Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[chessman]

"as always", is a reference to how Paul was both living his life [at the time he wrote Philippians], and had lived his life to glorify Christ.

"As Always" is a reference to always (all time), whether alive or dead, not limited to a point up until the time he wrote Philippians. The word is consistently translated as always (all time). Even after his death, Paul was and is confident he would be and is right now exalting God. That's very practical information to have (and write about). And Paul knew that after death (after "departing and being with Christ") he would be exalting God even better than while alive since he is "with Christ". Again, very practical information.

Philippians 1:6, 21, 23-24 (NASB) For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
...
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. ...
But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.​

I am with Paul and very confident that knowing we have eternal life has the very practical effect of giving us confidence here and now that He will indeed perfect what he started.

Knowing eternal life is eternal also has the practical effect us making us steadfast and immovable in our work for the Lord. Even under persecution, imprisonment or facing death.
If it (eternal life) were merely a quality of physical life, our toil would indeed be in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:56-58 (NASB) The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord. ​

Having eternal life gives us the very practical earnest expectation and hope, that believers will not be put to shame in life or by death. Every Christian martyr knew that eternal life was way more than a 'quality of life' here and now. To them (as it is for us), the death of the body was gaining being with Jesus. That's very practical knowledge indeed.

In addition, knowing we have eternal life is practically effective for the other new believers when they are taught it as Paul did to us in his letters. I'm very blessed, practically speaking, that Paul knew his life was eternal and wrote about it in his letters.

 

[Nathan]

"As Always" is a reference to always (all time), whether alive or dead) not limited to up until the time he wrote Philippians. The word is consistently translated as always (all time). Even after his death, Paul was and is confident he would be and is right now exalting God. That's very practical information to have (and write about). And Paul knew that after death (after "departing and being with Christ") he would be exalting God even better than while alive since he is "with Christ". Again, bery practical information.

Philippians 1:6, 21, 23-24 (NASB) For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
...
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. ...
But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.​

I am with Paul and very confident that knowing we have eternal life has the very practical effect of giving us confidence here and now that He will indeed perfect what he started.

Knowing eternal life is eternal also has the practical effect us making us steadfast and immovable in our work for the Lord. Even under persecution, imprisonment or facing death.
If it (eternal life) were merely a quality of physical life, our toil would indeed be in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:56-58 (NASB) The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord. ​

Having eternal life gives us the very practical earnest expectation and hope, that believers will not be put to shame in life or by death. Every Christian martyr knew that eternal life was way more than a 'quality of life' here and now. To them (as it is for us), the death of the body was gaining being with Jesus. That's very practical knowledge indeed.

In addition, knowing we have eternal life is practically effective for the other new believers when they are taught it as Paul did to us in his letters. I'm very blessed, practically speaking, that Paul knew his life was eternal and wrote about it in his letters.

I see a strong repetition in your post. Eternal life in the possessive sense. Which, is what we have been talking about, but you repeated it a few times in this post.

Except you don't talk about it like the NT writers do. They always referenced eternal life as being in Christ, and Him being the eternal life. I'm not saying you intended to leave it out, but it does seem more like a personal possessive, rather than a Godly*(edit - as in God possessing you) possesive.

 

[Nathan]

Apply eternal life to ourselves before it is true?
Christ himself is eternal life. Everybody who has him inside of them through the Holy Spirit has eternal life in them right now. This is what eternal life looks like in a person:

"22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23gentleness, self-control" (Galatians 5:22-23 NASB)

That is the life we will get in full at the resurrection: "5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness." (Galatians 5:5 NASB)


I don't see much practical value in emphasizing the 'forever' aspect of eternal life. The important thing is eternal life is the life you live now, when you walk according to the Spirit (not when you indulge sinful fleshly desires). That's a foretaste of what is to come when we are not just perfectly righteous in a legal sense as we are now, but perfectly righteous through and through. That is the hope of righteousness that we wait patiently for "through the Spirit, by faith" (see above).

We see eternal life the same way, other than the quality/quantity, issue. I'm negating the idea that we, ourselves, are eternal outside of the life of Christ.

Meaning, in order for us to 'have' eternal life we must be in Christ. Not in a mental understanding, and then eternal life is 'imputed' on us. I'm saying because He is eternal, then so will we be.

To use an analogy. I have electricity in my house. Outlets on the wall that supply endless amounts of power. I never question the idea if there is electricity available when I use it.

However, those outlets are not the source of that power. The wires in the house aren't either. The power plant is that source. So while "I" may have electricity, it's actually provided to me. It's not something I posses.

 

[Douglas Summers]

If you look at the passage it states they have escaped, not just thought about it or understood it's possible.

Yes, they have escaped through the knowledge......not by excepting it. Verse 21- For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than, after they HAVE KNOWN IT, to TURN FROM the HOLY COMMANDMENT Delivered to them.
This is why (2 Thess. 2:10-12) The Scriptures are clear.

 

[Jim Parker]

This is what the successful Christian life looks like:

"the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23gentleness, self-control" (Galatians 5:22-23 NASB)

OK!
Thanks.
Your use of the term "successful Christian" confused me.

iakov

 

[Nathan]

Yes, they have escaped through the knowledge......not by excepting it. Verse 21- For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than, after they HAVE KNOWN IT, to TURN FROM the HOLY COMMANDMENT Delivered to them.
This is why (2 Thess. 2:10-12) The Scriptures are clear.

So can a person escape the defilement of the world other than through Christ? Do you think a person can stop being bad based on knowledge?

 

[Jim Parker]

But so many people in the church seem to have gone no further than simply knowing they're saved.
As to actually living in, and experiencing, and partaking of God? I don't see it much.

Their "knowing they are saved" might be premature.

iakov the fool

Hi Jim,The way I understand Scripture is that, Once they have been given the knowledge of how to escape condemnation by the knowledge and purpose of Christ, and they instead choose to keep their former state instead of the righteousness of the Gospel. They are worse off by knowing the truth, but deciding they would rather live under the desires of the flesh. Having a worse punishment because they refused the Gospel of God in Jesus Christ. They were never saved, just a witnessed to salvation. Even as it is today.

That's not what it says.
Is says: "...IF, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,"

The words, "have escaped" describe an accomplished fact.
It does NOT say, after they have "HEARD ABOUT HOW TO ESCAPE" the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,

It also says: "if they are "again entangled in them and overcome,".
They cannot be AGAIN entangled unless they had escaped from the entanglement. (Another way of saying they were saved.)

The scripture indicates that they WERE saved.
It is circular logic to say, "If they fell away then they weren't really saved because if they were really saved then they wouldn't fall away." Such illogic never proves anything other than the confusion of the person who attempts to reason in such a manner manner and it falls here also.

The ACTUAL words of scripture do not support your conclusion. It requires significant re-wording to support the meaning you desire.
We don't get to re-write scripture to match our theology.
We get to rewrite our theology to match scripture.

Sorry

iakov the fool

FYI: 2 Peter 2:20
KJV For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

NIV If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

NASB For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

RSV For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

 

[JLB]

"As Always" is a reference to always (all time), whether alive or dead, not limited to a point up until the time he wrote Philippians.

As always refers to the way Paul had always lived to exalt and glorify Christ.

As always refers to his past, whether last year, last week, yesterday, this morning up to the present.

You can't say my life glorifies Christ as always, if your life hasn't yet glorified Christ.

JLB

 

[chessman]

Philippians 1:20 (NASB) according to my earnest expectation and hope, that I will not be put to shame in anything, but that with all boldness, Christ will even now, as always, be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death.

As always refers to the way Paul had always lived to exalt and glorify Christ.

Nope, probably so.

"that I will not be put to shame" is a future tensed verb.

"be exalted in my body" is future tensed verb.

"Now" means: already, at present

"expectation" means: thinking forward (literally with head out-stretched), as in a runner stretching head forward for the finish line.

There are no past tensed verbs (zero) in this sentence of Paul's. Only in your interpretation do we find the way he had always lived.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/philippians/1-20.htm

 

[JLB]

Nope, probably so.

"that I will not be put to shame" is a future tensed verb.

"be exalted in my body" is future tensed verb.

"Now" means: already, at present

"expectation" means: thinking forward (literally with head out-stretched), as in a runner stretching head forward for the finish line.

There are no past tensed verbs (zero) in this sentence of Paul's. Only in your interpretation do we find the way he had always lived.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/philippians/1-20.htm

Even now: Present

as always: in the past


Here's another one, which actually corresponds to the thread topic.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4;1

• Depart from the faith: a reference to departing from faith in Christ. Future [in the latter times]
• giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons: present tense, but referring to the latter times.

JLB

 

[chessman]

I see a strong repetition in your post. Eternal life in the possessive sense

Paul says we "have" (possess) eternal life right now multiple times and in multiple ways.

Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

Romans 6:22 (LEB) But now, having been set free from sin and having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit leading to sanctification, and its end is eternal life. ​

You have/derive (presently in the Greek):
1. Resulting sanctification
2. eternal life

It could not be said any clearer.

He knows, as do I, that the eternal life we have is in Christ (derived in Him). Thus he can be confident that we truly, truly have it. But in this verse, he didn't mention it directly.

But I'm not thinking nor have I said that our eternal life is in anything other than Christ.

 

[Nathan]

Paul says we "have" (possess) eternal life right now multiple times and in multiple ways.

Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

Romans 6:22 (LEB) But now, having been set free from sin and having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit leading to sanctification, and its end is eternal life. ​

You have/derive (presently in the Greek):
1. Resulting sanctification
2. eternal life

It could not be said any clearer.

He knows, as do I, that the eternal life we have is in Christ (derived in Him). Thus he can be confident that we truly, truly have it. But in this verse, he didn't mention it directly.

But I'm not thinking nor have I said that our eternal life is in anything other than Christ.

You forgot "it's end".

 

[chessman]

as always: in the past

Incorrect.
It's an adjective, not a verb. If he would have said 'always in the past' he would have communicated just that. All time past. But he didn't communicate in this sentence in any way but present and future.

Philippians 1:20 (NASB) according to my earnest expectation and hope, that I will not be put to shame in anything, but that with all boldness, Christ will even now, as always, be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. ​

Was Christ being exalted in him when he was persecuting the Christians?

Here's another one, which actually corresponds to the thread topic.

What you posted is not even a whole sentence. It's a snip from Paul's long sentence within which he explained exactly what he meant by "departure from the faith"

1 Timothy 4:2-5 (LEB) ... by the hypocrisy of liars, who are seared in their own conscience, who forbid marrying and insist on abstaining from foods that God created for sharing in with thankfulness by those who believe and who know the truth, because everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.​

 

[Nathan]

Paul says we "have" (possess) eternal life right now multiple times and in multiple ways.

Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

Romans 6:22 (LEB) But now, having been set free from sin and having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit leading to sanctification, and its end is eternal life. ​

You have/derive (presently in the Greek):
1. Resulting sanctification
2. eternal life

It could not be said any clearer.

He knows, as do I, that the eternal life we have is in Christ (derived in Him). Thus he can be confident that we truly, truly have it. But in this verse, he didn't mention it directly.

But I'm not thinking nor have I said that our eternal life is in anything other than Christ.

Curious question. How does faith fit in to your equation above? Does Paul speak of it (indirectly) in the verse you quote?

 

[Nathan]

chessman
One more question on your verse.

How do you view sanctification? And 'the fruit' Paul speaks of?

I guess that's actually two questions.

 

[Nathan]

Paul says we "have" (possess) eternal life right now multiple times and in multiple ways.

Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

Romans 6:22 (LEB) But now, having been set free from sin and having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit leading to sanctification, and its end is eternal life. ​

You have/derive (presently in the Greek):
1. Resulting sanctification
2. eternal life

It could not be said any clearer.

He knows, as do I, that the eternal life we have is in Christ (derived in Him). Thus he can be confident that we truly, truly have it. But in this verse, he didn't mention it directly.

But I'm not thinking nor have I said that our eternal life is in anything other than Christ.

Ok, I've read this through a bunch of times now and I'm stumped.

Your saying that Paul says "we have" in regards to eternal life, in the verse you quote, when he directly talks about fruit is what we posses.

Are you saying this fruit is eternal life?

I think you missed the other point too. Because you just said it again. "Our" eternal life. Not Christ eternal life, which it is, not ours.

That's my point. It's not our eternal life, it's Gods.


1 John 1:2
the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us--

 

[Nathan]

I'm not sure if I've passed over a post that mentions this, but if it hasn't been posted yet, maybe we can dig deeper into what eternal life is by looking at what Jesus said.

John 17:3 (ESV)
And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

Based on that statement, do we have the fullness of eternal life? Can anyone here state they know God in fullness?

Or would we say that we know in part now, but then(in eternity) we will know fully?

 

[Jim Parker]

You forgot "it's end".

The statement by Chesman

Paul says we "have" (possess) eternal life right now multiple times and in multiple ways.

Is false.

It is followed by allegedly supporting scripture:
(1) Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
(2) Romans 6:22 (LEB) But now, having been set free from sin and having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit leading to sanctification, and its end is eternal life.

The statement is false, based on those two translations, because neither of them states that eternal life is a present possession of the believer. It relates a step-by-step process of being set free from sin and enslaved to God which leads to the next stage of having fruit which, in turn, leads to sanctification which eventually ends in eternal life.

The first rendering of the verse says that the benefit results in an outcome which is eternal life. It does not say that result is a present reality.

the second rendering of the verse states that the "end" is eternal life. The word "end" is from the Greek "TELOS." (τέλος)
The word refers to a goal, an objective, an end result.

The previous verse provides contrast of two paths and clarity for the meaning of the word translated "end."

Rom 6:21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end (τέλος) of those things is death.
In other words, the end result of those things in verse 21 is death while the end result of the things in verse 22 is eternal life.

In those two verses, Paul is not talking about having (possessing) eternal life. He was saying that one way of life leads to one result (death) and the other way of life leads to an entirely different result. (Eternal life.)

Another example of the use of the word "end" (telos) is: 1Co 1:4-8 I give thanks to God always for you because of the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus,that in every way you were enriched in him with all speech and all knowledge - even as the testimony to Christ was confirmed among you--so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ; who will sustain you to the end (telos), guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is God

The error in interpretation is an example of another exegetical error; "proof-texting." In this case, verse 22 was separated from verse 21 and made to stand alone without any context. Then, an inappropriate context was applied to the verse in order to make it appear to mean something that had absolutely nothing to do with the message of the passage. The end result (telos ) is that the verse was inappropriately used to support a doctrine with which the passage had absolutely no connection.

Pontificatur hat on.

When picking verses, we need to always be mindful of a couple of facts:
(1) There were no chapter and verse numbers in the original text.
(2) The numbers are there for the sole purpose of assisting in finding a passage.
(3) The numbers have absolutely nothing to do with the organization of the original thought as it was written.
(4) The numbers sometimes inappropriate separate a thought and create the appearance of disconnecting two parts of one thought.

When choosing a verse as support for a statement, make sure that the entire section gets read to make sure that the writer was actually writing about what you think the verse means.

OK.
There will be a test on Friday.

Pontificatur hat off.


iakov the fool

 

[Douglas Summers]

So can a person escape the defilement of the world other than through Christ? Do you think a person can stop being bad based on knowledge?

They have the choice or to react to the Holy Word of God. They can hear, but if the word does not draw them to Christ, then they have no excuse. For without Christ, there is no way to be escape from the wrath of God coming upon all men and souls on Judgment day. The visible church is full of bench warmers that have heard the Gospel, but never accepted Christ. They put their security in Tithing, going to church or works, and living their life as they want to. They say, our prays are with you, but they never pray. They are self willed with the doctrines of men. and wallow in the mire that they have been instructed on how to escape from.

 

[Jim Parker]

So can a person escape the defilement of the world other than through Christ? Do you think a person can stop being bad based on knowledge?

Good questions.
(1) So can a person escape the defilement of the world other than through Christ?
No. Everyone in the world is already defiled. We have already sinned and the wages of our sin is death. (Ro 6:23)
(2) Do you think a person can stop being bad based on knowledge?
That would require a huge amount of discipline.
But, for argument's sake, suppose there was a person who was so highly disciplined (USMC?) that he trained himself not to sin.
Did he start in that condition or did he have to work to achieve it? (And, for argument's sake, we are assuming that he could achieve it.)
At any time prior to the moment he attained the state of sinlessness, did he ever sin?
even once?
yes?
Sorry. No cigar.

On the other hand............that state of sinlessness is what we are all to strive for.
But it can't be achieved only by exerting our will power, we must have Godly love. It must be Godly love because Godly love is 100% "other-focused." Godly love seeks to provide everything that the other needs even if the lover has to go without and without any consideration as to whether the other will return the love. Godly love flows to friends and enemies alike without distinction. It is best demonstrated in that God so loved the world that Christ gave His life so that all of mankind, who were mostly God's enemies, could have life.

No one can do that without the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

my 2 kopecks

iakov the fool