Salvation: What is it from and when will it be obtained?

[reba]

Isn't salvation a resurrection of the dead?

　
Eph_2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph_2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

 

[John 8:32]

But just so I am 100% clear, I do not believe that ANYONE living is among the saved YET.

I disagree

Where's your faith ToT.

Actually, T.o.T. is correct here...

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Notice the future tense here?

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

And this occurs when? At the last trump at the return of Christ...

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

When?

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

None of those verses actually address the issue of salvation. They are about the resurrection of the dead. To be part of the first resurrection (Rev. 20:5), a person has to already be saved. But even if you disagree with that, there is still the fact that Paul says that some already have their names written in the book of life.

Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.(Phil. 4:3 ESV)
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How can a persons name be recorded in the book of life without that person being saved?

The TOG
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Salvation is what? The gift of eternal life...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

When do we receive the gift of life?

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Having your name written in the Book of Life and receiving salvation are two different occurrences...

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

When, we already saw that we are raised up at the last day. What happens to those not written in the Book of Life?

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

If your name is not written in the book of life, you are cast into the Lake of Fire. Now when does that occur?

First the Millenium, then after the Millenium the GWTJ, then finally the resurrection to death (Rom 6:23).

1) The first resurrection to life of those in Christ occurs at His coming (I Cor 15:22-23)
2) The second resurrection the GWTJ at the end of the Millenium. (Rev 20:11-12)
3) The third resurrection, the resurrection to eternal death - the Lake of Fire. (Rev 20:13-15)

 

[John 8:32]

@John 8:32 No, he is wrong. We are saved when we accept Christ into our hearts.

Well that one liner refutes all the scripture I posted.

What scripture are you referring too. You mentioned a lot. You must be born again in this lifetime. Once you are born again in this lifetime, you are saved for eternity.

post #56 all of the scriptures I posted.

 

[TOG]

When do we receive the gift of life?

Imagine that a man is drowning. For identification, let's cale him Dave. There is a man on shore. We'll call him Steve. The following series of events takes place.

1. Dave cries out to Steve for help.
2. Steve throws Dave a life saver.
3. Dave grabs on to the life saver and holds on tight.
4. Steve pulls Dave toward shore.
5. Steve helps Dave walk the last few yards to dry land.

At what point was Dave saved? Was it when Steve threw him the life saver? When he grabbed the life saver? Was ut when Steve started pulling him toward shore? Or wasn't it until he was safely on dry land?


You could argue that he wasn't completely saved until he was on dry land, and you'd have a point. But being saved is a process. That process started when Dave cried out for help and Steve threw him the life saver. Of course, if Dave is weak he might lose his grip on the life saver or Steve might not be strong enough to pull him all the way in. In either case, Dave would drown.



Likewise, it could be argued that we are not completely saved until we are on "dry land" after the resurrection of the dead. But our salvation is also a process, and that process starts when we cry out to Jesus for help and confess him as our savior. Of course, we might not be strong enough and might "lose our grip". But we know that Jesus is strong enough to pull us all the way in. That's why we can confidently say that we are saved already.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Where's your faith ToT.

It's in my understanding of the biblical writings and based on that I am persuaded that salvation is something that is not received on this side of life.

 

[reba]

Where's your faith ToT.

It's in my understanding of the biblical writings and based on that I am persuaded that salvation is something that is not received on this side of life.

Faith in your self could be at the core of your lack of faith in Christ

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

We are saved from much more than the ultimate effect of sin. We are saved from sin itself. We are saved from the power that sin has over us.

The wages of sin is death according to the scriptures and Jesus overcame death making the gift of eternal life available to all those that follow him. As long as we live in a world of sin and death, sin will exhibit power over us in that it will continually affect our lives. If I understand correctly, it appears that you say salvation gives us the power to resist sin. My contention to that is that man was created with the power to resist sin and it is only because of that innate ability that God can justly punish us for sinning in the first place.

The New Testament uses the word "saved" in past, present and future tenses. Past: For by grace you have been saved through faith (Eph. 2:8 ESV) For in this hope we were saved. (Rom. 8:24)

Does it really? Let's look at the context of the Romans verse you mentioned. From verse 22-24a it reads:
22 We know that all creation has been groaning and in birth pains until now. 23 And it isn't alone, since even we who have received the first fruitage of [God's] Breath groan within ourselves as we await the adoption and the [payment of] the ransom to free our bodies. 24 Yes, this is the hope that's saving us!

As for the Esphesians 2 passage, we'd do well to ask the question of what it was Paul was saying these Ephesian Gentile believers were saved from being. Verses 12-14, 18-19 tells us that his audience was "And at that time, you were without the Anointed One… aliens to the citizens of Israel and strangers to the Sacred Agreements of the promise… you were godless and without hope in this system of things! 13 But now (in the Anointed Jesus), you who were once far away have come to be near by means of the blood of the Anointed One.......18 So by him, the two can access the Father in [the same] spirit. 19 As the result, you are no longer strangers and aliens; you are fellow citizens among the Holy Ones and fellow members of the House of God!"

This context tells the reader that the faith those gentile saints had in Jesus had saved them from being alienated from God and His promises. Because of their faith they had been given a place at the table as verse 7 points out, "so that [God], in ages to come, could show the tremendous richness of His loving care, by His kindness upon us [that He sends us] through the Anointed Jesus."

According to the collectivity of the texts, it would seem that salvation is a process that Jesus began that culminates in eternity for those that have believed and followed Jesus.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Originally Posted by TRUTH over TRADITION
But just so I am 100% clear, I do not believe that ANYONE living is among the saved YET.

Originally Posted by Dave
I disagree
Where's your faith ToT.

Faith in your self could be at the core of your lack of faith in Christ

I should have included the bigger context. My response was related to what the Bible teaches about salvation. My faith is that the Bible teaches that salvation is received on the other side of life. The foundation for my faith in this is of course based on what I read and understand from the scriptures.

 

[TOG]

According to the collectivity of the texts, it would seem that salvation is a process that Jesus began that culminates in eternity for those that have believed and followed Jesus.

Yes. That's what I've been saying. It's a process.

for I know him whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that he is able to guard that which I have committed unto him against that day.(II Tim. 1:12 ASB)
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The process of salvation starts when we confess Jesus as our lord and savior and give our lives to God. If we, like Paul, know whom we have believed and that He is able, then we know that He will finish that process and we can therefor say that we are saved. We don't have to wait till judgment day to find out. We can know now.

 

[reba]

The foundation for my faith in this is of course based on what I read and understand from the scriptures.

Yea ToT it shows, your faith is in your understanding I wish you could/would see and be able to accept our faith should be in Christ.... Something about faith as a child...

Said my piece a couple times so on my way lean not to your own understanding... you know all those verses in your head maybe that ol rolling pin could pound them down to your heart

 

[John 8:32]

When do we receive the gift of life?

Imagine that a man is drowning. For identification, let's cale him Dave. There is a man on shore. We'll call him Steve. The following series of events takes place.

1. Dave cries out to Steve for help.
2. Steve throws Dave a life saver.
3. Dave grabs on to the life saver and holds on tight.
4. Steve pulls Dave toward shore.
5. Steve helps Dave walk the last few yards to dry land.

At what point was Dave saved? Was it when Steve threw him the life saver? When he grabbed the life saver? Was ut when Steve started pulling him toward shore? Or wasn't it until he was safely on dry land?


You could argue that he wasn't completely saved until he was on dry land, and you'd have a point. But being saved is a process. That process started when Dave cried out for help and Steve threw him the life saver. Of course, if Dave is weak he might lose his grip on the life saver or Steve might not be strong enough to pull him all the way in. In either case, Dave would drown.



Likewise, it could be argued that we are not completely saved until we are on "dry land" after the resurrection of the dead. But our salvation is also a process, and that process starts when we cry out to Jesus for help and confess him as our savior. Of course, we might not be strong enough and might "lose our grip". But we know that Jesus is strong enough to pull us all the way in. That's why we can confidently say that we are saved already.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

When is the gift of eternal life given?

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Your scenario is very well thought out and graphic, but unfortunately is not accurate. Dave has not died, he is not asleep and he is not in the ground. The saints are dead, asleep and in the ground. They are made alive again at the resurrection. That is when they are saved from death...

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The only exception is that of those who are alive at the return of Christ and they are changed at His coming...

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

Notice when? AT HIS COMING. That is when salvation from death is given.

 

[TOG]

When is the gift of eternal life given?

That's kinda the question I just asked.

Your scenario is very well thought out and graphic, but unfortunately is not accurate.

No analogy is perfect, but mine isn't nearly as inaccurate as you say. My point is that being saved is not a one time event. It's a process. That process starts when we cry out to Jesus for help and ends at his second coming. Just as the man in the story could cry out "I'm saved!" as soon as he grabbed the life saver, we can say that we're saved as soon as we give our lives to Jesus, even though the process isn't complet yet. That's because, unlike in the story where anything can happen, we know that God will finish what He started.

The TOG
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