Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[chessman]

I think your passing over the passages. Jesus plainly states we receive eternal life in heaven.

Which passages of Jesus' did I 'pass over'? I explained that saved by Grace souls (that have eternal life) are reunited with resurrected (immortal) bodies and these do go into Eternal life together . I 'passed over' nothing. Nor do I disagree with anything Jesus or Paul or John says.

 

[chessman]

It's our Faith in the Holy Spirit that allows us to be led by Him.

Okay, I agree.

If we do not have faith in the HS, we will not allow Him to lead.

You're right. You said what I meant better than I did. Thanks.

 

[Nathan]

Disclaimer: One question post.

Let's back-up and "converse" about your interpretation of Rom 6:22 please (or mine if you have any questions about it). It's a simple verse. It says what it says. And I'd be glad to look at any of Romans' broader contextual argument you have against my interpretation of it, if you feel I'm taking Paul out of context. It's actually quite easy to unintentionally do sometimes and I'm not immune to taking a verse out of context. But someone needs to show why/how if they make that claim.

I'd love to see you apologetically defend your interpretation of it. I can defend mine. As you've made it clear that you think I'm misunderstanding something Paul says hete.

Let's start with where we agree. You said:


Correct. That's what he started his conclusion with. I mean, that's what he literally said (as translated from the Greek). Thus, I'm at a loss as to how any Bible believer would actually claim otherwise (not that you did). I mean he's clearly saying these actions have occured.

Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, ...​

Are you aware of the reason the verbs Paul used translated "now having been freed" and "enslaved" are translated so clearly as having actually occured (past tense)?

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/6-22.htm

"now having been freed" is literally one word in the Greek. It's an aorist tensed verb. Thus it takes four English words to make Paul's meaning clear to us. The LEB (Logos' literal translation) says:

Romans 6:22 (LEB) But now, having been set free from sin and having been enslaved to God, ...​

"Having been enslaved" being one Aorist tense verb in the Greek.

Fair enough. . We can discuss it.

I agree completely. We have been set free, past tense. Then, present tense, we are slaves to God. We have to be one or the other, no middle ground.

So, as the passages says, "the fruit you get" from this slavery to God, "leads to sanctification" - which is to say, the fruit(works) we see is what is purifying us - setting us apart.

The end of this purification process, as it is with gold or any other precious metal, is complete holiness - set apart. When Gold is purified, it is set apart from the dirt in it.

So, when this process is done, "its end is eternal life".

Consider this. Where does sin come from? Is it just my flesh, or is sin when I desire something from my heart?

What is the sanctification process for? Is it to conform my flesh/body, that will die, or is it to conform and purify my heart?

Now ask yourself this. What is eternal life? No, not just 'life' that's eternal. What is it?

It is Christ. He is the eternal life. Do you posses Him, or does He posses you?

Now, can God physically inhabit you when there is sin? No, but He can through faith. So until you are completely pure, God cannot fully abide in you - except through faith.

Once you put off this flesh, then you will put off the man of sin, you will be transformed and no longer will there be any sin.

You will then be in perfect condition for God to live in you, and the result of that is eternal life.

 

[Nathan]

Which passages of Jesus' did I 'pass over'? I explained that saved by Grace souls (that have eternal life) are reunited with resurrected (immortal) bodies and these do go into Eternal life together . I 'passed over' nothing. Nor do I disagree with anything Jesus or Paul or John says.

I don't like having double conversations going, but I felt it needed a question.

Are you saying we receive part of eternal life now, and the other part after death?

 

[GodsGrace]

Fair enough. . We can discuss it.

I agree completely. We have been set free, past tense. Then, present tense, we are slaves to God. We have to be one or the other, no middle ground.

So, as the passages says, "the fruit you get" from this slavery to God, "leads to sanctification" - which is to say, the fruit(works) we see is what is purifying us - setting us apart.

The end of this purification process, as it is with gold or any other precious metal, is complete holiness - set apart. When Gold is purified, it is set apart from the dirt in it.

So, when this process is done, "its end is eternal life".

Consider this. Where does sin come from? Is it just my flesh, or is sin when I desire something from my heart?

What is the sanctification process for? Is it to conform my flesh/body, that will die, or is it to conform and purify my heart?

Now ask yourself this. What is eternal life? No, not just 'life' that's eternal. What is it?

It is Christ. He is the eternal life. Do you posses Him, or does He posses you?

Now, can God physically inhabit you when there is sin? No, but He can through faith. So until you are completely pure, God cannot fully abide in you - except through faith.

Once you put off this flesh, then you will put off the man of sin, you will be transformed and no longer will there be any sin.

You will then be in perfect condition for God to live in you, and the result of that is eternal life.

:nod​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ah, if eternal life IS "never ending life", how can one lose it? Where does that life go?

Lol, how predictable.
I knew someone would read my post through the lens of OSAS.

Eternal life is, and always will be never ending. What has not been determined in this life is if the Christian will continue to possess the life that never ends. If a Christian stops believing, God's eternal life will most certainly continue into eternity....without him. Eternal life doesn't stop being eternal just because someone stops possessing it. That would be like saying a $1M lotto ticket stops being worth $1M if you lose it.

Life in the coming kingdom will not end because the coming kingdom will not end. In contrast to the kingdom of God that did end and was destroyed, twice, during the old covenant. With that fact in mind, these passages of scripture take on much more meaning and significance:

"3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5 NASB bold and underline mine)


18“Violence will not be heard again in your land,
Nor devastation or destruction within your borders;
But you will call your walls salvation, and your gates praise.

19“No longer will you have the sun for light by day,
Nor for brightness will the moon give you light;
But you will have the LORD for an everlasting light,
And your God for your glory.

20“Your sun will no longer set,
Nor will your moon wane;
For you will have the LORD for an everlasting light,
And the days of your mourning will be over.

21“Then all your people will be righteous;
They will possess the land forever,
The branch of My planting,
The work of My hands

(Isaiah 60:18-21 NASB)​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Don't let trials/temptations or the cares of this world distract you from bearing fruit.

The danger being that fruitless branches (land, etc.) that are fruitless because of unbelief are unbelieving branches that will be cut out of Christ's kingdom, just as the Israelites were, and will be burned on the Day of Judgment.

Christ IS eternal life (1 John 5:20 NASB). If you are cut out and away from Christ, you can not have eternal life. People (branches) that don't have eternal life in them will be burned, not saved.

 

[chessman]

Then, present tense, we are slaves to God. We have to be one or the other, no middle ground.

??? Where do you get the idea that the verb "having been enslaved" is present tense in Paul's letter? It's not. That's simply incorrect. Nor did I say it was present tense. It's past tense in English, from the Aorist tense in Greek. Please be careful with your apologetics. The tenses of these two verbs are exactly the same. If "having been set free from sin" is past tense (and it is), then so is "enslaved to God". They are exactly the same tenses in Greek and English. I even posted the interliner to prove it.

Romans 6:22 (LEB) But now, having been set free from sin and having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit leading to sanctification, and its end is eternal life.​

Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. ​

From: The Elements of New Testament Greek" by Jeremy Duff, David Wenham:

"If you want to express present time, there is no choice in Greek. You just use the Present tense, even though this can have two different aspects –undefined or process."

Start reading it for free: http://a.co/53k5eXy


BTW, I scanned the rest of your reply and counted six questions. Do you expect people to answer six of your questions in one reply post (based on an error in the first claim made for "having been enslaved"), while requesting other people only post one question at a time to you? [yes, that's two questions in one post, sorry].

I do have more to say about your reply and answers to all your questions. But I'm afraid that we need to step back again, and agree on letting the actual Text form the basis for your (our) apologetic argument. If you're gonna say things like the tense of "having been enslaved" is present tense, yet it's not, we can stop the conversation.

 

[chessman]

Are you saying we receive part of eternal life now, and the other part after death?

No. I'm trying to discuss Romans 6:22-23 with you.

I could say pretty much anything, but what matters to us both in the end, is what the Texts actually says.

 

[Nathan]

??? Where do you get the idea that the verb "having been enslaved" is present tense in Paul's letter? It's not. That's simply incorrect. Nor did I say it was present tense. It's past tense in English, from the Aorist tense in Greek. Please be careful with your apologetics. The tenses of these two verbs are exactly the same. If "having been set free from sin" is past tense (and it is), then so is "enslaved to God". They are exactly the same tenses in Greek and English. I even posted the interliner to prove it.

Romans 6:22 (LEB) But now, having been set free from sin and having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit leading to sanctification, and its end is eternal life.​

Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. ​

From: The Elements of New Testament Greek" by Jeremy Duff, David Wenham:

"If you want to express present time, there is no choice in Greek. You just use the Present tense, even though this can have two different aspects –undefined or process."

Start reading it for free: http://a.co/53k5eXy


BTW, I scanned the rest of your reply and counted six questions. Do you expect people to answer six of your questions in one reply post (based on an error in the first claim made for "having been enslaved"), while requesting other people only post one question at a time to you? [yes, that's two questions in one post, sorry].

I do have more to say about your reply and answers to all your questions. But I'm afraid that we need to step back again, and agree on letting the actual Text form the basis for your (our) apologetic argument. If you're gonna say things like the tense of "having been enslaved" is present tense, yet it's not, we can stop the conversation.

Chessman, I didn't say that you said it was present tense. I'm saying it is.

Your right about the aorist tense. Both those words are such because Paul was letting the reader know that you come out of one slavery straight into the other. Paul later goes on to say that your either one or the other, depending on who you present yourself too. The context of the verse was just that you have to be one or the other - not both - not neither one.

I apologize. I was following it out in logical progression. Please feel free to back it up to where you feel we need to be and I'll do my best to keep in the singular progression.

 

[Nathan]

No. I'm trying to discuss Romans 6:22-23 with you.

I could say pretty much anything, but what matters to us both in the end, is what the Texts actually says.

Agreed. Let's keep with the progression. I apologize for jumping ahead.

 

[GodsGrace]

Having been made free from sin.
It means we're freed from sin right now.

Were enslaved
means we were enslaved in the past and we DON'T KNOW if we're still enslaved.

Are Enslaved
means right now

Will be enslaved
means at some time in the future

What more is there to know?????

Forget about Greek.
Who needs Greek?
Let's try Italian:

Romans 6:22
Now, instead, having been freed from sin
(we are this moment freed from sin)

Made instead slaves of God
(we are at this moment slaves of God)

Gather up your fruit for justification
Right now gather up your fruit for justification

And the end will be eternal life.
And at THE END (of our life) we will have eternal life.


Romans 6:23
The recompense for sin is death
If you sin, your payment will be death

The gift of God's Grace, is eternal life In Christ Jesus, our Lord
God is so good, He gifts to us eternal life IN CHRIST.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

God's gift is eternal life when we are IN CHIRST.

If we remain in Christ, we WILL HAVE, in the future, eternal life,
If we are NOT in Christ, we will NOT have eteral life.
Not NOW, not at our death and not after our death.

 

[Nathan]

Just to clairify, I'm saying it's present tense in its essence, not in the actual Greek.

 

[GodsGrace]

Chessman, I didn't say that you said it was present tense. I'm saying it is.

Your right about the aorist tense. Both those words are such because Paul was letting the reader know that you come out of one slavery straight into the other. Paul later goes on to say that your either one or the other, depending on who you present yourself too. The context of the verse was just that you have to be one or the other - not both - not neither one.

I apologize. I was following it out in logical progression. Please feel free to back it up to where you feel we need to be and I'll do my best to keep in the singular progression.

Why back up.
What you say above is correct.

 

[GodsGrace]

Just to clairify, I'm saying it's present tense in its essence, not in the actual Greek.

Forget Greek.

We're having enough problems trying to understand English.
Just stick to the word

BELIEVE

What tense is that?
Past
present
futuire
one of the many others?

It's PRESENT.
We must BELIEVE NOW if we want to be saved.
Right now, at this moment.

No need to know Greek. The translators knew it.
We don't need to know it in this case. It's more than apparent that we need TO BELIEVE
RIGHT NOW.

 

[Nathan]

Why back up.
What you say above is correct.

Well, it's in order so we can logically step through it all.

In logic, if you miss a step, then the rest of the 'program' gets mixed up. The writer of the logic knows the final and complete program, but those following along can get confused.

It's hard to answer multiple questions, and address them individually. One person may not understand that one question was in response to another, then mix it up with yet another.

It's hard when your doing it over the internet like this if there is not logical progression. It turns into a blog instead of a conversation.

 

[Nathan]

Forget Greek.

We're having enough problems trying to understand English.
Just stick to the word

BELIEVE

What tense is that?
Past
present
futuire
one of the many others?

It's PRESENT.
We must BELIEVE NOW if we want to be saved.
Right now, at this moment.

No need to know Greek. The translators knew it.
We don't need to know it in this case. It's more than apparent that we need TO BELIEVE
RIGHT NOW.

Yes and no. Greek is important to get complete understanding. Its not needed to get the idea, but the Greek language is so full of meaning that we loose when translating. So many words that have different meanings, but use the same English words.

Tense matters when you get to more complex sentences and idea's. In regards to Romans 6:22 not so much, but it does show that, in regards to slavery, its one or the other - not a progression to one or the other. Its an immediate process. That does help to understand it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, it's in order so we can logically step through it all.

In logic, if you miss a step, then the rest of the 'program' gets mixed up. The writer of the logic knows the final and complete program, but those following along can get confused.

It's hard to answer multiple questions, and address them individually. One person may not understand that one question was in response to another, then mix it up with yet another.

It's hard when your doing it over the internet like this if there is not logical progression. It turns into a blog instead of a conversation.

I've been reading along and I don't get what it's all about.
I said what I've had to say and will recluse myself.
You're an excellent poster Nathan.
Continue with your program.

Here's the program:

You could serve satan
You could serve God

You have a choice

You serve satan, you go to live with satan
You serve God, you go to live with God.

Nothing in between.

You have to be serving whom you will serve at the time of death.
Or it doesn't count.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes and no. Greek is important to get complete understanding. Its not needed to get the idea, but the Greek language is so full of meaning that we loose when translating. So many words that have different meanings, but use the same English words.

Tense matters when you get to more complex sentences and idea's. In regards to Romans 6:22 not so much, but it does show that, in regards to slavery, its one or the other - not a progression to one or the other. Its an immediate process. That does help to understand it.

Well, I said this in my post 277, which got posted at the same moment as the above.
The complex sentences can be handled just fine with English.
No progression...
It's a DECISION.
It's a CHOICE.

(I'm preaching to the choir)

 

[chessman]

I agree completely. We have been set free, past tense. Then, present tense, we are slaves to God.

Chessman, I didn't say that you said it was present tense.

Again, I can only understand what you write, not what mean.

I'm saying it's present tense in its essence, not in the actual Greek.

Wow. If Paul would have meant it to be present tense, he could have (and would have) said so. He didn't.

Paul was letting the reader know that you come out of one slavery straight into the other.

Once again (last time), Paul was letting the reader know that you come came out of one slavery straight into the other. I have no idea why you can't just let the Text be the Text here on this point.

The context of the verse was just that you have to be one or the other - not both - not neither one

Agreed. Just as 'you' have to be one or the other; alive or dead. There is no other option. I quickly counted at least 10 different ways (verses) that Paul is making this same point throughout Romans 5 and 6. But here's maybe the clearest two, IMO (notice the consistency of past tense):

Romans 6:4, 7 (LEB) Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we may live a new way of life.
For the one who has died has been freed from sin. ​

The context of the verse was just that you have to be one or the other - not both - not neither one

But the 'you' is a physical (body) and non-physical (soul), right??? My point:

The body can be dead yet the soul alive, and vesa-versa, agreed?