Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[FreeGrace]

What I mean is God does not change. Ever. Also, we know the context of the chapter has to do with mans soul. Its in black and white, verse 4.

Point being - how does righteousness come to someone?

The Bible tells us how: imputed or credited to the one who has faith in Christ. Rom 3 and 4.

 

[Nathan]

I disagree. 1 Cor 15 explains that we have a physical (corrupted) body and a spiritual body. It's the spiritual body that cannot die. Our physical bodies most assurredly will die, even though we NOW possess eternal life.

Jesus said that those who believe HAVE eternal life. Not "something that resembles or is equal to eternal life".

Lets reason this together.

1 Corinthians 38-49
But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.
For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals,another for birds, and another for fish. There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”;
the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

We do not have a spiritual body yet. We have a natural body. Our natural body is sown(it dies) then our spiritual body is brought to life - eternal life in the case of the believer.

We can understand that we do not have "the eternal life" at this moment because that which is spiritual cannot be apart of the flesh. We have to wait for our flesh to be sown before we see the eternal life of God. We, in our flesh, die, with our faith, and then, we are raised eternal and given life.

I assure you, true faith is the same as having eternal life. If Trump wrote me a check for $10, I have zero doubt I would have trouble cashing it in. ;)

Hebrews 11:39-40
And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

When the resurrection happens our faith will be 'cashed' in for eternal life. Then, all throughout the time on earth, will all be made perfect. Oh happy days!

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"he Bible says eternal life is obtained on the basis of believing in Christ, per 1 Tim 1:16. And the Bible says that EL is a gift of God in Rom 6:23. And the Bible says that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

So, it's possible for one who has believed who no longer believes (like the second soil in Luke 8:13) to have EL.

iow, once received, EL isn't revokable."

How does Heb 11:6 "refute" (if that's the thinking) what I posted??


Huh? No. We become God's children. John 1:12, Gal 3:26

If you do not have faith, then it is impossible to please God. Not somewhat impossible, not somewhat possible, not might be possible - it is impossible. What does God say about those He is not pleased with? Do you think God gives eternal life to someone He is not pleased with?

So if a person, cannot please God without faith, then how can they have what God gives to those who please Him?

Its impossible to have eternal life without faith.

That's why I asked the question. Because the only way to have eternal life, apart from Christ, is to be like little 'gods' (which I absolutely do not even thing is possible, but understand some religions do.......)

 

[Nathan]

The Bible tells us how: imputed or credited to the one who has faith in Christ. Rom 3 and 4.

Follow that logic now.

Is it possible to have righteousness without faith in Christ? Is there any other way?

 

[chessman]

If we had the literal eternal life of God - guess what - we would not die. Crazy, I know, but true.

Yep, its true. Famously true. Crazy as a wooden rod turning into a snake.

John 3:14-16 (NASB) As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. ​

If Eternal Life doesn't mean not perishing, then our Bibles are junk.

Are you a physicalist, believing that man is purely physical, no non-physical nature (soul or spirit)?

 

[Nathan]

Yep, its true. Famously true. Crazy as a wooden rod turning into a snake.

John 3:14-16 (NASB) As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. ​

If Eternal Life doesn't mean not perishing, then our Bibles are junk.

Are you a physicalist, believing that man is purely physical, no non-physical nature (soul or spirit)?

Hmmmm, no. I believe man has a soul.

So, was the wooden rod a snake - or was it a wooden rod? Both? At the same time?

 

[chessman]

I believe man has a soul.

Me too. So, prior to judgment, when the body of a man dies, their souls still have life (not death), right?

 

[Nathan]

Me too. So, prior to judgment, when the body of a man dies, their souls still have life (not death), right?

Think about what Paul says. To be absent from the body(physical) is to be present with the Lord(spiritual). Once we die physically, we are then given the 'outcome' of our faith - eternal life.

We see it as a time thing, but once we die we are outside of the time domain.

Yes, to your question of 'soul life'. Jesus put it this way;

Mat 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Notice the distinction of death of the body, and death of the body and the soul. The body can die without the soul dying.

For those in Christ, eternal life will be given at the judgment. Those outside of Christ, will not receive the eternal life.

This goes way off topic at this point. So I wont go there.

 

[chessman]

Disclaimer: This post has one question for you.

Think about what Paul says. To be absent from the body(physical) is to be present with the Lord(spiritual). Once we die physically, we are then given the 'outcome' of our faith - eternal life.

Oh, I've thought about it. I even posted my toughts. Paul doesn't say "once we die physically, we are given the 'outcome' of our faith. - eternal life."

Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. ​

When do we derive our benefit (our outcome), per Paul?

You might want to go back and re-read the post where you replied to me that you were not good with one liners. Or read Romans 5-6 and post the passage that leads you to your reasoning; "Once we die physically, we are then given the 'outcome' of our faith - eternal life"

For those in Christ, eternal life will be given at the judgment.

Please read Rom 6:22

This goes way off topic at this point. So I wont go there.

It's just Theology/Apologetics. And, no, it's on topic. The OP uses Rom 6 in his thread about salvation and eternal life.

 

[Nathan]

Disclaimer: This post has one question for you.


Oh, I've thought about it. I even posted my toughts. Paul doesn't say "once we die physically, we are given the 'outcome' of our faith. - eternal life."

Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. ​

When do we derive our benefit (our outcome), per Paul?

You might want to go back and re-read the post where you replied to me that you were not good with one liners. Or read Romans 5-6 and post the passage that leads you to your reasoning; "Once we die physically, we are then given the 'outcome' of our faith - eternal life"



Please read Rom 6:22


It's just Theology/Apologetics. And, no, it's on topic. The OP uses Rom 6 in his thread about salvation and eternal life.

I suppose your not understanding me. That's ok.

Here is the point. The eternal cannot inhabit the temporal. The immortal cannot be in the mortal. The seed has to die to become that which it is.

Think about it. You ever wondered why its called the 'seed' of faith? Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. We hope for eternal life and we do not see it - yet. But we 'have' it by faith.

Paul is simply saying, in Romans 6:22, that we now have been freed from sin and enslaved to God, our benefit from this is our faith(gift of God), it leads us in sanctification(process that happens here on earth), and then the outcome(once this mortal dies and is planted) is eternal life.

I am not sure how its so hard to understand that if you had eternal life, you would not die - physically or spiritually. Christ is eternal life. We cannot 'own' it. We become it - it becomes in us.

1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

If this life that God gave us is in His Son, then how do we 'own' it? How is Christ in your heart?

Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);

Jude 1:21 - keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life.

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

What is that "inheritance" that is kept in heaven? Its our eternal life. Eternal life is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading - it cannot inhabit us while we are those things. However, faith can - and it has since the beginning of time. Here and now, its all about faith. Faith = Eternal Life.

 

[FreeGrace]

Lets reason this together.

1 Corinthians 38-49
We do not have a spiritual body yet. We have a natural body. Our natural body is sown(it dies) then our spiritual body is brought to life - eternal life in the case of the believer.

Those who believe in Christ are said to be "born again" or "regenerated". What, specifically, does that refer to?

We can understand that we do not have "the eternal life" at this moment because that which is spiritual cannot be apart of the flesh.

I don't see any such limitation. It is our dead human spirit that is regenerated or born again. Why can't eternal life exist within our human spirit that has been regenerated? I see no reason.

We have to wait for our flesh to be sown before we see the eternal life of God.

We can have eternal life now, before we die. And then, we will experience eternity, which is also referred to as "eternal life".

This is what John wrote about it: John 17:3 - Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Remember these verses as well:
John 5:24 - "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life
1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life

Both Jesus and John spoke of HAVING eternal life, in the present tense.

We, in our flesh, die, with our faith, and then, we are raised eternal and given life.

I didn't know that our faith died. Where is that found in Scripture?

 

[Nathan]

Let me ask you all, who believe we actually own eternal life right now, a question about it;

Is it said we get part of eternal life right now, and part later? So if the one part we have now is eternal for the 'soul', then later we get eternal life for our new bodies?

Do we find a "partial" receiving of eternal life in the Bible?

 

[FreeGrace]

If you do not have faith, then it is impossible to please God. Not somewhat impossible, not somewhat possible, not might be possible - it is impossible. What does God say about those He is not pleased with? Do you think God gives eternal life to someone He is not pleased with?

He gives the gift of eternal life to those who believe. When they believe, according to Jesus in John 5:24 and John in 1 John 5:13.

So if a person, cannot please God without faith, then how can they have what God gives to those who please Him?

Its impossible to have eternal life without faith.

Yes, that's the means for receiving eternal life, according to Paul in 1 Tim 1:16.

 

[FreeGrace]

Follow that logic now.

Is it possible to have righteousness without faith in Christ? Is there any other way?

No.

 

[FreeGrace]

Think about what Paul says. To be absent from the body(physical) is to be present with the Lord(spiritual). Once we die physically, we are then given the 'outcome' of our faith - eternal life.

Did Jesus in John 5:24 and John in 1 John 5:13 misspeak?

For those in Christ, eternal life will be given at the judgment. Those outside of Christ, will not receive the eternal life.

Same question.

 

[Nathan]

Did Jesus in John 5:24 and John in 1 John 5:13 misspeak?


Same question.

So you have eternal life right now, and so you will never die?

 

[FreeGrace]

I suppose your not understanding me. That's ok.

Here is the point. The eternal cannot inhabit the temporal. The immortal cannot be in the mortal.

Well, that's not true. Jesus is a prime example: Deity (immortal) in humanity (mortal). And the gift of the Holy Spirit indwells all believers.

So, 2 examples.

I am not sure how its so hard to understand that if you had eternal life, you would not die - physically or spiritually.

Jesus, as full humanity and full Deity, did die physically on the cross.

What is that "inheritance" that is kept in heaven? Its our eternal life.

No, we have eternal life NOW, or Jesus and John misspoke. The inheritance in heaven is related to our eternal reward.

 

[FreeGrace]

Let me ask you all, who believe we actually own eternal life right now, a question about it;

Is it said we get part of eternal life right now, and part later? So if the one part we have now is eternal for the 'soul', then later we get eternal life for our new bodies?

The question is immaterial. The only thing that counts is what the Bible says. And both Jesus and John said that we HAVE eternal life now.

Do we find a "partial" receiving of eternal life in the Bible?

No.

 

[Nathan]

Well, that's not true. Jesus is a prime example: Deity (immortal) in humanity (mortal). And the gift of the Holy Spirit indwells all believers.

So, 2 examples.


Jesus, as full humanity and full Deity, did die physically on the cross.


No, we have eternal life NOW, or Jesus and John misspoke. The inheritance in heaven is related to our eternal reward.

Brother, your 'eternal' reward is life. I hope your not disappointing when you get there.....

Jesus would not have died had the Father not laid the sins of the world on Him. That is the only way He died - and why He died.

 

[FreeGrace]

So you have eternal life right now, and so you will never die?

I have it right now, because Jesus said those who believe HAVE eternal life, not WILL HAVE eternal life someday, or after they die.

And, as I have previousy shared, we are destined to die once (physically) and after that, the judgment. Where some will die again.