Salvation/Works Question...

[Drew]

Could you clarify this? It seems as if your saying that Grace is given based on faith, and that our acquiring faith is somehow outside of Grace. That faith is acquired by some other means besides pure Grace.

I don't think that's what you mean, just making sure.

What I am asserting is this:

1. In places like Romans 2, 2 Corinthians 5, and elsewhere, it is clear that there will be a future judgement, at which all will appear, and where eternal life will be granted based on the "good deeds" that our lives manifest. You and I are both aware that many protestant evangelicals do not believe this, but I suggest they are misreading scripture - watch the way these people try to dismiss Romans 2:6-13 as "hypothetical;

2. Having said this, it is also clear that "deeds" done by the power of moral self-effort are not salvific. Instead, it is only through the "free grace" gift of the Holy Spirit, given on the basis of faith alone, that we are enabled to do the good works that will ultimately save us.

I hope this clarifies my position. If not, please ask again.

 

[Drew]

I'm afraid I don't know how to explain it more clearly. I don't do works for the sake of salvation. I do works because I have been saved.

Note this text from Romans 2:

But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

How do you take this text seriously and still hold to the position that salvation is not contingent on "doing good"?

 

[Alabaster]

Note this text from Romans 2:

But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

How do you take this text seriously and still hold to the position that salvation is not contingent on "doing good"?

Salvation is only contingent on our faith by God's grace in the cleansing power of Jesus' BLOOD.

 

[francisdesales]

Salvation is only contingent on our faith by God's grace in the cleansing power of Jesus' BLOOD.

I'm afraid that going to heaven is based upon obeying the Will of the Father, not just in a mental belief in what Jesus did. For example:

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.

Cast not away therefore your boldness, which hath great recompense of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, having done the will of God, ye may receive the promise.

Heb 10:26-27, 35-36


There are numerous such citations in Scriptures. Living in sin causes one to lose the promise. Thus, clearly, eternal life is contingent upon doing the will of the Father.


Regards

 

[Alabaster]

I'm afraid that going to heaven is based upon obeying the Will of the Father, not just in a mental belief in what Jesus did. For example:

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.

Cast not away therefore your boldness, which hath great recompense of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, having done the will of God, ye may receive the promise.

Heb 10:26-27, 35-36

There are numerous such citations in Scriptures. Living in sin causes one to lose the promise.

Regards

Giving Jesus Christ mental assent guarantees that you are trying to achieve salvation by works.

Receiving Jesus by faith, is a life changing event in a life, where a person is REGENERATED, made new by God by the cleansing power of the blood of Jesus, and His coming to live inside our spirit, enlivening what was once DEAD.

A born again believer who experiences that reconciliation doesn't return to his old ways of consistent sinning.

 

[Drew]

Salvation is only contingent on our faith by God's grace in the cleansing power of Jesus' BLOOD.

Please address the question about the Romans 2 text and do not simply "declare" a position.

 

[francisdesales]

Giving Jesus Christ mental assent guarantees that you are trying to achieve salvation by works.

You must be joking, right? Ever read James 2? The devil makes lots of "mental assents" that Jesus is Lord...

I just don't see all of Jesus' teachings pointing to "mental assents". I see actions in doing the Will of the Father.

Receiving Jesus by faith, is a life changing event in a life, where a person is REGENERATED, made new by God by the cleansing power of the blood of Jesus, and His coming to live inside our spirit, enlivening what was once DEAD.

It can be a life changing event, but it doesn't follow that it will REMAIN a life changing event. That is why the citation from Hebrews tells us to "not cast away your boldness" and to "have need of patience". That is an ONGOING act of faith. Faith is not a one-moment in time event. It MUST be ongoing. Otherwise, one falls away into willful sin.

A born again believer who experiences that reconciliation doesn't return to his old ways of consistent sinning.

How can you state that when I just cited a verse that says otherwise???

It says "IF WE...", speaking to saved, born again believers...

Regards

 

[Elijah674]

Just one question. What would become of satan false doctrines if he tossed out his Gen. 3:15 DESIRED WORKERS POSTINGS, + ALL ELSE of his false stuff?

2 Peter 2:
[17] These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

(compare Luke 12:47-48 & Obadiah 1:16 + the Rev. 17:5 ones in LARGE numbers! mom & daughters!)

[18] For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

(one/time saved! Past/tense! See Heb. 6:6)

[19] While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

(here we see many a fold or church 's teaching! They promise LIBERTY while living in acknowledged documented sin! We are sinners, is there claim. And we ARE SAVED 'IN' SIN! And when ones does a check of the message boards?? These ones are WORKING all over the place!)

[20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome,the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. Obad. 1:16!!

(these ones are the ones who live in sin. (FALSE DOCTRINES!) They are past/tense as far as ever returning to Christ as a Church Body. And this is just one of their many false doctrines! They have rejected the Holy Spirit's Leading from sin, for the very last time as a Church. Rom. 8:14. They have been teaching the devil's doctrines for well past any 120 years! (Gen. 6:3) They are OVERCOME! James 1:15, 1 John 5:16's last part of the verse, as a church body. The only way now to be saved as a yoked member, IS TO LEAVE the yoked membership!! Rev. 18:4)

[21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

(A couple of thoughts are seen here. These ones were at one time Born Again believers who made a promising start, but balked & stymied at the Leading of the Holy Ghost as they were given new Truths by Christ's TOTAL Word. See Hosea 4:6, 2 Tim. 3:16-17 & Matt. 4:4's total Everlasting Gospel & the Godheads ETERNAL Covenant! Rev. 14:6 & Heb. 13:20.

And these ones are the most accountable of all mankind. These will suffer hell/fire in the longest executional stage of judgement! Christ's Words again of Luke 12:47-48 & Matt. 10:15 for how much more sorrowful the punishment than that of even Sodom and Gomorrah. And Christ states that He would rather these ones to be 'cold' than lukewarm. Rev. 3:16-17 The reason being, is that they are blind to their spiritual condition and the Holy Spirit can move the cold ones before these ones. (read some postings here!)

[22] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

These ones have returned into being spiritual brain dead once again, and that is quite a large crop! All of the ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH ONES, and ALL OF THE SAME CLASS of 'BROADWAY' professed Christians!

---Elijah

 

[francisdesales]

Just one question. What would become of satan false doctrines if he tossed out his Gen. 3:15 DESIRED WORKERS POSTINGS, + ALL ELSE of his false stuff?

2 Peter 2:
[17] These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

(compare Luke 12:47-48 & Obadiah 1:16 + the Rev. 17:5 ones in LARGE numbers! mom & daughters!)

[18] For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

(one/time saved! Past/tense! See Heb. 6:6)

[19] While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

(here we see many a fold or church 's teaching! They promise LIBERTY while living in acknowledged documented sin! We are sinners, is there claim. And we ARE SAVED 'IN' SIN! And when ones does a check of the message boards?? These ones are WORKING all over the place!)

[20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome,the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. Obad. 1:16!!

(these ones are the ones who live in sin. (FALSE DOCTRINES!) They are past/tense as far as ever returning to Christ as a Church Body. And this is just one of their many false doctrines! They have rejected the Holy Spirit's Leading from sin, for the very last time as a Church. Rom. 8:14. They have been teaching the devil's doctrines for well past any 120 years! (Gen. 6:3) They are OVERCOME! James 1:15, 1 John 5:16's last part of the verse, as a church body. The only way now to be saved as a yoked member, IS TO LEAVE the yoked membership!! Rev. 18:4)

[21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

(A couple of thoughts are seen here. These ones were at one time Born Again believers who made a promising start, but balked & stymied at the Leading of the Holy Ghost as they were given new Truths by Christ's TOTAL Word. See Hosea 4:6, 2 Tim. 3:16-17 & Matt. 4:4's total Everlasting Gospel & the Godheads ETERNAL Covenant! Rev. 14:6 & Heb. 13:20.

And these ones are the most accountable of all mankind. These will suffer hell/fire in the longest executional stage of judgement! Christ's Words again of Luke 12:47-48 & Matt. 10:15 for how much more sorrowful the punishment than that of even Sodom and Gomorrah. And Christ states that He would rather these ones to be 'cold' thanlukewarm. Rev. 3:16-17 The reason being, is that they are blind to their spiritual condition and the Holy Spirit can move the cold ones before these ones. (read some postings here!)

[22] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

These ones have returned into being spiritual brain dead once again, and that is quite a large crop! All of the ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH ONES, and ALL OF THE SAME CLASS of 'BROADWAY' professed Christians!

---Elijah

I am not sure what you are getting at, Elijah, but I agree that 2 Peter 2 clearly speaks of a saved Christian who has fallen away and return to their former lives of sin - which is WORSE than if they had NEVER been saved to begin with...

Regards

 

[Alabaster]

[/B]

You must be joking, right? Ever read James 2? The devil makes lots of "mental assents" that Jesus is Lord...

Which is why when we do it, it means nothing. I wouldn't joke about something so deadly serious...we have far too many people running around thinking they are Christians when they have had no regeneration, having only given Jesus a nod mentally.

It can be a life changing event, but it doesn't follow that it will REMAIN a life changing event.

Salvation is a life-changing event.

How can you state that when I just cited a verse that says otherwise???

It says "IF WE...", speaking to saved, born again believers...

Regards

'If we' is correct. We need to take stock of ourselves, knowing we have been bought with a price, and we are no longer our own, when temptations arise.

 

[Alabaster]

Please address the question about the Romans 2 text and do not simply "declare" a position.

The Romans 2 verses are simply telling us that those who are Christ's will be judged according to their works--that is how we will have our rewards determined--at the Bema Seat of Christ.

We are not judged by any other criteria--not sin, but what our motivation was in how we lived and worked for the Lord.

 

[Scotth1960]

If salvation is not by works, and we can do nothing to earn our way into God's family, how am I supposed to deal with verses that demand all people to repent and obey Christ's commandments? If we obeyed and repented, we would have something to boast about and we would've earned, or worked our way up the spiritual ladder to God (which is impossible).

Can we therefore conclude that it is impossible to do those things which Chist commands and demands without his will and him first drawing us? (John 6:44) This makes our free will in salvation impossible right?

Dear cosmicutopia, To cut through the useless, meaningless faith versus works debate, or faith alone debate, merely know that IT IS GOD WHO SAVES the repentant sinner who comes to Christ in faith. Of course he comes in "faith which worketh through love" (GALATIANS), so "faith without works is dead" (JAMES) and a man is justified by works, and NOT BY FAITH ALONE (James 2:24). INITIALLY, WE COME BY FAITH TO CHRIST. LATER, AFTER WE ARE BAPTIZED, GOOD WORKS WILL COME. In Erie PA SCOTTH1960 Scott R. Harrington

 

[Drew]

The Romans 2 verses are simply telling us that those who are Christ's will be judged according to their works--that is how we will have our rewards determined--at the Bema Seat of Christ.

No!!! Please - we are not fools! Again, you simply ignore the text - as you did in the discussion of Romans 11.

Please Alabaster - the readers are not idiots. The text clearly connects persistence in doing good to the receipt of eternal life, not "rewards". Please take Paul seriously and do not morph what he writes into something else. Here is the text again - note the clear reference to eternal life.

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Not "rewards" - eternal life.

 

[Alabaster]

No!!! Please - we are not fools! Again, you simply ignore the text - as you did in the discussion of Romans 11.

Please Alabaster - the readers are not idiots. The text clearly connects persistence in doing good to the receipt of eternal life, not "rewards". Please take Paul seriously and do not morph what he writes into something else. Here is the text again - note the clear reference to eternal life.

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Not "rewards" - eternal life.

I am not an idiot, either. What do you mean, "No!!!"?? Surely you are not arguing that doing good gets anyone into the Kingdom...are you?

Romans 2:5-8 NLT
5 But because you are stubborn and refuse to turn from your sin, you are storing up terrible punishment for yourself. For a day of anger is coming, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 He will judge everyone according to what they have done. 7 He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. 8 But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and instead live lives of wickedness.



Once again---only the redeemed will be judged by their righteousness. We are all going to stand before Jesus Christ and our works will be burned up and what remains will be what we receive reward for. Eternal life is our ultimate and common reward!

It is only Christians whose good works are evaluated, and then it is for rewards. Works done to the glory of God are the only ones that will stand. Unbelievers' good works get them nowhere.


1 Corinthians 3:13-15 NLT
13 But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value. 14 If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. 15 But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.

 

[francisdesales]

Which is why when we do it, it means nothing. I wouldn't joke about something so deadly serious...we have far too many people running around thinking they are Christians when they have had no regeneration, having only given Jesus a nod mentally.

I think I misunderstood you. I thought you meant by merely making mental assents, we were saved... My fault.

Salvation is a life-changing event.

And so is falling away...

If we is correct. We need to take stock of ourselves, knowing we have been bought with a price, and we are no longer our own, when temptations arise.

What do you mean, "if we is correct"? I am citing the Scriptures, that is what Paul wrote. Note, "we" is a plural pronoun that includes oneself. There is no guarantee, unless you remain faithful to God.

Apparently, some people have been known to fall to temptations, even the saved ones. Otherwise, Paul wouldn't have felt it necessary to warn of it.

Regards

 

[Drew]

I am not an idiot, either. What do you mean, "No!!!"?? Surely you are not arguing that doing good gets anyone into the Kingdom...are you?

I am only saying what Paul is saying. Here, in Romans 2, eternal life is granted "according to what we have done":

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Now, I would agree that it is only with the presence of the Holy Spirit that are going to "pass" this test.

But it is indeed a "good works" criteria and eternal life is in the balance.

The text is what it is!!!

Romans 2:5-8 NLT
5 But because you are stubborn and refuse to turn from your sin, you are storing up terrible punishment for yourself. For a day of anger is coming, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 He will judge everyone according to what they have done. 7 He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. 8 But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and instead live lives of wickedness.

Once again---only the redeemed will be judged by their righteousness. We are all going to stand before Jesus Christ and our works will be burned up and what remains will be what we receive reward for. Eternal life is our ultimate and common reward!

In all candor, are you actually reading the text? The very text you have posted above says this:

He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good,

It says what it says, Alabaster - eternal life is given to those who do good!!

And how can you possibly suggest that "only the redeemed" will judged by their righteousness. Again, I am shocked at your manifest ignoring of the actual text. Here is part of the same passage - it is clear that there will be non-believers at this judgement:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Clearly this is a judgement at which some will "perish". And the text is otherwise clearly saying that this is a universal judgement - all people will be at it.

It is only Christians whose good works are evaluated, and then it is for rewards.

This is simply not what the text says!! How can we discuss this if you baldly change what the text says. Paul clearly asserts that eternal life is given to those who do good. There may or may not be rewards as well. But the text says what it says!!:

He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good,

I will not continue this discussion if you continue to deny what the text is saying.

I will deal with the 1 Corinthians text later - I suggest you mave misread it.

 

[Alabaster]

I am only saying what Paul is saying. Here, in Romans 2, eternal life is granted "according to what we have done":

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Now, I would agree that it is only with the presence of the Holy Spirit that are going to "pass" this test.

But it is indeed a "good works" criteria and eternal life is in the balance.

The text is what it is!!!

New Christians who die without ever having done a 'good work' such as those who undergo a deathbed conversion, or babies, or the mentally challenged or severely disabled will lose eternal life?

Good works is NEVER the criteria for eternal life. It is the criteria for the particular rewards we receive in eternal life.

In all candor, are you actually reading the text? The very text you have posted above says this:

He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good,

It says what it says, Alabaster - eternal life is given to those who do good!!

Be careful when you read! Think about who is being talked about here.
The text is talking about believers!

And how can you possibly suggest that "only the redeemed" will judged by their righteousness. Again, I am shocked at your manifest ignoring of the actual text. Here is part of the same passage - it is clear that there will be non-believers at this judgement:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Clearly this is a judgement at which some will "perish". And the text is otherwise clearly saying that this is a universal judgement - all people will be at it.

That is not clear. We know from the whole of scripture that there is the Judgment Seat of Christ for all believers where we will be judged by our works. There is also the Judgment of the sinner at the end of all things: The Great White Throne judgment. We will not be standing there. However, there will be millions of living mortals born during the Millennial age who will have to stand before God and have their name searched in the Book of Life.

This is simply not what the text says!! How can we discuss this if you baldly change what the text says. Paul clearly asserts that eternal life is given to those who do good. There may or may not be rewards as well. But the text says what it says!!:

He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good,

I will not continue this discussion if you continue to deny what the text is saying.

I will deal with the 1 Corinthians text later - I suggest you mave misread it.

There are many good people in the world. If they don't know Jesus Christ, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire. You must take the word as a whole. You contradict the Lord.

 

[Drew]

New Christians who die without ever having done a 'good work' such as those who undergo a deathbed conversion, or babies, or the mentally challenged or severely disabled will lose eternal life?

No they won't - the thief on His right was indeed "saved". But Paul means what he says here (and I will keep posting this text until you deal with it):

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

You do believe that Paul wrote inspired scripture, don't you? If I show this to a grade 10 english class (who have no bias), they will all agree: this a statement that God will give eternal life (not something else!!!) to those who, yes, persist in doing good.

I have no doubt that God does not expect the same "performance" from everybody - but the text says what it says!!!

Good works is NEVER the criteria for eternal life. It is the criteria for the particular rewards we receive in eternal life.

You manifestly deny this from Scripture:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Why do you not believe this statement? Why do you effectively change it into:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give rewards, even though eternal life has been procured on other grounds.

 

[Drew]

Good Be careful when you read! Think about who is being talked about here. The text is talking about believers!

The text says what is says, Alabaster. One more time:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I agree that it is only believers who will indeed "persist in doing good". But the text says what is says!!! The "repayment" will be, yes, according to what the person has done!! And Paul is then more explicit. He does not say "to those who have faith, He will give eternal life", He says "to those who persist in doing good, He will give eternal life.

You need to deal with the text.

 

[Alabaster]

No they won't - the thief on His right was indeed "saved". But Paul means what he says here (and I will keep posting this text until you deal with it):

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

You do believe that Paul wrote inspired scripture, don't you? If I show this to a grade 10 english class (who have no bias), they will all agree: this a statement that God will give eternal life (not something else!!!) to those who, yes, persist in doing good.

ONLY BELIEVERS IN JESUS CHRIST---according to the whole of scripture!

I have no doubt that God does not expect the same "performance" from everybody - but the text says what it says!!!

You manifestly deny this from Scripture:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I utterly believe it!

Why do you not believe this statement? Why do you effectively change it into:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give rewards, even though eternal life has been procured on other grounds.

You choose to wear blinders to what all other scripture is saying. There is only ONE WAY to receive eternal life, and it sure isn't good works!!