Salvation for the ignorant. Duration of Hell. Other questions.

[Kmaxb]

Hello everyone newbie here.

Couple of questions. Curious about Christian theology.

1. A person who lives a good honest life but dies without ever learning about Jesus Christ. Do they go to Hell? And is their experience in Hell the same as a person who lives a life of sin and open rebellion to God?

2. If Gods omniscience’s allows him to know who will end up in Hell, why allow them to be born in the first place?

3. If a persons life of sin is finite, how is it fair for hell to be infinite? At some point have they not paid for their own sins and deserve at least something similar to the catholic view of limbo?

Appreciate your thoughts! And happy Father’s Day

 

[Tenchi]

So what was Gods purpose when he created humans who he knew would reject him and be punished for eternity? What is he accomplishing?

His purposes are many. Chiefly, the universe exists to express the many awesome attributes of God. Sort of like a painting, or sculpture, does the artist who made it. This isn't a perfect analogy, though...

We humans exist to know, love, enjoy and glorify our Creator. God has made us to share in the wonder and excellency of fellowship with Himself. But such fellowship, based in love, can only be freely chosen. Given the freedom to choose to love God, or not, however, the majority of people choose to love themselves instead. But not all. To bring into communion with Himself those comparatively few who draw near to Him, God made the world. His goal wasn't ever to throw people into hell, but to deliver into His heavenly family and kingdom all those who would freely choose to trust in Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord. In a world where people are free to make this choice, though, there will be those who don't - as our world demonstrates. But it is our world, out of all possible worlds, in which the maximum number of people will freely choose to know, love, enjoy and glorify God.

 

[Kmaxb]

That would make sense to me if God was not our creator and we were all destined for hell to begin with. But don’t you believe God is the creator of our souls?

 

[Fastfredy0]

1. A person who lives a good honest life but dies without ever learning about Jesus Christ. Do they go to Hell? And is their experience in Hell the same as a person who lives a life of sin and open rebellion to God?

If you never heard of Christ you go to hell.
There's degrees of punishment in hell.

2. If Gods omniscience’s allows him to know who will end up in Hell, why allow them to be born in the first place?

Thoughtful question. The Bible say God get no pleasure in it. It is a lesson to objects of mercy.
Aside: God could have created an Adam that did not sin (similar idea). Both question are strong evidence that God does not love everyone though a majority of Christians say God loves everyone but that contradicts the facts.

3. If a persons life of sin is finite, how is it fair for hell to be infinite? At some point have they not paid for their own sins and deserve at least something similar to the catholic view of limbo?

Well, God makes the rules of the game.
Wild Guess: Possibly the violation against an infinite God by something of so little value takes that long to satisfy justice.

 

[Kmaxb]

If you never heard of Christ you go to hell.
There's degrees of punishment in hell.

Thoughtful question. The Bible say God get no pleasure in it. It is a lesson to objects of mercy.
Aside: God could have created an Adam that did not sin (similar idea). Both question are strong evidence that God does not love everyone though a majority of Christians say God loves everyone but that contradicts the facts.

Well, God makes the rules of the game.
Wild Guess: Possibly the violation against an infinite God by something of so little value takes that long to satisfy justice.

Hard to trust in a God who doesn’t love everybody though right?

 

[Power_on_HIgh]

3. If a persons life of sin is finite, how is it fair for hell to be infinite? At some point have they not paid for their own sins and deserve at least something similar to the catholic view of limbo?

Its not actually about that...

See, Heaven is a place for Believers in Jesus, who are born again.= Spiritually.
There is no sin found there.
So, SINNERs, have sin, and are not born again, and died a Rejector of Jesus.
You dont put them with the Spiritually Born again believers. who are "made righteous" and are "in Christ" "one with God".
You put them somewhere else.
Hell is created for that one, tho not initially, as initially Hell was created before Adam was created.
"Hell is created for the Devil and His Angels".

Christ REJECTORS, never born again, ... are not recreated born again Spiritually by God's Holy Spirit as a "new Creation in Christ"

A.)
= There are no born again in Hell
= There are no Christ rejectors, never born again, in Heaven.

 

[Tenchi]

That would make sense to me if God was not our creator and we were all destined for hell to begin with. But don’t you believe God is the creator of our souls?

I don't understand what you've written, here.

If God is good, if He is holy, just, and loving as the Bible indicates, then the world He chose to make would reflect those qualities, right? In fact, if a world where everybody would freely choose to know and love God were possible, being the good and loving God that He is, God would have chosen to make that world. But He didn't; He made our world, where many despise and reject Him. From this we can deduce that it isn't possible for God to make a world in which all freely choose to love Him. Instead, God made the world in which the maximum number of people who would freely choose to love and fellowship with Him could do so: our world.

God, though, is God. He occupies a singular category all alone; no one else stands in His category of being with Him. And so, God possesses certain prerogatives no other being possesses, certain powers and rights, that are entirely unique to just Him. For example, since all life is God's doing, since He both gives life and sustains it moment-by-moment, He has the right to take that life, or to use it as He sees fit. God is also all-knowing: He does not gain new knowledge but has always known everything. As a result, God is never deceived, or confused, or disappointed, or surprised. He knows what is True in a way that none of us could ever begin to do. And so, He tells us what is True, what is Real, what is important and what isn't, what is greater and lesser, moral and immoral. When God created everything, He didn't need to ask anyone for permission, or make the universe in such a way as to please anyone but Himself. As the Creator and Sustainer of Everything, He has carte blanche to act in whatever manner, and to whatever purpose, best suits Him. And so He does.

Humans, who like to think themselves the center of everything, who desire to be "masters of their own fate," who crave God's power and authority for themselves, find the reality of their Maker very...uncomfortable. This shows up in a variety of ways but, in particular, in the human practice of sitting in judgment over God and declaring that He should have done this or that, or made a mistake here or there, or isn't as perfect as He thinks He is, and so on. Such judgment is enormously arrogant and evil, really, but we can't seem to help ourselves. We've got an incorrigible god-complex that will damn us to hell, if we don't let God free us from it.

Anyway, yes, I do think God has made us eternal souls. Why do you ask?

 

[Free]

Hard to trust in a God who doesn’t love everybody though right?

Would a loving God force people to love him? Would a just God be unwilling to punish those who reject his decrees and the way of salvation he provided through his own Son?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Hard to trust in a God who doesn’t love everybody though right?

Not for me. For me it's hard to believe a HOLY God could love (volition to favor) the sons of Satan.

Habakkuk 1:13b You cannot look on wickedness with favor, 1 Corinthians 13:6 Love rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth .... Since love means 'to favor', a holy God cannot love the wicked
Colossians 3:14 Love is a bond of unity .... There is no "unity" between God and the sons of Satan
Conclusion: God does not love everyone (unless you mean to a minor degree as in the "rain falls on the wicked and the good" (Matt 5:45).

 

[Fastfredy0]

Would a loving God force people to love him?

No, but He causes them to love Him ..

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
He doesn't have to force man ... God regenerates them [loves man prior to being loved] so that they desire to love God [the effect of regeneration].

 

[Kmaxb]

I don't understand what you've written, here.

If God is good, if He is holy, just, and loving as the Bible indicates, then the world He chose to make would reflect those qualities, right? In fact, if a world where everybody would freely choose to know and love God were possible, being the good and loving God that He is, God would have chosen to make that world. But He didn't; He made our world, where many despise and reject Him. From this we can deduce that it isn't possible for God to make a world in which all freely choose to love Him. Instead, God made the world in which the maximum number of people who would freely choose to love and fellowship with Him could do so: our world.

God, though, is God. He occupies a singular category all alone; no one else stands in His category of being with Him. And so, God possesses certain prerogatives no other being possesses, certain powers and rights, that are entirely unique to just Him. For example, since all life is God's doing, since He both gives life and sustains it moment-by-moment, He has the right to take that life, or to use it as He sees fit. God is also all-knowing: He does not gain new knowledge but has always known everything. As a result, God is never deceived, or confused, or disappointed, or surprised. He knows what is True in a way that none of us could ever begin to do. And so, He tells us what is True, what is Real, what is important and what isn't, what is greater and lesser, moral and immoral. When God created everything, He didn't need to ask anyone for permission, or make the universe in such a way as to please anyone but Himself. As the Creator and Sustainer of Everything, He has carte blanche to act in whatever manner, and to whatever purpose, best suits Him. And so He does.

Humans, who like to think themselves the center of everything, who desire to be "masters of their own fate," who crave God's power and authority for themselves, find the reality of their Maker very...uncomfortable. This shows up in a variety of ways but, in particular, in the human practice of sitting in judgment over God and declaring that He should have done this or that, or made a mistake here or there, or isn't as perfect as He thinks He is, and so on. Such judgment is enormously arrogant and evil, really, but we can't seem to help ourselves. We've got an incorrigible god-complex that will damn us to hell, if we don't let God free us from it.

Anyway, yes, I do think God has made us eternal souls. Why do you ask?

The reason I ask is because if God created our souls then is he not responsible for the ultimate state of our souls? If I am going to Hell, then God knew that before he created me right? That doesn’t mean he’s responsible for my actions, but it does beg the question of why he created me in the first place. What’s the point of allowing my existence if my ultimate ending would be an eternity of suffering? What does God get out of this? And how does that not make him a cruel being?
(Please know I’m not trying to argue or be disrespectful in anyway, nothing but love for you all I’m honestly trying to understand and don’t know how to better do that than by questioning)

 

[Fastfredy0]

And how does that not make him a cruel being?

Definition of cruel: Disposed to inflict pain or suffering.
Yep, God does inflict pain or suffering. You got a point.

What does God get out of this?

Romans 9:13-19 is the preamble where God chooses to love Joseph and hate Esau before they were born

Then it goes on to say such a question is "out of order" basically IMO
Roman 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers [arrogantly] back to God and dares to defy Him? Will the thing which is formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does the potter not have the right over the clay, to make from the same lump [of clay] one object for honorable use [something beautiful or distinctive] and another for common use [something ordinary or menial]? 22 What if God, although willing to show His [terrible] wrath and to make His power known, has tolerated with great patience the objects of His wrath [which are] prepared for destruction? 23 And what if He has done so to make known the riches of His glory to the objects of His mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory,

 

[Kmaxb]

Definition of cruel: Disposed to inflict pain or suffering.
Yep, God does inflict pain or suffering. You got a point.


Romans 9:13-19 is the preamble where God chooses to love Joseph and hate Esau before they were born

Then it goes on to say such a question is "out of order" basically IMO
Roman 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers [arrogantly] back to God and dares to defy Him? Will the thing which is formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does the potter not have the right over the clay, to make from the same lump [of clay] one object for honorable use [something beautiful or distinctive] and another for common use [something ordinary or menial]? 22 What if God, although willing to show His [terrible] wrath and to make His power known, has tolerated with great patience the objects of His wrath [which are] prepared for destruction? 23 And what if He has done so to make known the riches of His glory to the objects of His mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory,

Fastfredy you seem to differ in your beliefs than most of the others here, would you agree?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Fastfredy you seem to differ in your beliefs than most of the others here, would you agree?

Yes .. I suppose so.... but there is a lot of disagreement in here.

The majority opinion these days is simply:

1. God is love
2. God loves everyone without exception

Gee, many people in here invent another way to be saved without knowing Christ to support the idea that God loves everyone (and it is therefore assumed that God has to give everyone a chance)

 

[Kmaxb]

Yes .. I suppose so.... but there is a lot of disagreement in here.

The majority opinion these days is simply:

1. God is love
2. God loves everyone without exception

Gee, many people in here invent another way to be saved without knowing Christ to support the idea that God loves everyone (and it is therefore assumed that God has to give everyone a chance)

Would you say then that your views are not quite representative of mainstream Christianity?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Would you say then that your views are not quite representative of mainstream Christianity?

Yes, especially if you consider R.C.s Christians.
I don't think there is mainstream Christianity depending on how you define the term.

I often say "if you ask 10 Christians what it takes to be saved you will get 9 different answers" ... assuming you ask for details.

 

[Kmaxb]

Yes, especially if you consider R.C.s Christians.
I don't think there is mainstream Christianity depending on how you define the term.

I often say "if you ask 10 Christians what it takes to be saved you will get 9 different answers" ... assuming you ask for details.

I suppose I should have said evangelical Christianity.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I suppose I should have said evangelical Christianity.

I don't think "evangelical Chirstianity" can be categorized as mainstream if you define mainstream as an entity that can list 20 doctrines that they all agree to. Heck, getting to point that 1/2 the Christian congregations are OK with gay marriage and clergy.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I think it’s the order of things that causes some to believe scripture and others to believe as they see fit…

Search for Him…knock and the door shall be opened…

Brought to senses repent and learn about Jesus Christ.

I’m not really dogmatic or authoritarian but I do try to accept and love and obey God on God’s terms. I think that’s true of many believers across the established/visible church ️…

 

[Fastfredy0]

There's only 2 Christian groups that can list more than 2,000 words as to what their doctrine is . Read almost any Statement of Faith of most churches and chances are good is will be short (I assume to appease the many disagreements of its members).

 

[Kmaxb]

I don't think "evangelical Chirstianity" can be categorized as mainstream if you define mainstream as an entity that can list 20 doctrines that they all agree to. Heck, getting to point that 1/2 the Christian congregations are OK with gay marriage and clergy.

Most Christians I talk to defend their doctrines by stating that the Bible “says what it means and means what it says” or something similar to that. But when I ask why there are so many denominations with such stark differences they tend to disagree and state that they all basically share the same core doctrines. But I’m with you, I see major differences between them due to a number of different interpretations of scripture.