Salvation without Baptism ?

[Jim Parker]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Why would anyone get upset because of baptism?

You tell me. You're the one getting upset because I pointed out that baptism was a command of the Lord.

The good thing is now that you realize baptism isn't a requirement for salvation...you can calm down.

Oh, I am quite calm. But I am concerned for the salvation of good believers who are encouraged to neglect good works by the false teaching that faith without works can save anyone.

Obedience to Jesus IS a requirement for salvation.
Heb 3:18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
Heb 5:8-9 Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered; and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

And Jesus commanded that all disciples be baptized.

I don't understand why believers have a problem with obedience unless it is the relentless preaching of false teachers of "cheap grace" that good works have nothing to do with salvation.

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Cygnus]

You tell me. You're the one getting upset because I pointed out that baptism was a command of the Lord.

Tell me Jim, why would I get upset about that?

Oh, I am quite calm. But I am concerned for the salvation of good believers who are encouraged to neglect good works by the false teaching that faith without works can save anyone.

Why would a christian neglect good works? That makes no sense to me. Yet you claim it is encouraged....Why would a christian encourage another christian to not do good works? You're post totally bewilders me...where do you get this stuff from?

The by-product of faith is good works. Good works demonstrate your faith. Good works are performed for the glory of God. Not to save your butt.

 

[Jim Parker]

Tell me Jim, why would I get upset about that?

How would I possible know?
It's YOUR upset, not mine.
I'm not the one resisting the fact that Jesus gave us commands which believers are to obey.

Why would a christian neglect good works? That makes no sense to me. Yet you claim it is encouraged....Why would a christian encourage another christian to not do good works? You're post totally bewilders me...where do you get this stuff from?

From YOU who insists that obedience to Jesus concerning baptism is not required for salvation and want's to argue about it.
If you're bewildered as to where I "get this stuff" just go back and read your own posts.

The by-product of faith is good works. Good works demonstrate your faith. Good works are performed for the glory of God. Not to save your butt.

Are you saying that they are automatic?
Are you saying that the believer doesn't have to make a decision to do good works, they will just "happen" because he believes?

 

[Cygnus]

Heb 3:18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?

Read it again Jim....this time include the entire scripture...
18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
It is UNBELIEF that kept them out....not what they did or didn't do.

Heb 5:8-9 Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered; and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

Obedience is no cause of their salvation...Christ himself is the alone author of that. If you're a Christian obediance to Christ is what you strive to do....if your not a christian then you could care less about obeying Jesus.

 

[Cygnus]

How would I possible know?
It's YOUR upset, not mine.
I'm not the one resisting the fact that Jesus gave us commands which believers are to obey.

Where have I resisted that Jim? You keep posting those sorts of lies about me and I'll click on the report button.

From YOU who insists that obedience to Jesus concerning baptism is not required for salvation and want's to argue about it.
If you're bewildered as to where I "get this stuff" just go back and read your own posts.

You've been warned Jim...stop the spin.

Are you saying that they are automatic?
Are you saying that the believer doesn't have to make a decision to do good works, they will just "happen" because he believes?

For the most part yes. It's part of being a new creation.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come!

 

[Jim Parker]

It is UNBELIEF that kept them out....not what they did or didn't do.

The evidence of their unbelief is their failure to obey.
The same applies to alleged Christians; if they fail to obey, it is evidence of their unbelief.

Obedience is no cause of their salvation...Christ himself is the alone author of that.

I never said or suggested that obedience was a "cause" of anyone's salvation.
Disobedience through neglect or refusal is clear evidence that one is NOT saved.

If you're a Christian obedience to Christ is what you strive to do....

And that is the core of what I have been saying.

Jesus commanded that all disciples be baptized. Failure to obey that command through neglect or refusal, (ie: not "striving to obey") when there is nothing to prevent baptism, is clear evidence of unbelief as is the case for any of Jesus' commands.

It is not that baptism saves anyone or that good works save anyone but, that no one will be saved who, by neglect or refusal, does not "strive to" obey Jesus' commands.

 

[Jim Parker]

Where have I resisted that Jim? You keep posting those sorts of lies about me and I'll click on the report button.

I have spoken no lie.
You are resisting with this last post. You want to fight with me because I said that Jesus commanded that we be baptized and that we need to obey Jesus' commands.
Go back and read you posts.

You've been warned Jim...stop the spin.

2

In response to: "Are you saying that they are automatic?
Are you saying that the believer doesn't have to make a decision to do good works, they will just "happen" because he believes?"

For the most part yes. It's part of being a new creation.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come!

That view is nonsense unless you also want to state that, since obedience is automatic, Jesus and Paul and Peter and John were all just wasting their time telling the church to obey Jesus commands and fight against temptations and the lusts of the flesh to do evil.

"Cheap Grace" is the order of the day. It fills seats and collection plates. "Don't worry about those commandments of Jesus; you'll do that stuff automatically!" "Just believe, show up on Sunday and tithe and you'll be saved."

2Ti 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

 

[Cygnus]

The evidence of their unbelief is their failure to obey.
The same applies to alleged Christians; if they fail to obey, it is evidence of their unbelief.

I never claimed otherwise.

I never said or suggested that obedience was a "cause" of anyone's salvation.
Disobedience through neglect or refusal is clear evidence that one is NOT saved.

I kinda think you did....but I'm not going to argue that point with you.
Disobedience through neglect or refusal is clear evidence that one MAY NOT saved.

Jesus commanded that all disciples be baptized. Failure to obey that command through neglect or refusal, (ie: not "striving to obey") when there is nothing to prevent baptism, is clear evidence of unbelief as is the case for any of Jesus' commands.

It is not that baptism saves anyone or that good works save anyone but, that no one will be saved who, by neglect or refusal, does not "strive to" obey Jesus' commands.

Look at that...you came around. You just said baptism doesn't save you..it's only evidence

 

[Cygnus]

I have spoken no lie.
You are resisting with this last post. You want to fight with me because I said that Jesus commanded that we be baptized and that we need to obey Jesus' commands.
Go back and read you posts.

2

In response to: "Are you saying that they are automatic?
Are you saying that the believer doesn't have to make a decision to do good works, they will just "happen" because he believes?"

That view is nonsense unless you also want to state that, since obedience is automatic, Jesus and Paul and Peter and John were all just wasting their time telling the church to obey Jesus commands and fight against temptations and the lusts of the flesh to do evil.

"Cheap Grace" is the order of the day. It fills seats and collection plates. "Don't worry about those commandments of Jesus; you'll do that stuff automatically!" "Just believe, show up on Sunday and tithe and you'll be saved."

2Ti 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

Judging from your hostile response.....the point flew right over your head.
Are you now telling me a believer isn't a new creation?
Sure, the walk will be hard at times....but the desire should be automatic.

Now, if you charge me with cheap grace theology again....you will be reported. Got it?

 

[Jim Parker]

Look at that...you came around. You just said baptism doesn't save you..it's only evidence

I never said that baptism DID save anyone.
I have consistently said that Jesus commanded that we be baptized and that, if Jesus is someone's Lord, then he will obey his Lord and be baptized.

 

[Jim Parker]

Judging from your hostile response

There was no hostility in my response.
That was you imagination.

Are you now telling me a believer isn't a new creation?

I never suggested anything of the sort.

Sure, the walk will be hard at times....but the desire should be automatic.

Then you have changed you opinion from the actions being automatic to the desire to do the acts being automatic.
(Previously in response to my question: "Are you saying that they are automatic?
Are you saying that the believer doesn't have to make a decision to do good works, they will just "happen" because he believes? ", you said: "For the most part yes. It's part of being a new creation." (Your post #65) )

I agree that the desire is part of being a "new creature" in Christ; the desire becomes automatic.

But it takes more than just desire; we must act upon that desire and, when we choose to act upon it, we will find the "flesh" fighting against that desire. ("If I send $100 to the food bank to feed hungry people, I might not have enough money for an emergency that could possible come up....)

Rom 7:21-23 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

 

[Cygnus]

I never said that baptism DID save anyone.
I have consistently said that Jesus commanded that we be baptized and that, if Jesus is someone's Lord, then he will obey his Lord and be baptized.

Earlier you told us if your not baptized..your not saved.

 

[Jim Parker]

Now, if you charge me with cheap grace theology again....you will be reported. Got it?

Where did I charge YOU PERSONALLY with that?

I said: ""Cheap Grace" is the order of the day. It fills seats and collection plates. "Don't worry about those commandments of Jesus; you'll do that stuff automatically!" "Just believe, show up on Sunday and tithe and you'll be saved."

I did NOT say you were preaching that though it might be that you have been subjected to that false gospel. I was.

So, rather than threatening me, how about you just pay attention to what is actually being said rather than what you imagine is being said and then respond to that? I highly recommend that course of action as conducive to positive results.

 

[Cygnus]

Then you have changed you opinion

No, I haven't changed my opinion. I just pointed out that you...missed the point I was making. Now that you may have finally gotten it, you challenge what my opinion might have been and claimed i changed?

 

[Jim Parker]

Earlier you told us if your not baptized..your not saved.

That is not what I said.
I said that if you neglect or refuse to obey Jesus' command to be baptized then you are not saved.
If you do not obey Jesus then you are not saved whether the disobedience has to do with baptism of loving your enemy.
If you refuse or neglect to do what Jesus commands the He is not your Lord. Luk 6:46

 

[Cygnus]

Where did I charge YOU PERSONALLY with that?

I said: ""Cheap Grace" is the order of the day. It fills seats and collection plates. "Don't worry about those commandments of Jesus; you'll do that stuff automatically!" "Just believe, show up on Sunday and tithe and you'll be saved."

I did NOT say you were preaching that though it might be that you have been subjected to that false gospel. I was.

So, rather than threatening me, how about you just pay attention to what is actually being said rather than what you imagine is being said and then respond to that? I highly recommend that course of action as conducive to positive results.

You posted that in response to what I have been saying...and you called it cheap grace in your post.....you even used the word "automatically" in an attempt to mock what I said.

 

[Jim Parker]

No, I haven't changed my opinion. I just pointed out that you...missed the point I was making. Now that you may have finally gotten it, you challenge what my opinion might have been and claimed i changed?

I posted YOUR words.
If YOUR WORDS do not reflect what you meant then I cannot be held responsible for not understanding what you did not say.

 

[Jim Parker]

You posted that in response to what I have been saying...and you called it cheap grace in your post.....you even used the word "automatically" in an attempt to mock what I said.

I was not mocking anyone.
That is you imagination again.
That is the kind of preaching I heard for years and which still goes on unabated.

 

[Cygnus]

That is not what I said.
I said that if you neglect or refuse to obey Jesus' command to be baptized then you are not saved.
If you do not obey Jesus then you are not saved whether the disobedience has to do with baptism of loving your enemy.
If you refuse or neglect to do what Jesus commands the He is not your Lord. Luk 6:46

Jesus was asked: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments," (Matt 22:36-40)

...how often have you failed in that commandment? According to your own theology....you're not saved Jim.

 

[Kidron]

Salvation is God saving you by accepting your FAITH to be counted as RIGHTEOUSNESS with the Blood of Jesus as the means that achieves this FOR YOU.

"Water" plays no part in the redemption of a Soul, and this is why every time someone is baptized in the NT, it always follows their "belief". (faith).