Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[chessman]

I think you may have misunderstood the question. Romans clearly states that God gives us something that is (equal to) eternal life.

Then can you rephrase your question because it certainly seems like you were asking what "eternal life" is.

What is the gift of God that =(is) eternal life?

I'm a computer engineer and use logical equations often. Paul is very much presenting logical arguments throughout Romans and their conclusions. If I see an equation such as:
X = EL

I know what X is if I know what EL is. Or vesa-versa, I know what EL is if I know what X is. For they are equal by definition.

One might have a very easy way to determine X from another equation(s) or known values. And if so, you'd have EL by definition. And vesa-versa.

So which term are you questioning? Both are self explanatory to me.

If Paul wanted to mean that God gives us eternal life(in and of itself) he would have said that,

He did, in a way. Eternal life is the outcome per Paul. Outcome of what?

Let's say we didn't know what X is. We just know EL=X. So if we know X, we have EL because Paul told us they are equal. We need to find X, somehow.

Why??? Because his other logical argument in these chapters is about death. Do I need to define "death" or can we simply agree that death is the outcome if someone does not have life? Death = no life

On Paul's view, death is also the outcome of sin (throughout chapters 1-5). He even tells us from where death originated. Namely, Adam's sin.

Romans 5:12-14 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.​

So, given death's problem for all men, what's the solution??? Much of chapter 6 deals with this. And we can discuss any of it. But he's wrapping up His conclusion in verses 22-23.

Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now having been freed from sin [FS] and enslaved to God [EG] , you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification , and the outcome, eternal life [EL]. ​

In logical terms:

FS + EG = S = El

If you want to know Eternal Life, you need to know how to be freed from sin [FS] and ensalved to God [EG]. In otherwords, we need to know sanctification.

Luckily, Paul tells us what sanctification is too. And how we obtain it (sanctification).

Does he say FS + EG (sanctification) is a life spent trying our best to live sin free (and ultimately failing at it)? Umm, no. He describes FS + EG as coming from God (Christ in particular) twice:

Romans 6:17-18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. ​

So that in his conclusion, he can indeed describe EL as a gift of God.

Romans 6:23 (NASB) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

but instead he states that God gives us something that is equal to it. There is a reason for that.

Yep! Good point.

 

[Nathan]

If anyone is able to receive eternal life from "patient continuance in doing good", salvation is by works. And we know that is impossible because Paul was very clear about the fact that no one can do that. In fact, in 3:9 and 3:23 he plainly states that all have sinned. That means no one has "by patient continuance has done good". No one.

And 3:20 is equally clear that no one is justified by observing the Law (continuance in doing good).

Do you believe eternal life can be had apart from faith? Can you have one without the other?

 

[FreeGrace]

You have been shown, plainly.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-28

The "done good" here obviously refers to believing in Jesus Christ for salvation. There is no other way to receive eternal life.

This is what Paul taught in 1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

So, any and every time the Bible says something about "doing good", whether Rom 2 or John 5, it refersw to believing in Christ for eternal life.

Those who believe, present tense, have eternal life.

No argument.

On the Day of Judgement, at the resurrection, each one will be judged "according to his deeds".

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

• This smacks of salvation by lifestyle or works. Believers will be judged according to their deeds in regard to reward, and unbelievers will be judged according to their deeds in regard to how "tolerable/bearable" it will be for them in the lake of fire.

Otherwise, what Jesus said about "being more tolerable/bearable" for some than for others was meaningless. And I don't think anything He said was meaningless.

Verses about being "more tolerable/bearable" for some more than others:
Matt 10:15, 11:22, Mark 6:11, Luke 10:12, 14.

 

[FreeGrace]

It is a quality of life as much as it is a never ending life:

Ah, if eternal life IS "never ending life", how can one lose it? Where does that life go?

 

[FreeGrace]

This is interesting.

Let me ask this question.

Can a person have this "Eternal Life" without also having Faith? Can the two be separated?

Yes. Eternal life is described as a gift of God in Rom 6:23. Rom 11:29 says that God's gifts are irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

Its interpretation. If I said, "I am giving you $10" and then give you a check for $10, did I give you $10?

Depends. Is the check legit? Or rubber and bounces. ;)

But, please support your claim that Rom 6:23 speaks of God's gift being "equal to" eternal life. iow, what is God's gift, if not eternal life itself?

 

[Nathan]

Then can you rephrase your question because it certainly seems like you were asking what "eternal life" is.



I'm a computer engineer and use logical equations often. Paul is very much presenting logical arguments throughout Romans and their conclusions. If I see an equation such as:
X = EL

I know what X is if I know what EL is. Or vesa-versa, I know what EL is if I know what X is. For they are equal by definition.

One might have a very easy way to determine X from another equation(s) or known values. And if so, you'd have EL by definition. And vesa-versa.

So which term are you questioning? Both are self explanatory to me.


He did, in a way. Eternal life is the outcome per Paul. Outcome of what?

Let's say we didn't know what X is. We just know EL=X. So if we know X, we have EL because Paul told us they are equal. We need to find X, somehow.

Why??? Because his other logical argument in these chapters is about death. Do I need to define "death" or can we simply agree that death is the outcome if someone does not have life? Death = no life

On Paul's view, death is also the outcome of sin (throughout chapters 1-5). He even tells us from where death originated. Namely, Adam's sin.

Romans 5:12-14 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.​

So, given death's problem for all men, what's the solution??? Much of chapter 6 deals with this. And we can discuss any of it. But he's wrapping up His conclusion in verses 22-23.

Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now having been freed from sin [FS] and enslaved to God [EG] , you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification , and the outcome, eternal life [EL]. ​

In logical terms:

FS + EG = S = El

If you want to know Eternal Life, you need to know how to be freed from sin [FS] and ensalved to God [EG]. In otherwords, we need to know sanctification.

Luckily, Paul tells us what sanctification is too. And how we obtain it (sanctification).

Does he say FS + EG (sanctification) is a life spent trying our best to live sin free (and ultimately failing at it)? Umm, no. He describes FS + EG as coming from God (Christ in particular) twice:

Romans 6:17-18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. ​

So that in his conclusion, he can indeed describe EL as a gift of God.

Romans 6:23 (NASB) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

Yep! Good point.

Ok, your post really confused me. 2

I'm good at answering one liners really. So I will try to dissect what your saying/asking.

Here is what I know. If we had the literal eternal life of God - guess what - we would not die. Crazy, I know, but true.

So, God must give us something that is equal to it - that will be exchanged for eternal life. Much like a check from a bank.

This, which has been left out of the conversation for some time, is called faith. Faith is equal to eternal life.

On a side note - I am a logical programmer myself, not computer code but machinery. Its nice to know backgrounds of people, you can get an idea of how they think.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you suppose Ezekiel misunderstood God when he wrote the 18th chapter?

I have no idea what any of the human authors of Scripture understood when they wrote. It is clear from 1 Pet 1:10-12a that they may not have:
10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care,
11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow.
12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you

iow, they understood that they were writing for future generations.

 

[Nathan]

Depends. Is the check legit? Or rubber and bounces. ;)

But, please support your claim that Rom 6:23 speaks of God's gift being "equal to" eternal life. iow, what is God's gift, if not eternal life itself?

Well, are you going to die if Jesus does not come back in the next 70 years or so? 80 years?

 

[Nathan]

I have no idea what any of the human authors of Scripture understood when they wrote. It is clear from 1 Pet 1:10-12a that they may not have:
10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care,
11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow.
12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you

iow, they understood that they were writing for future generations.

I assume you do mean that Ezekiel did understand God was telling him to write down what God was saying - just that it might not be meant for them at that time.

Regardless, what is the difference between the two groups of people that God talks about - living and dying?

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you believe eternal life can be had apart from faith? Can you have one without the other?

The Bible says eternal life is obtained on the basis of believing in Christ, per 1 Tim 1:16. And the Bible says that EL is a gift of God in Rom 6:23. And the Bible says that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

So, it's possible for one who has believed who no longer believes (like the second soil in Luke 8:13) to have EL.

iow, once received, EL isn't revokable.

 

[Nathan]

Depends. Is the check legit? Or rubber and bounces. ;)

But, please support your claim that Rom 6:23 speaks of God's gift being "equal to" eternal life. iow, what is God's gift, if not eternal life itself?

Well, are you going to die if Jesus does not come back in the next 70 years or so? 80 years?

Lets put it this way. I already said it once, but its worth repeating again, if we had eternal life at this moment - the actual life eternal - then it would be impossible to die. But we are said to have it, so we must have something that is worth it. That would be faith.

1 Corinthians 15:50
I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

 

[FreeGrace]

Well, are you going to die if Jesus does not come back in the next 70 years or so? 80 years?

The Bible says that we will die and then the judgement in Heb 9:27 - Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

From your post to another member, having eternal life has no effect on one's physical corrupted body, which is how I understood your post.

Yes, our physical bodies will die and decompose. Why? They are bodies of corruption.

Paul explained our physical and spiritual bodies in 1 Cor 15:35-49.

 

[Nathan]

The Bible says eternal life is obtained on the basis of believing in Christ, per 1 Tim 1:16. And the Bible says that EL is a gift of God in Rom 6:23. And the Bible says that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

So, it's possible for one who has believed who no longer believes (like the second soil in Luke 8:13) to have EL.

iow, once received, EL isn't revokable.

One word - impossible.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Do you believe that when we believe we become like little 'gods'?

 

[FreeGrace]

I assume you do mean that Ezekiel did understand God was telling him to write down what God was saying - just that it might not be meant for them at that time.

No, not necessarily. From 1 Pet 1, it seems he was saying that the OT writers knew at least some of what they wrote was for future generations. It's clear from v.11 that the OT writers "were trying to find out the times and circumstances...". Doesn't sound like they actually knew.

Regardless, what is the difference between the two groups of people that God talks about - living and dying?

I don't think it is "regardless" but quite material. In Eze 18, the prophet was speaking of contrasting lifestyles among people. Sinfulness and righteousness. I believe the subject is divine discipline including physical death. Just consider the Mosaic Law and how many things one would be put to death (physical) for.

 

[chessman]

I believe that because in the metaphor, the seed (Word of God) produced actual plants

I understand. And I'm not saying it's impossible that you are wrong and I am right. But...the thorns and thistle plants...were they saved?

 

[FreeGrace]

Lets put it this way. I already said it once, but its worth repeating again, if we had eternal life at this moment - the actual life eternal - then it would be impossible to die.

I disagree. 1 Cor 15 explains that we have a physical (corrupted) body and a spiritual body. It's the spiritual body that cannot die. Our physical bodies most assurredly will die, even though we NOW possess eternal life.

Jesus said that those who believe HAVE eternal life. Not "something that resembles or is equal to eternal life".

 

[Nathan]

No, not necessarily. From 1 Pet 1, it seems he was saying that the OT writers knew at least some of what they wrote was for future generations. It's clear from v.11 that the OT writers "were trying to find out the times and circumstances...". Doesn't sound like they actually knew.


I don't think it is "regardless" but quite material. In Eze 18, the prophet was speaking of contrasting lifestyles among people. Sinfulness and righteousness. I believe the subject is divine discipline including physical death. Just consider the Mosaic Law and how many things one would be put to death (physical) for.

What I mean is God does not change. Ever. Also, we know the context of the chapter has to do with mans soul. Its in black and white, verse 4.

Point being - how does righteousness come to someone?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"he Bible says eternal life is obtained on the basis of believing in Christ, per 1 Tim 1:16. And the Bible says that EL is a gift of God in Rom 6:23. And the Bible says that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

So, it's possible for one who has believed who no longer believes (like the second soil in Luke 8:13) to have EL.

iow, once received, EL isn't revokable."

One word - impossible.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

How does Heb 11:6 "refute" (if that's the thinking) what I posted??

Do you believe that when we believe we become like little 'gods'?

Huh? No. We become God's children. John 1:12, Gal 3:26

 

[FreeGrace]

I understand. And I'm not saying it's impossible that you are wrong and I am right. But...the thorns and thistle plants...were they saved?

The fact that both the second and third soil produced plants from the seed would indicate NEW LIFE from the seed. So, yes, I believe they were.

The parable of the soils is about fruit production, not getting saved. Clearly the first soil wasn't saved because the devil stole the seed away, "lest they believe and be saved" as Jesus put it. So, no production.

Regarding the second and third soils, what kep them from bearing fruit was "trials/temptation" and "cares of this world". This applies to believers. Bearing fruit isn't even an issue for unbelievers. So Jesus was teaching about how to bear fruit.

Don't let trials/temptations or the cares of this world distract you from bearing fruit.