Salvation/Works Question...

[Alabaster]

...Or, put another way, "accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior" is a WORK, right? According to most Protestant traditions to DO it is NECESSARY for salvation, right?

Believing in Jesus Christ does not constitute a work.

 

[dadof10]

Believing in Jesus Christ does not constitute a work.

I agree. "Works" to Paul are "works of the Law", which put God in obligation to man. Faith is not a "work", neither is feeding the poor, praying, baptism, devotions, etc. These things (and others) are necessary for salvation. All done in faith, of course.

 

[WIP]

With the exception of baptism, are the things you listed "necessary" for salvation or a result of?

 

[francisdesales]

With the exception of baptism, are the things you listed "necessary" for salvation or a result of?

Doesn't James make it clear what sort of faith one must have? If your faith isn't working, it isn't saving... Thus, the list is 'necessary'.

Regards

 

[Asyncritus]

I've always wondered why whenever people mention work, they automatically assume something is earned. I've also noticed that they always post Ephesians 2:8-9, but never ever post verse 10.

What if we put the emphasis on verse 10? How would that change our view of work?

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Thoughts?

I liken it to someone who has made a guitar or some musical instrument.

It is 'created' a guitar, and can be nothing else.

But unless it produces some music, it is useless, except for burning!

Same here. We are 'created' unto 'good works'. The good works are the consequence of salvation, not its cause.

 

[Asyncritus]

Believing in Jesus Christ does not constitute a work.

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[dadof10]

With the exception of baptism, are the things you listed "necessary" for salvation or a result of?

Obedience to God is necessary. If we do not obey, we are not saved. To "accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savor" is an action that is required for salvation in obedience to God's plan. How is this different from saying that daily prayer or charitable giving is an action that is required for salvation?

The actions cannot be meritorious without faith. All things, including faith and baptism are gifts from God, which is why the Church teaches we are justified/saved by Grace alone.

 

[dadof10]

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The "work of God" in John has a different meaning than the "works of the Law" in Paul's letters. I think the latter is what Alabaster meant. Belief in Jesus is not an obligatory work, although it IS definitely a work of God, as are other good deeds done in faith.

 

[Drew]

If salvation is not by works,.....

But final salvation is indeed based on "works":

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.†7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I suggest that there is a growing movement which recognizes that when Paul denies "salvation by works", he is actually saying something much more focused - that salvation is not limited to those who do the "works" of the Law of Moses, that is to say, Jews.

The arguments for this perspective are indeed compelling.

....and we can do nothing to earn our way into God's family, how am I supposed to deal with verses that demand all people to repent and obey Christ's commandments? If we obeyed and repented, we would have something to boast about and we would've earned, or worked our way up the spiritual ladder to God (which is impossible).

While the New Testament does indeed affirm that final salvation is based on "deeds", this does not necessarily mean that we are therefore in a position to "boast". I suggest that the New Testament also teaches that it is only through the activity of the Holy Spirit - given to the believer based on faith alone - that salvific good deeds can be performed.

 

[Elijah674]

But final salvation is indeed based on "works":

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.†7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I suggest that there is a growing movement which recognizes that when Paul denies "salvation by works", he is actually saying something much more focused - that salvation is not limited to those who do the "works" of the Law of Moses, that is to say, Jews.

The arguments for this perspective are indeed compelling.


While the New Testament does indeed affirm that final salvation is based on "deeds", this does not necessarily mean that we are therefore in a position to "boast". I suggest that the New Testament also teaches that it is only through the activity of the Holy Spirit - given to the believer based on faith alone - that salvific good deeds can be performed.

Still kind of 'soft' in wording. How about 'salvific required good works because of Faithful Recreated Agape Love'?
--Elijah

 

[WIP]

Obedience to God is necessary. If we do not obey, we are not saved.

I look at it this way. I strive for obediance not to be saved but because I am. My obediance is a reaction to the saving grace from God. Salvation doesn't come by works. Works comes by salvation...gladly and with desire.

 

[Drew]

I look at it this way. I strive for obediance not to be saved but because I am. My obediance is a reaction to the saving grace from God. Salvation doesn't come by works. Works comes by salvation...gladly and with desire.

I politely request that you try to make a scriptural case that final salvation is not contingent on "good works". I am certain you will not succeed.

And the reason is this - every text (such as Eph 2:8-9) that denies salvation by "works" is really an assertion that salvation is not limited to Jews - the ones who do the works of the Law of Moses. The reformers got a lot of things right, but they were a little off on the "works" issue.

The New Testament is quite clear - final salvation is indeed contingent upon the good deeds that one has performed.

 

[Elijah674]

I look at it this way. I strive for obediance not to be saved but because I am. My obediance is a reaction to the saving grace from God. Salvation doesn't come by works. Works comes by salvation...gladly and with desire.

Extra short but complete! Your DESIRE is Motivated by Love.

--Elijah

 

[Alabaster]

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Context:

John 6:28-29 NLT
They replied, “We want to perform God’s works, too. What should we do?†Jesus told them, “This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.â€

 

[dadof10]

I look at it this way. I strive for obediance not to be saved but because I am. My obediance is a reaction to the saving grace from God. Salvation doesn't come by works. Works comes by salvation...gladly and with desire.

I have a couple of questions:

What do you mean when you say "works" above?

Does your obedience (or lack thereof) affect your salvation? In other words, if you fail to obey, can your "salvation" be lost?

 

[dadof10]

I suggest that the New Testament also teaches that it is only through the activity of the Holy Spirit - given to the believer based on faith alone - that salvific good deeds can be performed.

Could you clarify this? It seems as if your saying that Grace is given based on faith, and that our acquiring faith is somehow outside of Grace. That faith is acquired by some other means besides pure Grace.

I don't think that's what you mean, just making sure.

 

[WIP]

Jesus demonstrated the greatest love of all by laying down His life for a friend....me. I am forever and eternally grateful that He gave me life. My desire now is to please Him....be like Him. When I do good works it is because of Him and to His glory, not mine.

 

[dadof10]

Jesus demonstrated the greatest love of all by laying down His life for a friend....me. I am forever and eternally grateful that He gave me life. My desire now is to please Him....be like Him. When I do good works it is because of Him and to His glory, not mine.

Amen! The questions above still remain unanswered, though.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Salvation/Works answer -

If salvation is not by works, and we can do nothing to earn our way into God's family, how am I supposed to deal with verses that demand all people to repent and obey Christ's commandments?

Understand 'em in context.

If we obeyed and repented, we would have something to boast about and we would've earned, or worked our way up the spiritual ladder to God (which is impossible).

Partially true - Repenting isn't a "Work" it's the normal response (made in your "Free will") when God in HIS sovereignty CONVICTS you of your sin and SHOWS YOU what your true hopeless state state before Him is.

And before you Become a Christian - you're NOT GOING TO "obey Christ's Commandments" since you're still the "Slave" to sin. And your "Good works in HIS sight are nothing but "filthy Rags".

Can we therefore conclude that it is impossible to do those things which Chist commands and demands without his will and him first drawing us? (John 6:44)

Of course, the Bible SAYS IT, and that settles it.

"This makes our free will in salvation impossible right?"

Partially true. Without the conviction of SIN by the Holy Spirit - you have nothing TO "repent" of. You can "Seek" the Lord, but until HE draws you, there's nothing you can do. But when He DOES "Draw you", you CAN "walk away" if you CHOOSE to.

You CAN'T just "decide to be a Christian" intellectually, and rip off a "Sinner's prayer" and consider the JOB DONE.

There has to be a vital FAITH involved - which YOU can't produce internally - It's Gods GIFT.

 

[WIP]

Amen! The questions above still remain unanswered, though.

I'm afraid I don't know how to explain it more clearly. I don't do works for the sake of salvation. I do works because I have been saved.

I love my wife and I do things for her all the time. I don't do them because I want her to love me back. I do them because she loves me and I want to please her. Does that make sense?