Salvation for the ignorant. Duration of Hell. Other questions.

[Kmaxb]

Hello everyone newbie here.

Couple of questions. Curious about Christian theology.

1. A person who lives a good honest life but dies without ever learning about Jesus Christ. Do they go to Hell? And is their experience in Hell the same as a person who lives a life of sin and open rebellion to God?

2. If Gods omniscience’s allows him to know who will end up in Hell, why allow them to be born in the first place?

3. If a persons life of sin is finite, how is it fair for hell to be infinite? At some point have they not paid for their own sins and deserve at least something similar to the catholic view of limbo?

Appreciate your thoughts! And happy Father’s Day

 

[Free]

Hello everyone newbie here.

Welcome to the forums!

Couple of questions. Curious about Christian theology.

1. A person who lives a good honest life but dies without ever learning about Jesus Christ. Do they go to Hell? And is their experience in Hell the same as a person who lives a life of sin and open rebellion to God?

Yes, they likely go to hell:

Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (ESV)

I am of the opinion that everyone’s experience will be different:

Luk 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (ESV)
Notice that there are levels of punishment depending on what one knew and did. Hell is eternal and people will be there for eternity, but it seems as though the punishment for each is of varying duration.

2. If Gods omniscience’s allows him to know who will end up in Hell, why allow them to be born in the first place?

Should God not give people the opportunity to choose to believe in him? Is it morally right for God to limit who gets born?

3. If a persons life of sin is finite, how is it fair for hell to be infinite? At some point have they not paid for their own sins and deserve at least something similar to the catholic view of limbo?

Hell is infinite in part because they have rejected God and the sacrifice of his Son, essentially an infinitely costly sacrifice. Humans also are made in the image of God and so have infinite worth. The more morally superior option is for God to keep them separated from himself for eternity rather than destroy them.

Going to hell has nothing to with paying for one’s own sins. Jesus is the only one who paid for sins, for everyone’s sins, but it is only applied if they believe. He died to make salvation possible and avert the wrath of God.

Going to hell is based on whether or not one accepts Jesus and his sacrifice:

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ESV)

Notice that the default is to be condemned to hell.

Appreciate your thoughts! And happy Father’s Day

Happy Father’s Day to you too, if it applies.

 

[Kmaxb]

Thank you for your response I appreciate it.
So in regards to the first question, your interpretation of those versus in Romans means that people who’ve never heard of Jesus are still responsible for not accepting him?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hello everyone newbie here.

Couple of questions. Curious about Christian theology.

1. A person who lives a good honest life but dies without ever learning about Jesus Christ. Do they go to Hell? And is their experience in Hell the same as a person who lives a life of sin and open rebellion to God?

When I was young I thought this was possible. Now that I’ve lived 50+ years, I seriously doubt anyone can live a good honest life apart from God actively helping. And if God is helping, there is relationship. What atheists usually meant by “good” is a pretty low standard like “never committing murder.”

Hell has different levels and degrees of suffering.

2. If Gods omniscience’s allows him to know who will end up in Hell, why allow them to be born in the first place?

Is it just to deprive them of any life at all? What of their children? Shall they too be deprived of any life at all because of an ancestor’s choice?

3. If a persons life of sin is finite, how is it fair for hell to be infinite?

A person’s life is eternal ….Heaven or hell. There’s simply only two options.

At some point have they not paid for their own sins and deserve at least something similar to the catholic view of limbo?

They haven’t changed. I’m sure every prison inmate regrets what led them there…mostly getting caught. Yet when they leave, they do the same crime, Why? Punishment didn’t change who they made themselves into. Should criminals be let into Heaven where there are no locks?

Appreciate your thoughts! And happy Father’s Day

Any time!

 

[popsthebuilder]

Hello everyone newbie here.

Couple of questions. Curious about Christian theology.

1. A person who lives a good honest life but dies without ever learning about Jesus Christ. Do they go to Hell? And is their experience in Hell the same as a person who lives a life of sin and open rebellion to God?

2. If Gods omniscience’s allows him to know who will end up in Hell, why allow them to be born in the first place?

3. If a persons life of sin is finite, how is it fair for hell to be infinite? At some point have they not paid for their own sins and deserve at least something similar to the catholic view of limbo?

Appreciate your thoughts! And happy Father’s Day

1.) Ignorance will not be punished or recompensed as if knowing sin. The one who is damned is the one who knowingly and willingly and repeatedly goes against the truth and teaches others to do the same knowingly.

2., 3) Some may understand hell to mean separation from GOD which is alone life, ultimately. The punishment is eternal though. It is known as annihilationism I think, or a particular belief regarding eternal destruction/ being utterly destroyed, forever.

Happy father's day to you as well....though it's just made Monday by this point technically.

 

[st_worm2]

Hello everyone newbie here.

Hello Kmaxb, and WELCOME TO CF

Couple of questions. Curious about Christian theology.

1. A person who lives a good honest life but dies without ever learning about Jesus Christ. Do they go to Hell?

Unless they are as perfect in holiness and righteousness as He is, then yes (of course, God judges and condemns the unsaved on the basis of what they know and understand of right and wrong, even if that amounts to nothing more than the law that was written on their hearts by God from birth (and what they did with it in regard to their consciences).

Click here: Romans 2:12-16, 3:9-12, 23 for more about this.

And is their experience in Hell the same as a person who lives a life of sin and open rebellion to God?

No, I don't believe so. God is just, and each man/woman (who is reprobate) will be judged and condemned by Him according to what they have done in this life. For instance, an otherwise moral, law-abiding atheist is not going to suffer the same fate/punishment that Hitler will in the age to come (as that would not be just).

2. If Gods omniscience’s allows him to know who will end up in Hell, why allow them to be born in the first place?

That is tough to answer. That's what most of us would do, of course, but we aren't God and He isn't us (THANKFULLY)!! Romans 9 may have a clue or two for you about this.

3. If a persons life of sin is finite, how is it fair for hell to be infinite? At some point have they not paid for their own sins and deserve at least something similar to the catholic view of limbo?

Limbo? That's the place that unbaptized infants/unborn children who die are sent (according to Catholic doctrine), yes, not because they've committed any sins personally, but because of their fallen/inherited nature that they are born with. Is "Limbo" still taught by them (I haven't heard it mentioned by anyone for years)?

That said, the shed blood of the perfect/spotless Lamb of God is what is needed to pay the price that God requires (to atone for and forgive our sins, and to redeem us). This is why the reprobate spends eternity in Hell (because the needed payment to atone for their sins has not been made).

I hope you had a happy Father's Day too

God bless you!!

--David

Romans 5
8 God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
.

 

[lastofall]

Hello everyone newbie here.

Couple of questions. Curious about Christian theology.

1. A person who lives a good honest life but dies without ever learning about Jesus Christ. Do they go to Hell? And is their experience in Hell the same as a person who lives a life of sin and open rebellion to God?

2. If Gods omniscience’s allows him to know who will end up in Hell, why allow them to be born in the first place?

3. If a persons life of sin is finite, how is it fair for hell to be infinite? At some point have they not paid for their own sins and deserve at least something similar to the catholic view of limbo?

Appreciate your thoughts! And happy Father’s Day

1. A "good and honest life" without repentance is of none effect with God; for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; and again, there is none righteous, no not one. As for "lives a life of sin", that applies to us all; and as for our righteousness: our righteousness is as filthy rages. To think that we are good enough is of itself sin; we must needs own our sins and repent.
2. For the purpose of giving his chance to amend his ways and doings: repentance is voluntary; just as continuing in willful sin is voluntary; for sin does not have dominion over us; we of our own selves can repent of putting our trust into the hands and power of sin, and turn to putting our trust into the hands and power of God instead.
3. Our life is a trial: we are not God: He makes His own rules! perhaps when you were God, then you can then make your own rules; but now it is not so.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hello everyone newbie here.

Couple of questions. Curious about Christian theology.

1. A person who lives a good honest life but dies without ever learning about Jesus Christ. Do they go to Hell? And is their experience in Hell the same as a person who lives a life of sin and open rebellion to God?

2. If Gods omniscience’s allows him to know who will end up in Hell, why allow them to be born in the first place?

3. If a persons life of sin is finite, how is it fair for hell to be infinite? At some point have they not paid for their own sins and deserve at least something similar to the catholic view of limbo?

Appreciate your thoughts! And happy Father’s Day

1. Hosea 4:6-7; Romans 1:16-25

2. Genesis 1:27; Ephesians 1:3-14

3. Limbo/purgatory is a false teaching read John 3:16-21; 5:28-29 as it is not God that condemns anyone to hell, but those who reject God and His Son Christ Jesus have already condemned themselves in God's judgement.

 

[Riven]

1. A person who lives a good honest life but dies without ever learning about Jesus Christ. Do they go to Hell? And is their experience in Hell the same as a person who lives a life of sin and open rebellion to God?

Yes, that seems to be the case. Although we obviously can't say for sure because we've never been there. That being said, Jesus did say that the only way to the father was through him.

2. If Gods omniscience’s allows him to know who will end up in Hell, why allow them to be born in the first place?

Ah, yes. Thats a good question and it's one I've asked before. How do we have free will if God already knows every decision we will make in advance? Is it moral for a just God to condemn people to hell for eternity in advance, for actions they themselves have not even committed yet?

Does God himself have free will? If he knows what actions he will take in the future, can he contradict his own knowledge of the future by making a choice that he himself did not forsee? The easy out here is that God exists outside of time, so it doesn't apply to him. Thats fair, I suppose. Something to think about though.

I apologize for not being able to answer this question. I'm still working on it myself.

3. If a persons life of sin is finite, how is it fair for hell to be infinite? At some point have they not paid for their own sins and deserve at least something similar to the catholic view of limbo?

Well, it's obviously not fair from thee human perspective. But God runs the bingo and it's house rules. He's the only game in town, so we don't have much choice in the matter. It is disturbing to think that billions, most of humanity in fact, will end up in hell. I dont even want to believe it myself.

 

[Tenchi]

Hello everyone newbie here.

Couple of questions. Curious about Christian theology.

1. A person who lives a good honest life but dies without ever learning about Jesus Christ. Do they go to Hell? And is their experience in Hell the same as a person who lives a life of sin and open rebellion to God?

Welcome to CF!

People go to hell because they sin. That is, they disobey the "law of God written on their heart," their God-given conscience, and actively suppress their knowledge of the truth of His existence, witnessed to by Creation. See Romans 1:18-32.

Our sin disqualifies us from God's acceptance, whose standard for entrance into His family and kingdom is His own perfect righteousness. Under this standard, no one measures up - not even the very nicest person you can think of. God says this, actually, in His word:

Romans 3:10-12
10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

Romans 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

We like to measure ourselves by those around us, often using the very worst examples of human conduct to make ourselves seem "shiny." But next to God, in whom is no darkness at all, we are desperately wicked people deserving of eternal punishment in hell. Thankfully, God has not left us in this awful circumstance but has made a way through Jesus Christ for all who would be saved to be so.

Any person, no matter where they are, who wishes to know God, to truly know Him, and seeks as best they can to draw near to Him, God has promised will find Him.

James 4:8
8 Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you...

God does not judge us all equally. To whom much is given, much is required. The servant who knows little of his Master's will but who did things worthy of punishment will receive "fewer lashes." (Luke 12:48)

2. If Gods omniscience’s allows him to know who will end up in Hell, why allow them to be born in the first place?

It is stands to reason that, of all the worlds God could have made in which people freely choose to love and serve Him, our world is the one world in which the maximum number of such people do so. Being loving, gracious, merciful and just, if God could have made a world in which everybody freely chose to know and love Him, He would have done so. That we don't occupy such a world indicates that it isn't possible. In light of God's good nature, however, we can deduce further that we live in the one world out of all possible ones in which the maximum number of people who would freely come to a saving faith in Christ do so. Rather than our world being a testament to God's arbitrary cruelty, then, it is a testament to His goodness.

3. If a persons life of sin is finite, how is it fair for hell to be infinite? At some point have they not paid for their own sins and deserve at least something similar to the catholic view of limbo?

A person's sin is never finite in its scope since it is always ultimately committed against God, who is infinite.

One cannot earn one's way into God's good graces and kingdom. If such a thing were possible, Jesus did not have to die in atonement for our sin. God could simply run us all through a purgatorial process instead. But He didn't do that. His standard for entrance into His family and kingdom is His own perfection, remember. A standard that no imperfect being can attain to, no matter how long the purifying process. Among other things, being imperfect, they inevitably produce new products of their imperfectness (sin) for which they must atone in an endless cycle of sin>payment>sin>payment.

 

[Kmaxb]

Yes, that seems to be the case. Although we obviously can't say for sure because we've never been there. That being said, Jesus did say that the only way to the father was through him.


Ah, yes. Thats a good question and it's one I've asked before. How do we have free will if God already knows every decision we will make in advance? Is it moral for a just God to condemn people to hell for eternity in advance, for actions they themselves have not even committed yet?

Does God himself have free will? If he knows what actions he will take in the future, can he contradict his own knowledge of the future by making a choice that he himself did not forsee? The easy out here is that God exists outside of time, so it doesn't apply to him. Thats fair, I suppose. Something to think about though.

I apologize for not being able to answer this question. I'm still working on it myself.


Well, it's obviously not fair from thee human perspective. But God runs the bingo and it's house rules. He's the only game in town, so we don't have much choice in the matter. It is disturbing to think that billions, most of humanity in fact, will end up in hell. I dont even want to believe it myself.

I agree, it’s very disturbing. My main question then is what’s the purpose of it all? I mean for the billions of souls who will suffer for eternity won’t they be asking every day “what the hell is the point of this?” (Pun intended).

 

[Highway54]

Hello everyone newbie here.

Couple of questions. Curious about Christian theology.

1. A person who lives a good honest life but dies without ever learning about Jesus Christ. Do they go to Hell? And is their experience in Hell the same as a person who lives a life of sin and open rebellion to God?

2. If Gods omniscience’s allows him to know who will end up in Hell, why allow them to be born in the first place?

3. If a persons life of sin is finite, how is it fair for hell to be infinite? At some point have they not paid for their own sins and deserve at least something similar to the catholic view of limbo?

Appreciate your thoughts! And happy Father’s Day

Hi Kmax! Welcome to the forum sir. Hell is the abode of the dead, so all who die go there to await their resurrection, like Jesus did. On a positive note, hells time is limited, after Jesus returns, all will be resurrected from it, and no longer having a need for it, it will be cast into the lake of fire, gone eternally. Rev 20:13,14.

Hope you find that good news, I was excited when I first learned that.

 

[Tenchi]

I agree, it’s very disturbing. My main question then is what’s the purpose of it all? I mean for the billions of souls who will suffer for eternity won’t they be asking every day “what the hell is the point of this?” (Pun intended).

God is the point. The entire universe is about Him: His power, His wisdom, His awesome glory, His holiness, His love and excellence. We don't much like this because we are pathologically selfish creatures and want everything to be about us. But God made us to know, love, enjoy and glorify Him, not serve ourselves. When we do, we find meaning, fulfillment and peace we cannot find by any other means.

 

[Kmaxb]

Hi Kmax! Welcome to the forum sir. Hell is the abode of the dead, so all who die go there to await their resurrection, like Jesus did. On a positive note, hells time is limited, after Jesus returns, all will be resurrected from it, and no longer having a need for it, it will be cast into the lake of fire, gone eternally. Rev 20:13,14.

Hope you find that good news, I was excited when I first learned that.

So you don’t believe that Hell is eternal? Doesn’t that go against most of mainstream Christianity?

 

[Kmaxb]

God is the point. The entire universe is about Him: His power, His wisdom, His awesome glory, His holiness, His love and excellence. We don't much like this because we are pathologically selfish creatures and want everything to be about us. But God made us to know, love, enjoy and glorify Him, not serve ourselves. When we do, we find meaning, fulfillment and peace we cannot find by any other means.

Well that sounds good for people in Heaven, but is it a good answer for those who end up in hell? Especially for those who are there because they lived in a time and place where Christianity was never taught?

 

[Tenchi]

Well that sounds good for people in Heaven, but is it a good answer for those who end up in hell? Especially for those who are there because they lived in a time and place where Christianity was never taught?

Well, as I said, God draws near to all who draw near to Him. This is a promise of God's word, the Bible, and the testimony of many whose stories of God's redemption of them I've had the privilege to hear over the years. Muslims, Buddhists, African tribesmen, drug-addled homeless folk, atheists - you name it - I've heard them tell of God reaching out to them in their search for Him through dreams, "divine appointments" with missionaries, sermons over radio and internet, Bibles left in hotel rooms, and so on. There is, then, no one in hell who dearly wanted to know God, and was searching for Him, but could not find Him. No, those in hell are all those who, having some core sense of God, willfully suppressed it in favor of living for themselves. And so, they get in eternity what they pursued during their time on earth: an existence devoid of God.

Paul the apostle pointed out in his letter to the Christians at Rome that there is no one (except those who are mentally disabled, or too young to understand) who does not encounter the truth of God's existence either in Creation, their own conscience, and/or the special revelation of Himself in Christ and the Bible. And so, there is no one in hell who can say, "No fair! I didn't know you existed!" (Romans 1:18-23; Psalms 19:1; Romans 2:12-16)

The story of Rich Man and Lazarus is pertinent to this matter (Luke 16:19-31). Both the Rich Man and Lazarus die but the Rich Man finds himself in flames of torment, while Lazarus encounters the peace and rest of paradise (aka - "Abraham's Bosom"). Not once does the Rich Man protest his place in torment; not once does he try to justify himself, arguing for his right to be where Lazarus is. He's concerned for his loved ones, but appears to recognize that he is exactly where he deserves to be. For the reasons above, I think this is the case for all who go to hell.

 

[Riven]

I agree, it’s very disturbing. My main question then is what’s the purpose of it all? I mean for the billions of souls who will suffer for eternity won’t they be asking every day “what the hell is the point of this?” (Pun intended).

I dont know. Eternal separation from God seems to be the point.

 

[Kmaxb]

Well, as I said, God draws near to all who draw near to Him. This is a promise of God's word, the Bible, and the testimony of many whose stories of God's redemption of them I've had the privilege to hear over the years. Muslims, Buddhists, African tribesmen, drug-addled homeless folk, atheists - you name it - I've heard them tell of God reaching out to them in their search for Him through dreams, "divine appointments" with missionaries, sermons over radio and internet, Bibles left in hotel rooms, and so on. There is, then, no one in hell who dearly wanted to know God, and was searching for Him, but could not find Him. No, those in hell are all those who, having some core sense of God, willfully suppressed it in favor of living for themselves. And so, they get in eternity what they pursued during their time on earth: an existence devoid of God.

Paul the apostle pointed out in his letter to the Christians at Rome that there is no one (except those who are mentally disabled, or too young to understand) who does not encounter the truth of God's existence either in Creation, their own conscience, and/or the special revelation of Himself in Christ and the Bible. And so, there is no one in hell who can say, "No fair! I didn't know you existed!" (Romans 1:18-23; Psalms 19:1; Romans 2:12-16)

The story of Rich Man and Lazarus is pertinent to this matter (Luke 16:19-31). Both the Rich Man and Lazarus die but the Rich Man finds himself in flames of torment, while Lazarus encounters the peace and rest of paradise (aka - "Abraham's Bosom"). Not once does the Rich Man protest his place in torment; not once does he try to justify himself, arguing for his right to be where Lazarus is. He's concerned for his loved ones, but appears to recognize that he is exactly where he deserves to be. For the reasons above, I think this is the case for all who go to hell.

Thank you, that’s a good answer and makes a lot of sense. Do you agree with the previous poster who believes Hell and it’s inhabitants will eventually be destroyed? Meaning Hell is not eternal.

 

[Tenchi]

Thank you that a good answer and makes a lot of sense. Do you agree with the previous poster who believes Hell and it’s inhabitants will eventually be destroyed? Meaning Hell is not eternal.

Inasmuch as a person's sin is ultimately against the infinite God, their sin cannot be properly atoned for by finite means. By this I mean, a person of finite dimensions, in a finite amount of time, cannot rightly atone for their sin against an infinite Creator-God. And so, hell continues on, an everlasting punishment of deeds so evil, in God's view, that such punishment is the only appropriate response.

You see, we're sinful creatures, born into a sinful world, among sinful people who are easy with sin, even loving it, and who urge us at every turn to indulge sin. And so, when God indicates to us just how horrendous our sin really is by punishing it with eternal hell, we think, not that we need to change our view of sin, but that God's over-reacting enormously to the sin we enjoy and love.

Even those who profess to love God, to be His, resist the idea that sin is so bad it deserves eternal punishment. And so, they shade God's word such that it fits better with their ideas about sin. The idea of annihilation, of people in hell being removed from existence entirely, is one of these "shadings." The Bible says that hell is "everlasting punishment" (Matthew 25:46) Punishment can't be enacted upon a mop, or tree stump, or mannequin, though, can it? No, punishment requires consciousness. But by use of slippery wordplay, "punishment" is made by some to refer to the effect of punishment, not punishment itself.

Annihilation ends punishment; the effect of annihilation is to dissolve consciousness completely, to remove a person from existence entirely, and thus to end their punishment. That this effect of punishment is everlasting doesn't make the punishment of annihilation everlasting. Only until evil king Mordant's head is cut off does he suffer the punishment of decapitation. Once his noggin occupies the headsman's basket, Mordant can no longer be punished. Even if the punishment due the evil king was a hundred years of repeated decapitation, only the first chop with the axe would actually punish him. His head could be sewn on and then lopped off again and again for a hundred years but for evil king Mordant, this "punishment" has no effect on him at all. So, too, annihilation.

 

[Kmaxb]

So what was Gods purpose when he created humans who he knew would reject him and be punished for eternity? What is he accomplishing?