satan; the ruling god of this word.

[agua.]

True but there is a vast difference between roaming the earth and being ruler. Not only was Satan removed as ruler with the death and resurrection of Jesus, Jesus was made King, and is therefore ruler.

Ah ok I see what you mean. I think there's a distinction between the "world" and Jesus' Kingdom. The world as mentioned by Jesus encompasses the evil and unbelieving while Jesus Kingdom is for the righteous only. Jesus is the Ruler of the Kingdom of God but as He said " Mt Kingdom is not of this world".

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world."

At present Jesus protects His subjects on Earth but the world is under control of satan.

1Jn 5:18-19 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. (19) We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.


Jesus will return and remove control of the world from satan and bind him during the Millennium. Tell me Free what do you suggest a ruler does ?

But in Luke 10:18 we see something different: ' And he said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."' (ESV) This is speaking of Satan's expulsion from heaven, which had happened sometime in the past.

According to Revelations 12 it seems this event is future possibly during the tribulation period.

Rev 12:9-10 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. (10) And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

 

[agua.]

is your name Job?

Or, is his name Simon Peter?
31 “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat..." (Luke 22:31 NASB)

Yes we believers belong to Jesus and satan can only touch us with His permission. eg, 1 Cor 5:5

 

[Deborah13]

Yes we believers belong to Jesus and satan can only touch us with His permission. eg, 1 Cor 5:5

I don't believe that satan has access to God's throne any longer to ask permission to do anything.
I believe he was permanently cast out. Defanged.
In other words, I don't believe God uses the devil against us.

When satan attacked Job God had to take down the hedge that He had put around Job. Job had no power against satan. He had to just sit there and take it.
We were given power through the Holy Spirit in Jesus name. God gave us the weapons of spiritual warfare. Even to the casting out of devils.

1 Corinth 5:5, I believe is talking about church discipline. Don't let him have the security of the church put him out into satan's world. Hopefully he won't like it, he'll be like a fish out of the water and clean up his act.

 

[reba]

The Cross of Jesus was/is/will be the victory. Satan is defeated...
We have kingdom living, we just dont act like it.

The only Biblical definition of His kingdom i have found...
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Here is some of what Jesus said about the kingdom

Luk 12:31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Mat_4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Mat_10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

 

[Deborah13]

 

[agua.]

I don't believe that satan has access to God's throne any longer to ask permission to do anything.
I believe he was permanently cast out. Defanged.
In other words, I don't believe God uses the devil against us.

When do you say satan was cast out ? I'm guessing at the Ascension because he asked to sift Peter just prior.I don't think Yahweh has ever used satan against believers we must have a different idea of Job's trials.

When satan attacked Job God had to take down the hedge that He had put around Job. Job had no power against satan. He had to just sit there and take it.
We were given power through the Holy Spirit in Jesus name. God gave us the weapons of spiritual warfare. Even to the casting out of devils.

Job's life was protected from satan and yes we do have power against him as you say. I'm not suggesting we don't ie. It's the world that satan controls.

1 Corinth 5:5, I believe is talking about church discipline. Don't let him have the security of the church put him out into satan's world. Hopefully he won't like it, he'll be like a fish out of the water and clean up his act.

Yes it is about Church discipline and notice that outside the Church is pictured as satans world. Do you suggest the believer who is put out of the Church is in no danger from satan ?

 

[Deborah13]

When do you say satan was cast out ? I'm guessing at the Ascension because he asked to sift Peter just prior.I don't think Yahweh has ever used satan against believers we must have a different idea of Job's trials.

I don't know for sure exactly. So when I say the cross, which I should have been more clear, I mean after shortly after the cross. So yes after the ascension for sure.
Rev 12:9 and the great dragon was cast forth--the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world--he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a great voice saying in the heaven, `Now did come the salvation, and the power, and the reign, of our God, and the authority of His Christ, because cast down was the accuser of our brethren, who is accusing them before our God day and night;


When I say use, I don't mean He ever sent satan to attack anyone. But certainly as in the sifting of Peter, permission had to be given, just like Job. (I believe Job's trials were to show Job that all his doings, even though they were righteous doings, could not save him. That he was only saved by the all powerful creator, by His mercy and grace. para, "I knew of you, but now I know")

Job's life was protected from satan and yes we do have power against him as you say. I'm not suggesting we don't ie. It's the world that satan controls.

I never thought you were saying or even suggesting such nonsense (no power). And I understood you as saying that satan controls this world.

Yes it is about Church discipline and notice that outside the Church is pictured as satans world. Do you suggest the believer who is put out of the Church is in no danger from satan ?

No quite the opposite, he is in more danger, within the Church he has brothers and sisters to encourage him and he is hearing and sharing the Word.

 

[agua.]

I don't know for sure exactly. So when I say the cross, which I should have been more clear, I mean after shortly after the cross. So yes after the ascension for sure.
Rev 12:9 and the great dragon was cast forth--the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world--he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a great voice saying in the heaven, `Now did come the salvation, and the power, and the reign, of our God, and the authority of His Christ, because cast down was the accuser of our brethren, who is accusing them before our God day and night;

Here's the thing Deb. If you look closely at Rev 12 it seems to refer to the end times when Israel is suffering during the tribulation period prior to the Parousia. If this is true it implies satan still has access to Heaven and the ear of Yahweh until being cast down mid tribulation.

Rev 12:13-14 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. (14) And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Some people claim the woman is the Church or Mary and suggest the expulsion of satan was shortly after the Cross but the context indicates Israel and the tribulation period imo. The comparison to Daniels tribulation prophecies is strong.

When I say use, I don't mean He ever sent satan to attack anyone. But certainly as in the sifting of Peter, permission had to be given, just like Job. (I believe Job's trials were to show Job that all his doings, even though they were righteous doings, could not save him. That he was only saved by the all powerful creator, by His mercy and grace. para, "I knew of you, but now I know")

It's interesting that Peter was tested by satan imo and possibly "sifted". Jesus prayed that Peter's faith wouldn't fail because of this. Nice thinking on Job's trials and if that wasn't the purpose it certainly was the outcome.

I never thought you were saying or even suggesting such nonsense (no power). And I understood you as saying that satan controls this world.

Ok my bad sorry for jumping to the wrong idea.

No quite the opposite, he is in more danger, within the Church he has brothers and sisters to encourage him and he is hearing and sharing the Word.

And this is the interesting thing. If satan is able to attack believers we must be vigilant and constant in prayer as Jesus prayed for Peter imo. There is safety amongst Brothers and Sisters for sure amen.

 

[Deborah13]

Here's the thing Deb. If you look closely at Rev 12 it seems to refer to the end times when Israel is suffering during the tribulation period prior to the Parousia. If this is true it implies satan still has access to Heaven and the ear of Yahweh until being cast down mid tribulation.

Rev 12:13-14 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. (14) And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Some people claim the woman is the Church or Mary and suggest the expulsion of satan was shortly after the Cross but the context indicates Israel and the tribulation period imo. The comparison to Daniels tribulation prophecies is strong.



It's interesting that Peter was tested by satan imo and possibly "sifted". Jesus prayed that Peter's faith wouldn't fail because of this. Nice thinking on Job's trials and if that wasn't the purpose it certainly was the outcome.



Ok my bad sorry for jumping to the wrong idea.



And this is the interesting thing. If satan is able to attack believers we must be vigilant and constant in prayer as Jesus prayed for Peter imo. There is safety amongst Brothers and Sisters for sure amen.

You may be right, our eschatology is different so we will not get any further.

Blessings to you, in Jesus name. :nod

 

[Deborah13]

Lucifer’s name meant light-bearer when he was created as he was a reflection of Gods brightness as one who had favor in the Lord. God changed his name to Satan, which means adversary, after he fell from heaven. God changed many names from one to another in the Bible to reflect his glory through them as a nation. Lucifer was created perfect in all his ways with beauty, wisdom and freewill. God placed him as the guardian or protector over the throne of God in heaven. He was entrusted with many possessions and found much favor in the Lord.

God created the earth and saw that it was good and he took Lucifer from GodsHolyMountain and set him over the Garden of Eden as a covering cherub to watch over and enjoy all that was of God. As Lucifer was set in the garden iniquity was soon found in him as he defiled Gods sanctuary through pride in his own beauty and wisdom as he wanted all that was of Gods here on earth to be his own and iniquity soon filled his heart as he tried to make his throne above the angels and be God. Because iniquity was found in him God cast him and those angels who chose to follow him out of his holy mountain and cast them all down to earth to be trampled of all nations. The only reference in scripture that denotes there being one third of the angels falling with Satan is in Revelation 12:9. (Ref: Read Ezekiel Chapter 28 Prince of Tyrus)

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Ezekiel 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezekiel 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Satan was cast down to the earth and became the ruler of iniquity over it before the creation of man which is why he had the power and right to give the kingdoms of the world over to Christ. Satan corrupted the nations until there was no righteous person found except Noah. Even after Satan was cast down to the ground he still vowed that he would ascend back into heaven and take his place on the throne and be like the most high.

Remember, Satan is a spirit and not flesh and blood so when he was cut down to the ground it was not literal, but symbolic that his so called kingdom would be that of a lesser magnitude than Gods kingdom. Satan is the total opposite of the love that God represents so whatever good that God does Satan does the opposite. For instance we know that the greatest commandment of God is to love and our commission is to take his word out into the world. Our service is to feed the hungry, cloth the naked, visit the sick and those in prison. Prison can be a literal prison or those who are imprisoned in mind by their own devastations of life circumstances that engulfs them. Since Satan is known as the god of this world and the prince of the powers of the air he has access to the throne of God to accuse the saints of God as Jesus makes intercession for them. Satan has no authority in heaven as he lost that privilege, but was cut down to earth and through his hatred and anger of God now uses his deceit to separate man from God by stealing the word of God from them thus stealing their faith in God.

2Corinthians 4:4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

I see that satan was the one who drew and cast down his angels.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation,

Now I see that satan and his angels were cast out.

 

[agua.]

You may be right, our eschatology is different so we will not get any further.

Blessings to you, in Jesus name. :nod

Oky doky. If you have time do a study on Rev 12 Blessings to you back .

 

[Deborah13]

Oky doky. If you have time do a study on Rev 12 Blessings to you back .

I've been studying for several months, since last June.
Back in 1978 I took a college coarse class given by my church all on Revelation. For many years...
I used to believe what you believe.

Thankfully it's not a salvation issue.

 

[agua.]

I've been studying for several months, since last June.
Back in 1978 I took a college coarse class given by my church all on Revelation. For many years...
I used to believe what you believe.

Thankfully it's not a salvation issue.

Ah ok no worries. Are you Supersessionist ? It isn't salvic but it does hold some interesting end times perspectives, as you know, and effects today's world as well.

 

[Deborah13]

Ah ok no worries. Are you Supersessionist ? It isn't salvic but it does hold some interesting end times perspectives, as you know, and effects today's world as well.

I had to look at up to find out that this is replacement theology. No, that is not what I believe.
What did Paul say, that Abraham is the father of us all. Who is the seed of Abraham, not seeds but one Seed, Jesus Christ. The body of Christ is not whole without those from the nation of Israel or without those from all the other nations. Do I believe that every single Israelite that was ever born will be saved? No, and Paul didn't either. He grieved for his people. He would not have grieved if he believed that they would all be saved.
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

I don't believe in a rapture, where the "Church" will be removed. We are all in this together.
Israel/Judah brought the light into the world. First as Jesus the light to the world, then the Jewish Apostles spread that light, the Gospel of the Christ, the Messiah, to all the nations.
We are to be joined together, one Father, one Christ, one family.

 

[agua.]

I had to look at up to find out that this is replacement theology. No, that is not what I believe.
What did Paul say, that Abraham is the father of us all. Who is the seed of Abraham, not seeds but one Seed, Jesus Christ. The body of Christ is not whole without those from the nation of Israel or without those from all the other nations. Do I believe that every single Israelite that was ever born will be saved? No, and Paul didn't either. He grieved for his people. He would not have grieved if he believed that they would all be saved.
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

I don't believe in a rapture, where the "Church" will be removed. We are all in this together.
Israel/Judah brought the light into the world. First as Jesus the light to the world, then the Jewish Apostles spread that light, the Gospel of the Christ, the Messiah, to all the nations.
We are to be joined together, one Father, one Christ, one family.

I believe the same. This makes me curious as to how you believe satan was cast down already according to Rev 12. No biggie though thanks for the great description of the Body of Christ.

 

[Deborah13]

I believe the same. This makes me curious as to how you believe satan was cast down already according to Rev 12. No biggie though thanks for the great description of the Body of Christ.

That would need to be a different thread than this one. It would need to be in the End Times forum.

 

[agua.]

That would need to be a different thread than this one. It would need to be in the End Times forum.

Oky doky this implies the casting down is yet to come :D I'll open a thread.

 

[Deborah13]

Oky doky this implies the casting down is yet to come :biggrin I'll open a thread.

ok. But I am still fumbling my way through some of it. There are others here who could be of great assistance though. I've really had to start all over. Examining each scripture and sometimes it can be a matter of one word that changes the reading, just like all the other scriptures.

I done for the night, it's 2:15 am here.

 

[agua.]

ok. But I am still fumbling my way through some of it. There are others here who could be of great assistance though. I've really had to start all over. Examining each scripture and sometimes it can be a matter of one word that changes the reading, just like all the other scriptures.

I done for the night, it's 2:15 am here.

I opened a thread chuck your thoughts in there tomorrow I'd like to see them. The Bible is such a treasure trove.

You people stay up late. lol

 

[Free]

Ah ok I see what you mean. I think there's a distinction between the "world" and Jesus' Kingdom. The world as mentioned by Jesus encompasses the evil and unbelieving while Jesus Kingdom is for the righteous only. Jesus is the Ruler of the Kingdom of God but as He said " Mt Kingdom is not of this world".

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world."

Yes, Jesus' kingdom is not from this world, but that in no way means that it is not currently in this world with Jesus reigning as King. His point is that he goes about things differently than people of the world do, not that his kingdom is of no consequence, since it clearly is quite the opposite.

At present Jesus protects His subjects on Earth but the world is under control of satan.

1Jn 5:18-19 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. (19) We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

This simply means that Satan has influence in this world, that people follow him, so in that respect, he can control unbelievers. Rather, we see that Jesus is currently reigning now:

1 Cor 15:23-26, 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. (ESV)

Phil 2:8-11, 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (ESV)

If Jesus is reigning now, as we see above, then Satan can't be ruling.

Jesus will return and remove control of the world from satan and bind him during the Millennium. Tell me Free what do you suggest a ruler does ?

There is nothing to suggest that when the millennium begins, Jesus isn't already ruling. If Satan is ruling now, then Jesus' death really didn't do much, did it? What do you think the purpose of his death and resurrection were for? Simply for us to be saved? Is that all there is to it?

According to Revelations 12 it seems this event is future possibly during the tribulation period.

Rev 12:9-10 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. (10) And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

Be very careful in appealing to Revelation, it is not in chronological order--some things in it have happened and some things have yet to happen.