Salvation: What is it from and when will it be obtained?

[Guest]

Incorrect.

If so, how you explain this:

But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.

This text, in my opinion, clearly shows that the awarding of eternal life is (1) based on good works; (2) given out at a future date.

Note: I am - trust me on this - acutely aware of all those texts that say we are not saved by "works". Well, context shows that Paul is denying salvation by works of the Law of Moses, not good works. Different thing altogether.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. Who is HIM? What is HE capable of?

 

[francisdesales]

Incorrect.

If so, how you explain this:

But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.

This text, in my opinion, clearly shows that the awarding of eternal life is (1) based on good works; (2) given out at a future date.

Note: I am - trust me on this - acutely aware of all those texts that say we are not saved by "works". Well, context shows that Paul is denying salvation by works of the Law of Moses, not good works. Different thing altogether.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. Who is HIM? What is HE capable of?

and continuing:

I pray that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation as you come to know him, 18 so that, with the eyes of your heart enlightened, you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, Eph 1:17,18a

And again:

I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, making every effort to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling, Eph 4:1-4a

Hope is something not yet attained, not given yet. There is a set of conditions laid out by Paul. Maintain that bond of peace. We were called to a hope. And Paul begs us to live a life worthy of that calling. Paul states that It is something set before us, and as long as we remain in Christ, we inherit the free gift.

Regards

 

[Guest]

Salvation is obtained when we accept Jesus Christ into our hearts as we walk this earth. Salvation is available to anyone at any time. Salvation is love, mercy and peace from Heaven from my own experience. God the Father sends down his Holy Spirit to you as a gift. You are then sealed with the Holy Spirit until you die. Blessings.

 

[farouk]

'Salvation is of the Lord' (Jonah 2.9).

 

[TimothyW]

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

This passage doesn't work to support you. Why would we need to be "sealed" if we already have received the reward? Why would we need a guarantee of our inheritance if we have already received our inheritance? And verse 14 even says "until we acquire possession of it", clearly this means that we have not already acquired possession of our inheritance.

 

[Guest]

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

This passage doesn't work to support you. Why would we need to be "sealed" if we already have received the reward? Why would we need a guarantee of our inheritance if we have already received our inheritance? And verse 14 even says "until we acquire possession of it", clearly this means that we have not already acquired possession of our inheritance.

We need to be sealed so the Holy Spirit can separate us and sanctify us from the world. Any one person cannot be Holy without the Holy Spirit living inside of them. It's only by His works on the cross that we are granted salvation. Salvation is a gift from God. Heaven is a Holy place. You cannot enter Holy land after you die without being born of the Holy Spirit first before you die here on this earth. John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.â€

 

[francisdesales]

Salvation is obtained when we accept Jesus Christ into our hearts as we walk this earth. Salvation is available to anyone at any time. Salvation is love, mercy and peace from Heaven from my own experience. God the Father sends down his Holy Spirit to you as a gift. You are then sealed with the Holy Spirit until you die. Blessings.

A person is not currently saved - even if they once were - if they return to a life of sin and have turned from the ways of the Lord. They need to be rescued again...

Regards

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

First off, let me start by stating my premise that I think salvation means being rescued from the curse of sin, death. What I mean by death is simply death, not Hell, not purgatory, not 'soul sleep', but death. I actually do believe that once a person RECEIVES salvation, they have it, and will not lose it. My contention is that salvation isn't received when one decides to BECOME a christian, but rather at the end of one's "christian race."

It is my contention that salvation is NOT received on this side of life at all. For the saints who are faithful unto death, there is a crown of righteousness awaiting them. That crown is not given until after our life is past. Since salvation is not received in this life, but in the world to come, I believe it cannot be lost at that time, and therefore, once saved, always saved.
But just so I am 100% clear, I do not believe that ANYONE living is among the saved YET.

@Withheld This thread may shed some light on my confusing question from the other thread.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

c'MON, T over T - what game are you playing?

This thread addresses my question in more detail.

 

[ejected]

Salvation is more than escaping hell and gaining heaven. What was lost with the first Adam was restored by The second Adam.
Adam broke the bond between him and God. That sin passed down through all of mankind. We are not sinners because we sin, but we sin because we are sinners. Born in sin and shaped in iniquity.
Paradise lost or mans relationship with his Creator severed.
His fallen creatures were in a real fix. God provided a payment for that rebellion and sin. That lost communion between men and His God needed to be restored.
The Lamb of God was offered up as payment. The way Back to that fellowship with the Father was provided.
Salvation is here and it is now, waiting for the full restoration of all things created with glorified bodies down the road not withstanding.
The kingdom is within us. My salvation is secure, my walk with God is solid, I hear constantly the Shepherds stirrings and breathings, the peace that passes all understanding is mine, His material provision for me is steady, and I see His hand in my life daily performing on my behalf. I remember when none of this was so in my life.
What am I saved from? In a word. Me!

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Salvation is more than escaping hell and gaining heaven.

Agreed. I'd go as far as to say that salvation has nothing to do with Heaven or Hell. http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=33387&highlight=

What am I saved from? In a word. Me!

Why would you need to be saved from yourself? Mankind needed to be saved from the wrath of God and from the wages of sin, death. Jesus conquered death giving man the opportunity to be saved from its clutches. The gift of age lasting life (victory over death) is not something we get to experience in this life.

 

[josefnospam]

My contention is that salvation isn't received when one decides to BECOME a christian, but rather at the end of one's "christian race."

Salvation is from Jesus Christ. It was given to All God choose before he made the world, and Christ came and died to ensure his sheep receive it by his will and in his appointed time. It is ALL of God, from beginning to end.

 

[josefnospam]

Jesus conquered death giving man the opportunity to be saved from its clutches.

God doesn't give men an opportunity to be saved...........He saves all his people without fail. God does not try to do anything. He does what he pleases, with whom he pleases, when he pleases. He is God almighty...............

 

[TOG]

I just noticed this thread today and haven't read every post, so someone may have already said what I am going to say. The OP states three things.

First off, let me start by stating my premise that I think salvation means being rescued from the curse of sin, death. What I mean by death is simply death, not Hell, not purgatory, not 'soul sleep', but death.

The first thing stated in the OP is that salvation means being saved from the curse of sin, which is death. The main problem I have with this view of salvation is that it is to small. We are saved from much more than the ultimate effect of sin. We are saved from sin itself. We are saved from the power that sin has over us. As Paul puts it...

For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. (Rom. 8:2 ESV)
​

The "law of sin and death" is the law that says we have to sin. It is the power that sin has over us before Christ frees us from it. Salvation means being freed from this power.

I actually do believe that once a person RECEIVES salvation, they have it, and will not lose it.

I disagree with this statement, but I won't go into detail about that here. Searching the site for the term "OSAS" (Once Saved Always Saved) returns 116 threads. I doubt that I can actually add anything new to the discussion.

My contention is that salvation isn't received when one decides to BECOME a christian, but rather at the end of one's "christian race." What say the forum?

The New Testament uses the word "saved" in past, present and future tenses.

Past:

For by grace you have been saved through faith (Eph. 2:8 ESV)
For in this hope we were saved. (Rom. 8:24)
​

Present:

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (I Cor. 1:18 ESV)
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you (I Cor. 15:1-2 ESV)
​

Future:

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (Rom. 5:9 KJV)
​

I have been saved from the power of sin.
I am being saved from the effects of sin on my life.
I will be saved from all the results of sin when Jesus returns.

The TOG
​

 

[Guest]

But just so I am 100% clear, I do not believe that ANYONE living is among the saved YET.

I disagree

Where's your faith ToT.

 

[John 8:32]

But just so I am 100% clear, I do not believe that ANYONE living is among the saved YET.

I disagree

Where's your faith ToT.

Actually, T.o.T. is correct here...

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Notice the future tense here?

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

And this occurs when? At the last trump at the return of Christ...

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

When?

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=88954]John 8:32[/MENTION] No, he is wrong. We are saved when we accept Christ into our hearts.

 

[John 8:32]

[MENTION=88954]John 8:32[/MENTION] No, he is wrong. We are saved when we accept Christ into our hearts.

Well that one liner refutes all the scripture I posted.

 

[Guest]

@John 8:32 No, he is wrong. We are saved when we accept Christ into our hearts.

Well that one liner refutes all the scripture I posted.

What scripture are you referring too. You mentioned a lot. You must be born again in this lifetime. Once you are born again in this lifetime, you are saved for eternity.

 

[TOG]

But just so I am 100% clear, I do not believe that ANYONE living is among the saved YET.

I disagree

Where's your faith ToT.

Actually, T.o.T. is correct here...

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Notice the future tense here?

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

And this occurs when? At the last trump at the return of Christ...

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

When?

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

None of those verses actually address the issue of salvation. They are about the resurrection of the dead. To be part of the first resurrection (Rev. 20:5), a person has to already be saved. But even if you disagree with that, there is still the fact that Paul says that some already have their names written in the book of life.

Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.(Phil. 4:3 ESV)
​

How can a persons name be recorded in the book of life without that person being saved?

The TOG
​