Salvation through Christ alone not works less any man should boast.

[spartakis]

I just want to say there are many topics I could put this in, but this thread is being started because a thread in science section has went off topic. I am opening this for discussion from there to be moved here.

The off topic discussion was between being saved by works or faith in Christ. Just wanted to give the an opportunity for those on that thread to explain themselves. I do not plan on spinning my wheels and do not have a lot of time to spend here.

Want to look at some in context scripture about salvation and what Jesus and others say.


Matt 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Here you see pepole at the gates that are professing their works instead of faith in Christ. You see only those that do the will of the father will enter the kingdom. The will of the father is below.

John 6:39-40 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.



John 14:5-6 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Not him plus works. He did not say he is a way but the way.


Titus 3:4-7
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Does not say and do good works to keep thy salvation.

If you believe you can earn your way to heaven you are saying Christ died in vain. That didn't happen.

Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

 

[savedbygrace57]

If you believe you can earn your way to heaven you are saying Christ died in
vain. That didn't happen.

So do you believe that there will be anyone Christ died for that shall not be saved by His Death for them ?

 

[spartakis]

So do you believe that there will be anyone Christ died for that shall not be saved by His Death for them ?

If they accept Christ as their saviour, no he will not turn them away.

 

[savedbygrace57]

If they accept Christ as their saviour, no he will not turn them away.

Then you believe in salvation by your works, something you must do ! Accepting Christ is something you do right ? If it is something you do, its a work, simple as that ! You have reason to boast against the next guy who did not do what you did !

 

[WIP]

Is faith something you do or something you have?

 

[DavidThompson]

The Devil's done a good job keeping believers docile. Let's see what Paul had to say on the matter of works:

Rom_3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Now, what did James had to say about works:

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Men are justified by works??

Christians lack understanding! Your salvation (life) is NOT based on works, because ever since the Law was given, men FAILED to keep it. In fact, we are all concluded in sin except Jesus.

Gal_3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Since we failed to keep the law, which is the definition of sin:

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Now we understand why we need a Saviour - because we have all sinned, and the wages of sin is death.

Php_3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

So when Jesus came to save you from your sins, he was saving you from the punishment of being a breaker of the law, which is set and sure: death. By being the sacrifice in place of us, we are free from the law of SIN and DEATH. In prior times, we were bound by it, but now we are no longer under that law, but we have liberty, and are found free from the punishment of death

But I ask you, shall we sin that grace may abound? Let me put it this way: If you go to court because you killed someone, and someone said, 'Judge, I will take the place of this guilty one, just let him go' and the judge agrees, will you go back to freedom and kill another person? Do you now have a license to kill? Won't you be back in front of the judge, and put the one who saved you to an open shame?

 

[Lloyd]

I never quite understand the complication of this. The whole faith vs works thing.

How can you say you believe in Christ, yet act as though you don't? They go hand-in-hand with the grace God has given you as an individual.

It's like saying you're not a racist, then saying racist slurs. Talk is cheap. Your faith will be proved by how you are as a person.

My works are not my salvation.. agreed, but they certainly give an indication on whether I live for myself or Christ.

If someone lives the best life possible, living each day for Christ, and believes with all their heart in Christ as their salvation, then AMEN!

If someone lives a selfish life, does what they want and at their death bed turns to Christ and are saved, then AMEN!

All glory to God through his Son, Jesus Christ. I'll let God run the show, I'll just do my very best to live the life Christ called me to live. We, who have tasted the goodness and grace of God have no excuse for the life we live. No excuse whatsoever - in each moment we should do all we can to please Him.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Is faith something you do or something you have?

Both !

 

[Mike]

So SBG stretches out from the Calvinism threads to turn this into a discussion on... Calvinism. Let's give the OP a chance to have his discussion before we take off track, okay?

Lloyd had it right IMO. Our works are a response to His Love; not a way to earn it.

 

[Stan53]

I have to say that this topic gets far too much discussion. God's word is clear but for some reason, I can't tell if it is abstinence, obtuseness or just plain lack of understanding, there are always people that confuse faith for salvation with faith for daily living. It comes in many forms. I have faith that when I flip a light switch up, that my lights will come on. I have faith that my dog will come when I call her. I have faith that my mother loves me no matter what I do. I have faith that God IS who He says He is. Just as there are different types of sins, but they are all still sin, there are different types of faith, but all still faith.

Heb 11... I suggest EVERYONE read this chapter. It's full of FAITH.

Eph 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Romans 10:8-10
“The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,†that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,†and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
Luke 7:50
Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.â€

James 2:14-26, is talking to believers, v14, and in context is saying that the faith you had, that lead you to salvation, is required to grow and mature, as he says in chapter 1:4. Babies are born breathing, and go from there. Christians are born AGAIN with faith, and grow from there.
What is so hard to assimilate in these verses?
Faith is ALL we need to be saved.

 

[Digger]

[FONT=Georgia, serif]Ephesians 2:1-10 Commentary.


Eph 2:1[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] And you [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]hath he quickened,[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] who were dead in trespasses and sins; [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]God does the quickening. We don't quicken ourselves. He quickens us when we are still dead in our trespasses and sins for we cannot make ourselves alive. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Look at these verse below...[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Col 2:11[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Col 2:12[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]him[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Col 2:13[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Col 2:13 connects the quickening with the forgiveness of sin. Look at this verse...[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Act 3:19[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Here we have sins getting blotted out at the time of the refreshing. Notice that repentance and conversion are conditions set forth for this to occur.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Refreshing[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] - [/FONT]anapsuxis
[FONT=Georgia, serif]From [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]G404[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]; properly a [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]recovery[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]of[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]breath[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], that is, (figuratively) [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]revival:[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] - revival.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Quickened[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] - [/FONT]suzōopoieō
[FONT=Georgia, serif]From [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]G4862[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] and [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]G2227[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]; to [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]reanimate[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]conjointly[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] with (figuratively): - quicken together with.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]If the context of these verses is studied in conjunction with their definitions it is clearly see that these two words have to do with the with the revival of our spirit. This is a direct parallell to being raised up by God. It is especially evident in Col 2:12 and the result is walking in newness of life (Rom 6:4).[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Rom 6:4[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]even so we also should walk in newness of life. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Rom 6:5[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]we shall be also [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]in the likeness[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] of [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]his[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] resurrection: [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Rom 6:6[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]him,[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif][FONT=Georgia, serif]Rom 8:11[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] that dwelleth in you. [/FONT][/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Col 2:12[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]ye are risen with [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]him[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] through the faith of the operation of God,[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] who hath raised him from the dead. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Col 2:13[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Operation[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] - [/FONT]energeia
[FONT=Georgia, serif]en-erg'-i-ah[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]From [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]G1756[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]; [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]efficiency[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] (“energyâ€): - operation, strong, (effectual) working.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]The quickening, the refreshing, and the operation of God are all references to exactly the same thing. It is an effectual working of the power of God within the soul of a repentant sinner. It is tied to the forgiveness of sins (Act 3:19, Col 2:13) and it is conditional on walking in the light (1Joh 1:7).[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]God gives this power to those who receive Him, we do not give this power to ourselves but it is conditioned on receiving Him. This is what being born again actually means, we are born from above by the power of God.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]J[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]oh 1:12[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]even[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] to them that believe on his name: [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 1:13[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]How do we receive Him? By doing this...[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Jas 1:21[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Jas 1:22[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]We lay apart all filthiness and overflowing of wickedness FIRST and then we can receive with meekness the implanted word. This is why repentance comes before salvation.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]2Co 7:10[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]God is not going to raise you up unless you first deny yourself and pick up your cross and follow Him. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Mar 8:34[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] And when he had called the people [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]unto him[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] with his disciples also, he said unto them, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Mar 8:35[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]A grain of wheat must die before it can bring forth fruit.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh_12:24[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]This is when we die with Christ in repentance crucifying our old man (Rom 6:6) which is the same as putting off the body of sins of the flesh (Col 2:11) which is why that those who are Christ's HAVE (PAST TENSE) crucified their flesh with its passions and desires (Gal 5:24).[/FONT]

 

[Digger]

[FONT=Georgia, serif][/FONT]Continuing in Ephesians 2.

[FONT=Georgia, serif]Eph 2:2[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]A true Christian walked in times past according to the course of the world and Satan. Not anymore though because they repented and forsook that lifestyle. The old man lived according to the flesh but that old man has been crucified.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]1Pe 4:1[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]1Pe 4:2[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] That [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]he no longer should live the rest of [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]his[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]There is a change from one state to another and thus we no longer live according the flesh.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Rom 8:13[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Rom 8:14[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]See how 1Pet 4:2 connects to Rom 8:13? Gal 5:16 is another parallel scripture.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Gal 5:16[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]This[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]None of this is optional, if you walk after the flesh you will perish just like it says in Rom 8:13.[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, serif]Eternal life is in yielding to the Spirit.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Gal 6:8[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Let's keep reading Ephesians 2.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Eph 2:3[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Conversation[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] - [/FONT]anastrepho
[FONT=Georgia, serif]From [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]G303[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] and [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]G4762[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]; to [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]overturn[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]; also to [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]return[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]; by implication to [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]busy[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] oneself, that is, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]remain[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]live:[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] - abide, behave self, have conversation, live, overthrow, pass, return, be used.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Eph 2:3 speaks of the former walk of the Christian, how they walked in the lusts of their flesh. In thos former walk the old man was not crucified, the passions and desires of the flesh were not crucified, and there was no walking after the Spirit. Due to this walk of rebellion we were children of wrath, it was our very nature. Not a nature we were born with, but a nature that we developed through the repeated yielding to sin.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Nature[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] - [/FONT]phusis
[FONT=Georgia, serif]From [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]G5453[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]; [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]growth[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] (by [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]germination[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] or [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]expansion[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]), that is, (by implication) natural [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]production[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] (lineal [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]descent[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]); by extension a [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]genus[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] or [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]sort[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]; figuratively native [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]disposition[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]constitution[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] or [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]usage:[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] - ([man-]) kind, nature ([-al]).[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Out nature is a native disposition that grows. It is even clearer if you use some of the other lexicon's like Thayer's etc. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Rom 2:14-15 speak of doing the right thing by nature thus there are two sides to the coin. Those who promote original sin often take Eph 2:3 , isolate it and then rip it out of context to prove that we are born sinners. It is a lie.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Nature is also used in 2 Pet 1:4 where it speaks of the divine nature after having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Any person who is still in bondage to the lusts of the flesh cannot partake in the divine nature because the flesh and the spirit are mutually exclusive. The flesh with its lusts must be crucified. They don't teach you that in church. Don't be deceived, this is not a game for your soul is at stake.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]2Pe 1:4[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Another paralell passage to Eph 2:3 is found in Ephesians 5.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Eph 5:3[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]let it not be once named among you[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], as becometh saints; [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Eph 5:4[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Eph 5:5[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] For this ye know, that [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Eph 5:6[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Eph 5:7[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Be not ye therefore partakers with them. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]The conduct of the children of wrath in Eph 2:3 and the children of disobedience in Eph 5:6 are the same. Paul warns to not let anyone deceive you with vain words because if you do those things you will not escape judgment for them (1 Cor 6:9-10).[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Let's keep reading in Ephesians 2.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Eph 2:4[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Eph 2:5[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Here Paul speaks of God's mercy and how he loved us so much that he quickened us when we were dead in sins. Paul connects the quickening to the grace of God. This quickening saves us, we are still dead in our sins until it occurs (Act 3:19, Col 2:13, 1 Joh 1:7, Heb 9:14). [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Paul is not teaching here that you get saved in your sins. The quickening is conditioned on repentance and conversion (Act 3:19), dying to self (Joh 12:24), laying aside all known sin (Jam 1:21, Joh 1:12-13), being buried into the death of Christ (Rom 6:4-5), putting off the body of sins by the circumcision of Christ (Col 2:10-13). [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]The moment before you are quickened you are still dead in your sins. We cannot quicken ourselves. The act of forsaking all known sin in a broken repentance does not quicken us, it is merely fulfilling a condition that God demands before He will raise us up.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]This raising up is also an ongoing thing as our minds are continually renewed (2Cor 4:16) as we look forward to ultimately being raised up in glorified bodies (Rom 6:5).[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Let's keep reading...[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Eph 2:6[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] And hath raised [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]us[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] up together, and made [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]us[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] sit together in heavenly [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]places[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] in Christ Jesus: [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]We are raised up together with Christ exactly as it says in Rom 6:4-5 and Col 2:12[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif][/FONT]

 

[Digger]

[FONT=Georgia, serif]Eph 2:7[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]his[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Eph 2:8[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]it is[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] the gift of God: [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Eph 2:9[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Eph 2:10[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]We are God's workmanship through the power of his grace.[/FONT]


Grace - charis
[FONT=Georgia, serif]From [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]G5463[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]; [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]graciousness[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] (as [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]gratifying[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]gratitude[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).[/FONT]



[FONT=Georgia, serif]Remember how Paul tied the quickening to grace is verse 5.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Eph 2:5[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) [/FONT]



[FONT=Georgia, serif]Grace is the power of God, it is divine influence on the heart. It has appears to all men teaching them how to live.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Tit 2:11[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] For the [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]grace of God that bringeth salvation[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] hath appeared to all men, [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Tit 2:12[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; [/FONT]



[FONT=Georgia, serif]It is the grace of God that brings salvation through the initial drawing on our conscience (Joh 1:9) and through the preaching of the Gospel when we hear it. If we respond to the call through a genuine repentance and faith God will quicken us, He will raise us up to new life.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]We have to yield to the work of grace through an obedient faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God and thus faith is a gift of God but we have to diligently seek God and he will reward us.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Heb 11:6[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] But [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]without faith [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]it is[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] impossible to please [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]him:[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]that[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. [/FONT]



[FONT=Georgia, serif]We access the grace of God through faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Rom 5:2[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. [/FONT]



[FONT=Georgia, serif]We receive grace for obedience to the faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Rom 1:5[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: [/FONT]



[FONT=Georgia, serif]Saving faith is a working faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Jas 2:17[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. [/FONT]



[FONT=Georgia, serif]Noah by faith took action and built an ark. Was he saving himself or earning his salvation?[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Heb 11:7[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. [/FONT]



[FONT=Georgia, serif]Was Abraham earning his salvation, being prideful and self righteous by obeying God?[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Heb 11:8[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. [/FONT]



[FONT=Georgia, serif]When the Israelites marched around Jericho 7 times in obedience to God where they saving themselves, being self righteous, being prideful, or saying look at me like a Pharisee?[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Heb 11:30[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. [/FONT]



[FONT=Georgia, serif]Is someone who teaches that you must repent and forsake your sins BEFORE God will forgive you being self righteous, prideful, saving themselves, counting on their own power? That is what many would have you believe. [/FONT]



[FONT=Georgia, serif]Many would also have you believe that works are not necessary and they will twist scripted like Rom 4:1-6 out of context, never showing you Rom 4:12 which speaks of Abraham walking in the steps of faith (faith without works is dead Jam 2:17-24). Rom 4:20-24 teaches that saving faith is a full persuasion of the mind which harmonises with the working faith taught in Hebrews 11.[/FONT]



[FONT=Georgia, serif]Grace is the power of God that He provides by His good graciousness. We have to apply it through an active obedient faith. When we apply the grace of God to our lives through an active obedient faith we are working together with God. This is synergism and this is what the Bible plainly teaches.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]2Co 6:1[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] We then, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]as[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] workers together [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]with him,[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] beseech [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]you[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Workers Together - [/FONT]sunergeō
[FONT=Georgia, serif]From [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]G4904[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]; to [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]be[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]a[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]fellow[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]worker[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], that is, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]co-operate:[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] - help (work) with, work (-er) together.[/FONT]



[FONT=Georgia, serif]If you are not a worker together with God then you receive grace in vain. God requires us to be a doer of the word and not a hearer only.[/FONT]



[FONT=Georgia, serif]We have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Do you know what work out means?[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Php 2:12[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Work Out - [/FONT]katergazomai
[FONT=Georgia, serif]From [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]G2596[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] and [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]G2038[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]; to [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]work[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]fully[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], that is, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]accomplish[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]; by implication to [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]finish[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]fashion:[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] - cause, do (deed), perform, work (out).[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]See it is God that works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure but we have to put it to use by faith and work fully, accomplish, finish, perform in order to put it to use.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Php 2:13[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]his[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] good pleasure. [/FONT]



[FONT=Georgia, serif][/FONT]

 

[Digger]

[FONT=Georgia, serif]Php 2:13 is the grace of God and Php 2:12 is our faith. We are saved by grace through faith which is what Eph 2:8 says. We are not saved of ourselves just like Noah was not saved of himself, Noah was a worker together with God and we are to be workers together with God too.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]God is the author of salvation of those who obey Him. Those who are obeying Him are putting to use His grace by faith. They are abiding in Jesus Christ and they bear much fruit.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Heb 5:9[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] And being made perfect, he became [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; [/FONT]



[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 15:4[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 15:5[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]I am the vine, ye[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]are[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.[/FONT]



[FONT=Georgia, serif]Obedient faith purifies the heart.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Act 15:9[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] And put no difference between us and them, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]purifying their hearts by faith. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]1Pe 1:22[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Seeing [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]see that ye[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] love one another with a pure heart fervently: [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]1Pe 1:23[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]Being born again[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. [/FONT]



[FONT=Georgia, serif]Those with a pure heart are those who will see God.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Mat 5:8[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]Blessed[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]are[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]the pure in heart: for they shall see God.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]We all have a Bible. Dig deep and study to show thyself approved.[/FONT]



[FONT=Georgia, serif]God bless.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Mat 7:21[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Mat 7:22[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Mat 7:23[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.[/FONT]

 

[Stan53]

Hey Digger? I didn't really see an answer in you 3 page post. Maybe you can address the actual OP?

 

[Digger]

Hey Digger? I didn't really see an answer in you 3 page post. Maybe you can address the actual OP?

You may not see it but there is an answer in there.

It is an article I wrote and I thought it relevant. I'm not interested to debate and go back and forth, we all have a Bible and the truth is available to all those who sincerely seek it.

Faith IS a work. Faith is a full persuasion of the mind which translates into the dynamic working principle by which those who know God are doers of the word and not hearers only.

Jesus preached works but those works are to be sourced from a pure heart.



The error in the opening post is that no distinction is made between outward works done apart from God (outward form of godliness) and deeds done through a faith that works by love (inward purity).

Salvation is not of the law in the sense that there is nothing outward one can do, in and of itself, to become righteous. Also returning to the obedience of the law cannot undo the condemnation due for past transgression (the law brings death, not life). This is the context of the "no works" verses, they are not teaching that you do not have to do anything.

Salvation is by the grace of God through a process that He has granted to us. God,who in His love for us, sent His Son to die on our behalf that we may be reconciled to God through abiding in Him having our previous sins purged through this reconciliation process and our hearts also being purified.

Jesus preached works! Jesus clearly taught that we must STRIVE, that we must deny ourselves and pick up our cross, that we must keep His commandments (D do what He said), that we must be doers of the word and not hearers only. Those are actions that we are to take, those are things we have to do, thus they are works by the very definition of the word.

It is an obedient faith which purifies the heart because it is only through an obedient faith that we can access the blood of Jesus Christ. Without an obedient faith heart purity is impossible.


Many will harp on the "no works" verses and use them to imply that striving, obedience, purity, etc. are all secondary. These people have erroneously made the false assumption that the "no works" verses are speaking about all deeds. They are not.

The "no works" verses are in the context firstly that there is nothing one can do apart from God to be saved nor anything one can do to make God owe you salvation.

Secondly the "no works" verses are in the context that outward actions do not make one righteousness. An individual could choose not to commit murder or steal for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with being righteous. True righteousness proceeds from a pure heart and that is why Jesus told the Pharisees to clean that which is within first so that the outside may be clean.

Jesus gave Himself so that people be purified from within. An outward appearance of purity without an inward cleansing is worthless.

 

[Elijah674]

You may not see it but there is an answer in there.

It is an article I wrote and I thought it relevant. I'm not interested to debate and go back and forth, we all have a Bible and the truth is available to all those who sincerely seek it.

Faith IS a work. Faith is a full persuasion of the mind which translates into the dynamic working principle by which those who know God are doers of the word and not hearers only.

Jesus preached works but those works are to be sourced from a pure heart.



The error in the opening post is that no distinction is made between outward works done apart from God (outward form of godliness) and deeds done through a faith that works by love (inward purity).

Salvation is not of the law in the sense that there is nothing outward one can do, in and of itself, to become righteous. Also returning to the obedience of the law cannot undo the condemnation due for past transgression (the law brings death, not life). This is the context of the "no works" verses, they are not teaching that you do not have to do anything.

Salvation is by the grace of God through a process that He has granted to us. God,who in His love for us, sent His Son to die on our behalf that we may be reconciled to God through abiding in Him having our previous sins purged through this reconciliation process and our hearts also being purified.

Jesus preached works! Jesus clearly taught that we must STRIVE, that we must deny ourselves and pick up our cross, that we must keep His commandments (D do what He said), that we must be doers of the word and not hearers only. Those are actions that we are to take, those are things we have to do, thus they are works by the very definition of the word.

It is an obedient faith which purifies the heart because it is only through an obedient faith that we can access the blood of Jesus Christ. Without an obedient faith heart purity is impossible.


Many will harp on the "no works" verses and use them to imply that striving, obedience, purity, etc. are all secondary. These people have erroneously made the false assumption that the "no works" verses are speaking about all deeds. They are not.

The "no works" verses are in the context firstly that there is nothing one can do apart from God to be saved nor anything one can do to make God owe you salvation.

Secondly the "no works" verses are in the context that outward actions do not make one righteousness. An individual could choose not to commit murder or steal for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with being righteous. True righteousness proceeds from a pure heart and that is why Jesus told the Pharisees to clean that which is within first so that the outside may be clean.

Jesus gave Himself so that people be purified from within. An outward appearance of purity without an inward cleansing is worthless.

Very good material. Exactly as that of the child that we are, with the Father wanting us to MATURE!;)

And Titus 3:9-11? That Truth tell's one who is VERY VAIN with the same over & over daily false stuff, what their problem is.

And of course OBEDIENCE come from a Loving Born Again MOTIVE TO SERVE! [means WORK,] die or whatever? And the POWER comes from Phil. 4:13 + 2 Cor. 12:9 if LOVE IS THERE??? (the question marks are for others!)

--Elijah

 

[Stan53]

You may not see it but there is an answer in there.

It is an article I wrote and I thought it relevant. I'm not interested to debate and go back and forth, we all have a Bible and the truth is available to all those who sincerely seek it.

Faith IS a work. Faith is a full persuasion of the mind which translates into the dynamic working principle by which those who know God are doers of the word and not hearers only.

Jesus preached works but those works are to be sourced from a pure heart.



The error in the opening post is that no distinction is made between outward works done apart from God (outward form of godliness) and deeds done through a faith that works by love (inward purity).

Salvation is not of the law in the sense that there is nothing outward one can do, in and of itself, to become righteous. Also returning to the obedience of the law cannot undo the condemnation due for past transgression (the law brings death, not life). This is the context of the "no works" verses, they are not teaching that you do not have to do anything.

Salvation is by the grace of God through a process that He has granted to us. God,who in His love for us, sent His Son to die on our behalf that we may be reconciled to God through abiding in Him having our previous sins purged through this reconciliation process and our hearts also being purified.

Jesus preached works! Jesus clearly taught that we must STRIVE, that we must deny ourselves and pick up our cross, that we must keep His commandments (D do what He said), that we must be doers of the word and not hearers only. Those are actions that we are to take, those are things we have to do, thus they are works by the very definition of the word.

It is an obedient faith which purifies the heart because it is only through an obedient faith that we can access the blood of Jesus Christ. Without an obedient faith heart purity is impossible.


Many will harp on the "no works" verses and use them to imply that striving, obedience, purity, etc. are all secondary. These people have erroneously made the false assumption that the "no works" verses are speaking about all deeds. They are not.

The "no works" verses are in the context firstly that there is nothing one can do apart from God to be saved nor anything one can do to make God owe you salvation.

Secondly the "no works" verses are in the context that outward actions do not make one righteousness. An individual could choose not to commit murder or steal for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with being righteous. True righteousness proceeds from a pure heart and that is why Jesus told the Pharisees to clean that which is within first so that the outside may be clean.

Jesus gave Himself so that people be purified from within. An outward appearance of purity without an inward cleansing is worthless.

Well if you're not interested in debating then I guess I should just ignore your posts, is that what you're telling me?

 

[farouk]

James's Epistle shows that one demonstrates the reality of one's faith by one's works. Though the works themselves do not gain any saving merit with God (Ephesians 2.8,9).

 

[Stan53]

James's Epistle shows that one demonstrates the reality of one's faith by one's works. Though the works themselves do not gain any saving merit with God (Ephesians 2.8,9).

in CONTEXT, James is NOT talking about Salvation, He is talking TO saved people about their walk AFTER salvation.