Salvation/Works Question...

[Alabaster]

The text says what is says, Alabaster. One more time:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I agree that it is only believers who will indeed "persist in doing good". But the text says what is says!!! The "repayment" will be, yes, according to what the person has done!! And Paul is then more explicit. He does not say "to those who have faith, He will give eternal life", He says "to those who persist in doing good, He will give eternal life.

You need to deal with the text.

And you need to discern the truth.

 

[Drew]

That is not clear.

No, it is quite clear - some people at this judgement will get wrath and will perish. In all due respect, please read what the text actually actually says:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism. 12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Do you read the statement about people "getting wrath"? Do you think Christians will get wrath? I don't - therefore non-Christians will be at this judgement.

Do you read the statement about people "perishing"? Do you think Christians will perish? I don't - therefore non-Christians will be at this judgement.

Please - I am only asking you to honour what the text actually says.

 

[Drew]

And you need to discern the truth.

Why are playing this game? You have been caught (again) simply not honouring the text. And this is your answer? That I need to "discern the truth"? How about you trying to use what the text actually says to 'discern truth'?

 

[Alabaster]

Why are playing this game? You have been caught (again) simply not honouring the text.

False. You need to comprehend the spirit of the letter.

And this is your answer? That I need to "discern the truth"? How about you trying to use what the text actually says to 'discern truth'?

What is the truth, to you? That those who earnestly seek to do good will see God? Paul was speaking to believers, warning them about unrepentant sin and hypocrisy, and how God will judge that sin if we remain in it.

We must remain in communion with God and continually live before Him with clean hearts and hands so that when we stand before Jesus, we will not be regretful, but filled with joy.

 

[Elijah674]

I am not sure what you are getting at, Elijah, but I agree that 2 Peter 2 clearly speaks of a saved Christian who has fallen away and return to their former lives of sin - which is WORSE than if they had NEVER been saved to begin with...

Regards

OK: Lets try it this way for ones documentation against OSAS false theology. (as we believe)

1 Sam. 10
[5] After that thou shalt come to the hill of God, where is the garrison of the Philistines: and it shall come to pass, when thou art come thither to the city, that thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a pipe, and a harp, before them; and they shall prophesy:
[6] And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
[7] And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.

[8] And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do.

[9] And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.

And that is ones Born Again start only! Rom. 8:14 is to follow!

And what happened to King Saul later? We see in 1 Sam. 16:14 'But the Spirit of the Lord DEPARTED FROM Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.' And if one read on?? They would find that God never again 'Led' him or communicated with him! See 1 Sam. 28:6 on.. for Saul's sad fate!

--Elijah

 

[Drew]

False. You need to comprehend the spirit of the letter.

Code for: the text does not line up with my beliefs so I will say that the "spirit"
of the letter is something other than what the text says.

So much for scriptural authority.

Alabaster, the "spirit" of the letter is discerned by reading it and taking it seriously. Again, how is the following not a clear statement that eternal life is granted accorded to "good deeds" - "persistence in doing good". The text is what it is!!!:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Your method of "exegesis" appears to involve rewriting the above to say this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give rewards.

 

[Alabaster]

Code for: the text does not line up with my beliefs so I will say that the "spirit"
of the letter is something other than what the text says.

So much for scriptural authority.

Alabaster, the "spirit" of the letter is discerned by reading it and taking it seriously. Again, how is the following not a clear statement that eternal life is granted accorded to "good deeds" - "persistence in doing good". The text is what it is!!!:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Your method of "exegesis" appears to involve rewriting the above to say this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give rewards.

Eternal life is granted to those in Christ and they are rewarded according to their works. That is what Scipture teaches.

You are using these verses to contradict that BASIC and ACCEPTED TRUTH.

Ephesians 2:8-10 NLT
8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

 

[Drew]

What is the truth, to you? That those who earnestly seek to do good will see God? Paul was speaking to believers, warning them about unrepentant sin and hypocrisy, and how God will judge that sin if we remain in it.

There is a grain of truth here, but, again, you ignore the clear import of this statement:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Why do you not accept this statement, Alabaster? Why do you think that the "spirit" of the letter makes this statement mean something other than what it says.

The text is what it is! I will keep pointing this out. A statement that God will give, yes, eternal life - eternal life, Alabaster - to those who persist in, yes, doing good means what it says.

Why do you not accept this Pauline statement?

 

[Drew]

Eternal life is granted to those in Christ and they are rewarded according to their works. That is what Scipture teaches.

You are using these verses to contradict that BASIC and ACCEPTED TRUTH.

Yes I am using these verse to contradict your statement - that's because, as I suspect you know all too well, this statement:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

....directly contradicts your position. As for me, I cannot "wish away" the fact that the above text clearly and unambiguously declares that eternal life is granted to those who persist in doing good.

Wishing hard that Paul had instead written this:

7 To those who have faith, he will give eternal life.

....does not change the fact that Paul wrote what he wrote!!!

And, of course, I have been clear that I believe that is only those who, by faith alone, accept Christ are capable of doing "good deeds" which, according to Paul, will be the basis of their salvation.

You are doing what so many others do - baldly ignore what a text actually says - you keep insisting that we are "rewarded" according to deeds. Well, that may also be true - but the point is this: Here in Romans 2:7, Paul says that eternal life is given based on persistence in doing good.

Why do you, and so many others, simply refuse to accept this?

 

[Alabaster]

There is a grain of truth here, but, again, you ignore the clear import of this statement:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Why do you not accept this statement, Alabaster? Why do you think that the "spirit" of the letter makes this statement mean something other than what it says.

The text is what it is! I will keep pointing this out. A statement that God will give, yes, eternal life - eternal life, Alabaster - to those who persist in, yes, doing good means what it says.

Why do you not accept this Pauline statement?

I do accept it, but it doesn't mean that unbelievers will receive eternal life. Only believers.

 

[Alabaster]

Yes I am using these verse to contradict your statement - that's because, as I suspect you know all too well, this statement:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

....directly contradicts your position. As for me, I cannot "wish away" the fact that the above text clearly and unambiguously declares that eternal life is granted to those who persist in doing good.

Wishing hard that Paul had instead written this:

7 To those who have faith, he will give eternal life.

....does not change the fact that Paul wrote what he wrote!!!

And, of course, I have been clear that I believe that is only those who, by faith alone, accept Christ are capable of doing "good deeds" which, according to Paul, will be the basis of their salvation.

You are doing what so many others do - baldly ignore what a text actually says - you keep insisting that we are "rewarded" according to deeds. Well, that may also be true - but the point is this: Here in Romans 2:7, Paul says that eternal life is given based on persistence in doing good.

Why do you, and so many others, simply refuse to accept this?

I am glad that there are many others who refute what you are saying, because your little magnification of a very tiny scriptural passage is not the GOSPEL.

The gospel in a nutshell is John 3:16 NLT... For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Drew]

I do accept it, but it doesn't mean that unbelievers will receive eternal life. Only believers.

Please read my posts carefully - I never said that unbelievers receive eternal life. In fact, on at least two occasions, I have clearly asserted that it is only believers who are enabled to do the "good deeds" that are salvific as per Romans 2. Again, let the word of God be proclaimed:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

The question before us is this? Do we believe this statement as written, or do we not?

 

[Alabaster]

Please read my posts carefully - I never said that unbelievers receive eternal life. In fact, on at least two occasions, I have clearly asserted that it is only believers who are enabled to do the "good deeds" that are salvific as per Romans 2. Again, let the word of God be proclaimed:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

The question before us is this? Do we believe this statement as written, or do we not?

I have never not believed it. Believers will receive eternal life.

 

[Drew]

I have never not believed it. Believers will receive eternal life.

Indeed. But on what basis will they be given eternal life. Let the word of God be proclaimed:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

 

[Drew]

By the way, Alabaster, what part of Ontario are you from? I am from Ottawa.

 

[Alabaster]

By the way, Alabaster, what part of Ontario are you from? I am from Ottawa.

Don't stalk me...Hamilton.

 

[Drew]

I am glad that there are many others who refute what you are saying, because your little magnification of a very tiny scriptural passage is not the GOSPEL.

Name one poster who has "refuted" what I am saying. And by "refute", I mean to actually deal with what the text says.

The text says what it says!!! This statement of yours sounds very much like a concession that the text indeed does assert what it obviously does - that the basis of eternal life is "what we have done" or "persistence in doing good".

What you call "magnifying a tiny passage" is really taking Paul seriously in everything he says.

Alabaster, is Paul right when he writes this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

The gospel in a nutshell is John 3:16 NLT... For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

1. The word "gospel" is not used in the New Testament to refer to this, but that's another debate.

2. I have never posted anything that is at odds with John 3:16.

 

[Alabaster]

Name one poster who has "refuted" what I am saying. And by "refute", I mean to actually deal with what the text says.

The text says what it says!!! This statement of yours sounds very much like a concession that the text indeed does assert what it obviously does - that the basis of eternal life is "what we have done" or "persistence in doing good".

What you call "magnifying a tiny passage" is really taking Paul seriously in everything he says.

Alabaster, is Paul right when he writes this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Paul is right in all he says. People are wrong when they twist it.

1. The word "gospel" is not used in the New Testament to refer to this, but that's another debate.

2. I have never posted anything that is at odds with John 3:16.

I hope that is true.

 

[Drew]

Paul is right in all he says. People are wrong when they twist it.

Indeed. And the one who "twits" what Paul says is precisely the one who denies the truth of this statement:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Who is the one who says that the above statement from Paul is not correct?

Is it me?

Or is it you?

 

[Alabaster]

Indeed. And the one who "twits" what Paul says is precisely the one who denies the truth of this statement:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Who is the one who says that the above statement from Paul is not correct?

Is it me?

Or is it you?

Not me.