Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[Nathan]

The question is immaterial. The only thing that counts is what the Bible says. And both Jesus and John said that we HAVE eternal life now.


No.

You do, by faith. I promise, each and every person that has faith in Christ has eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace]

Brother, your 'eternal' reward is life. I hope your not disappointing when you get there.....

Huh? If eternal life is a reward, then, by definition, I've earned it. Is that your theology about salvation? I disagree strongly with such an idea.

I suggest a review of 2 Cor 5:10 regarding reward.

 

[Nathan]

I have it right now, because Jesus said those who believe HAVE eternal life, not WILL HAVE eternal life someday, or after they die.

And, as I have previousy shared, we are destined to die once (physically) and after that, the judgment. Where some will die again.

Right, and at the Judgment we receive our reward of the faith - eternal life. Then, we will not die again.

If you 'had' eternal life right now you would not die. Or else its not eternal life. If eternal life can die, then how can it be eternal?

 

[Nathan]

Huh? If eternal life is a reward, then, by definition, I've earned it. Is that your theology about salvation? I disagree strongly with such an idea.

I suggest a review of 2 Cor 5:10 regarding reward.

Hmmmm, no, you will not earn anything. I am sorry you feel that way. You only get to receive that which God works in you. All of your righteousness is filthy rags to Him. However, His righteousness in you(through faith), produces fruit, His fruit, and you will receive the rewards of that fruit.

Its all His, and will always be His. All Glory to God!

 

[chessman]

I suppose your not understanding me.

I can only understand what you write. I've understood what you've written.

Paul is simply saying, in Romans 6:22, that we now have been freed from sin and enslaved to God, our benefit from this is our faith(gift of God), it leads us in sanctification(process that happens here on earth), and then the outcome(once this mortal dies and is planted) is eternal life

I can only understand what you write.

Paul simply said:

Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. ​

Let's compare to what you say about it:

Paul is simply saying, in Romans 6:22, that we now have been freed from sin and enslaved to God ...

So far, so good.

... our benefit from this is our faith(gift of God), ...

Oh my, were does the verse say anything about our benefit being "our faith"?

... ["our faith"] it leads us in sanctification(process that happens here on earth), ...

Oh my, oh my. Brother, the Holy Spirit leads us, not "our faith".

...and then the outcome(once this mortal dies and is planted) is eternal life

Oh my, oh my, oh my.

That's NOT what Paul says in Rom 6:22 at all. Not one word about eternal life "once the mortal dies".

 

[Nathan]

I can only understand what you write. I've understood what you've written.



I can only understand what you write.

Paul simply said:

Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. ​

Let's compare to what you say about it:


So far, so good.


Oh my, were does the verse say anything about our benefit being "our faith"?


Oh my, oh my. Brother, the Holy Spirit leads us, not "our faith".



Oh my, oh my, oh my.

That's NOT what Paul says in Rom 6:22 at all. Not one word about eternal life "once the mortal dies".

Ok. Let's go simpler.

Is something mortal also eternal?

 

[chessman]

Ok. Let's go simpler.

Is something mortal also eternal?

No.
Was Jesus' human body mortal yet His soul immortal?

If you are trying to convince me that John, Jesus, Paul or any other NT Text says that we do not receive Eternal Life until the Judgment, then simply post the Text.

But it ain't Rom 6:22-23.

 

[GodsGrace]

I can only understand what you write. I've understood what you've written.



I can only understand what you write.

Paul simply said:

Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. ​

Let's compare to what you say about it:


So far, so good.


Oh my, were does the verse say anything about our benefit being "our faith"?


Oh my, oh my. Brother, the Holy Spirit leads us, not "our faith".



Oh my, oh my, oh my.

That's NOT what Paul says in Rom 6:22 at all. Not one word about eternal life "once the mortal dies".

Chessman

If I don't have faith, can the Holy Spirit lead me?

Would You let someone you have no faith in, lead you?

 

[Nathan]

No.
Was Jesus' human body mortal yet His soul immortal?

If you are trying to convince me that John, Jesus, Paul or any other NT Text says that we do not receive Eternal Life until the Judgment, then simply post the Text.

But it ain't Rom 6:22-23.

Jesus is God. Are you god?

I'm not trying to convince you. Just having a conversation.

Matthew 25:46 (ESV)
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

How can they go there if they already are there?

 

[Nathan]

Luke 18
29And he said to them, "Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers[fn] or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,
30 who will not receive many times more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life."


Why is Jesus saying they receive eternal life in the age to come if they already have it when they get there?

 

[FreeGrace]

Right, and at the Judgment we receive our reward of the faith - eternal life. Then, we will not die again.

By definition, a reward is something earned. If eternal life is earned, then it cannot be grace.

If you 'had' eternal life right now you would not die.

That's an opinion. What are the facts?

Or else its not eternal life.

I shared John 5:24 and 1 John 5:13. Did Jesus and Paul misspeak?

If eternal life can die, then how can it be eternal?

it cannot die. The Bible never says our bodies possess eternal life. But Jesus and John said that we HAVE eternal life. Therefore, they were not speaking of our physical bodies, but our spirits.

 

[FreeGrace]

Hmmmm, no, you will not earn anything. I am sorry you feel that way.

By definition, a reward is earned. I am sorry you aren't familiar with the definition of "reward".

You only get to receive that which God works in you. All of your righteousness is filthy rags to Him. However, His righteousness in you(through faith), produces fruit, His fruit, and you will receive the rewards of that fruit.

Now yer talking! The result of our fruit IS rewarded.

 

[JLB]

Huh? If eternal life is a reward, then, by definition, I've earned it. Is that your theology about salvation? I disagree strongly with such an idea.

I suggest a review of 2 Cor 5:10 regarding reward.

The scriptures plainly show us who will and will not receive eternal life:

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8


JLB

 

[JLB]

That's an opinion. What are the facts?

Can you die?

Denying the facts of scripture does not make it go away.

Here is when you will receive eternal life in which you can not die.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36


When you have been counted worthy to attain the age to come and the resurrection of the dead, and are declared by Him to be sons of God, then you will not die anymore.

• When you here these words from Him:

‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world


31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34



JLB

 

[chessman]

Matthew 25:46 (ESV)
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

How can they go there if they already are there?

Simple, easy and 100% in agreement with the passages that were written to us so that we could be assured we HAVE eternal life. Ready for the answer???

Who are these??? These are post resurrection bodies that have been united with our souls. I've never said, implied or believed that pre-ressurection bodies are immortal or that God promises anything other than death (mortality) to these pre-ressurection bodies. Eternal Life does NOT include our bodies never dying.

This is why I asked you if you were a physicalist. Physicalist have a huge problem in this area.

 

[chessman]

If I don't have faith, can the Holy Spirit lead me?

Did the Holy Spirit lead you, as a non-believer, to believe?

Yes, the Holy Spirit can lead non-believers. I was one and the Holy Spirit led me to a conviction of my sin.

John 16:8-11 (NASB) And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. ​

Would You let someone you have no faith in, lead you?

No.

 

[GodsGrace]

Did the Holy Spirit lead you, as a non-believer, to believe?


Yes, the Holy Spirit can lead non-believers. I was one and the Holy Spirit led me to a conviction of my sin.

John 16:8-11 (NASB) And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. ​

No.

In post no. 244 you said the Holy Spirit leads us, not our faith.
It's our Faith in the Holy Spirit that allows us to be led by Him.

If we do not have faith in the HS, we will not allow Him to lead.
You agreed that you would not let someone you do not have faith in lead you.

Ever more so God, who leads you in the most important matters of your life.

No faith, no belief, no leading by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Nathan]

Simple, easy and 100% in agreement with the passages that were written to us so that we could be assured we HAVE eternal life. Ready for the answer???

Who are these??? These are post resurrection bodies that have been united with our souls. I've never said, implied or believed that pre-ressurection bodies are immortal or that God promises anything other than death (mortality) to these pre-ressurection bodies. Eternal Life does NOT include our bodies never dying.

This is why I asked you if you were a physicalist. Physicalist have a huge problem in this area.

I think your passing over the passages. Jesus plainly states we receive eternal life in heaven.

If we have it now, why do we receive it there?

*lets edit this in here.

Galatians 6:8 (ESV)
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

How is it that we will reap eternal life, if we already have it?

 

[Nathan]

By definition, a reward is earned. I am sorry you aren't familiar with the definition of "reward".


Now yer talking! The result of our fruit IS rewarded.

Let's look at this a different way.

Can you have eternal life apart from Christ?

 

[chessman]

Disclaimer: One question post.

Let's back-up and "converse" about your interpretation of Rom 6:22 please (or mine if you have any questions about it). It's a simple verse. It says what it says. And I'd be glad to look at any of Romans' broader contextual argument you have against my interpretation of it, if you feel I'm taking Paul out of context. It's actually quite easy to unintentionally do sometimes and I'm not immune to taking a verse out of context. But someone needs to show why/how if they make that claim.

I'd love to see you apologetically defend your interpretation of it. I can defend mine. As you've made it clear that you think I'm misunderstanding something Paul says here.

Let's start with where we agree. You said:

Paul is simply saying, in Romans 6:22, that we now have been freed from sin and enslaved to God, ...

Correct. That's what he started his conclusion with. I mean, that's what he literally said (as translated from the Greek). Thus, I'm at a loss as to how any Bible believer would actually claim otherwise (not that you did). I mean he's clearly saying these actions have occured.

Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, ...​

Are you aware of the reason the verbs Paul used translated "now having been freed" and "enslaved" are translated so clearly as having actually occured (past tense)?

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/6-22.htm

"now having been freed" is literally one word in the Greek. It's an aorist tensed verb. Thus it takes four English words to make Paul's meaning clear to us. The LEB (Logos' literal translation) says:

Romans 6:22 (LEB) But now, having been set free from sin and having been enslaved to God, ...​

"Having been enslaved" being one Aorist tense verb in the Greek.