the Character of God. Since man was made in God's image we become whatever image of God we believe in. If you believe God is strict and authoritative you also become as such. Look at the Muslims. If you believe He is so kind and merciful that He forgives those who crucify him you become like Him. Having faith in Christ is knowing God in the person of Jesus.
Yes I agree. Yet I would go further and say it was never faith at all if there were never obedience through such so called faith.
The point being that true faith accomplishes all things.
Either we believe in Holiness or we are in fact trusting in corruption. I am using a subjective view in that statement so I do not mean to imply trusting in corruption is faith. All terms are relative to an absolute in my view. Only faith pointed at God is therefore true faith.
Forgive me, but I fail l to understand if you are agreeing or disagreeing with what I said. Certainly, your analogy is accurate, but I sense some disconnect since I cannot comprehend why you would tell me this. I have not advocated for disobeying Jesus or God. I am saying faith precedes obedience. Moreover I am defining the term and reason for Christ so as to make effective the cause of his being sent. Was he sent to tell us the world is on fire and head for the exit or is he Himself the exit?The fireman is asking you to run to the exit giving you directions inside a burning house but you don't see the exit.
- Running towards the exit is faith in Jesus Christ.
- Walking slowly towards the exit is weak in faith.
- Standing at the same place yet believing in what the fireman said is dead faith
- Not believing the fireman is not faith at all.