Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[Nathan]

You guys carry on. I'm through. Take care.

2 Peter 1:5-9 (NASB) Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. ​

That's too bad. Interesting you quote this verse - it shows the very nature of sanctification. Those things that Peter lists are fruits of the Spirit. Those things show the evidence of God working in us, purifying us - our sanctification process.

If you bring this back around, to the beginning, it is proof that we do not posses eternal life, but that eternal life possess us. It is His life in us that bears this fruit, and His life in us that will sustain us throughout eternity. That is why we can have such faith in God to know that when our time on earth is done, we will be given our new bodies and continue to live in Christ.

 

[Nathan]

Nathan said: ↑
You are still calling out our flesh as its own entity, as something that can make decisions for us and itself. Very Gnostic in its essence.

chessman

I see your put off by this statement, as it seems, alone. I hope you do not take the statement out of its context, and think it means something other than what I had intended it to.

Gnostic beliefs vary, similarly to Christianity, but the core(their doctrine) is based in the separation, complete separation, of man and flesh.
Here is a quote; from http://gnosis.org/gnintro.htm

Human nature mirrors the duality found in the world: in part it was made by the false creator God and in part it consists of the light of the True God. Humankind contains a perishable physical and psychic component, as well as a spiritual component which is a fragment of the divine essence. This latter part is often symbolically referred to as the “divine spark”. The recognition of this dual nature of the world and of the human being has earned the Gnostic tradition the epithet of “dualist”.

God, on the other hand, formed man and breathed into him the breath of life - in this combination man became a living being. You separate one from the other and man is no longer a human being. Gnostic beliefs try to separate this combination through 'knowledge'. And while it seems reasonable, the fact is, its not.

In context, I was stating that your statement - not yourself - is Gnostic in nature, in its essence. They even recognize this themselves, as being "dualist".

There are many ways this Gnostic doctrine has worked its way into being seen as church doctrine. The danger of it is that it feeds on the most basic of human nature, and what God created us to do, which is seek truth. So Gnosticism lines itself up with Christianity much more than most other false doctrines. They even claim that Christ is the one that saves.

Gnostics do not look to salvation from sin (original or other), but rather from the ignorance of which sin is a consequence. Ignorance -- whereby is meant ignorance of spiritual realities -- is dispelled only by Gnosis, and the decisive revelation of Gnosis is brought by the Messengers of Light, especially by Christ, the Logos of the True God. It is not by His suffering and death but by His life of teaching and His establishing of mysteries that Christ has performed His work of salvation.

The Gnostic concept of salvation, like other Gnostic concepts, is a subtle one. On the one hand, Gnostic salvation may easily be mistaken for an unmediated individual experience, a sort of spiritual do-it-yourself project. Gnostics hold that the potential for Gnosis, and thus, of salvation is present in every man and woman, and that salvation is not vicarious but individual. At the same time, they also acknowledge that Gnosis and salvation can be, indeed must be, stimulated and facilitated in order to effectively arise within consciousness. This stimulation is supplied by Messengers of Light who, in addition to their teachings, establish salvific mysteries (sacraments) which can be administered by apostles of the Messengers and their successors.

One needs also remember that knowledge of our true nature -- as well as other associated realizations -- are withheld from us by our very condition of earthly existence. The True God of transcendence is unknown in this world, in fact He is often called the Unknown Father. It is thus obvious that revelation from on High is needed to bring about salvation. The indwelling spark must be awakened from its terrestrial slumber by the saving knowledge that comes “from without”.

Do you see any parallels here yet? (hint - last sentence)

Gnostics believe that 'eternal life' is in them, no doubt given by God, and having to be 'awakened' by God - but they see it as the eternalness of life, and not that we are supplied eternal life through/in Christ. They see it as something we posses.

So again, don't think I am calling you a Gnostic. I am simply stating that what you are describing is very much Gnostic in nature.

 

[Jim Parker]

If our flesh was being sanctified, wouldn't it be getting "better", not worse? In other words, we know sanctification is purification. If our flesh was being purified, then they would be healing - not decaying. Sin causes death. Also, it is only God who can sanctify, so if our flesh was being sanctified, that would mean He would have to be at work in our flesh.

We have all sinned. Therefore, our flesh will die and it will decay.
But Jesus redeemed us from death and corruption (decay) by His death and resurrection and we will all be raised immortal and incorruptible. (1Cor 15:52ff)
IN THE MEAN TIME, by the Spirit, we put to death the deeds of the flesh. (Rom 8:13) We "purify" the flesh by not submitting to its lusts but, rather, doing good works in accordance with the fruit of the spirit.
We are told to "...put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts." (Rom 13:14)

The Spirit of God lives in us, not in our soul and not in our flesh. In us. In our hearts.

That is confusing. Either the heart is "flesh" (it's a piece of meat) or it's figuratively the soul.

Do you believe we are in Heaven with God right now? Do you believe that this is Heaven here on Earth?

The Church is, in fact, the kingdom of God manifest on the earth today.
If we are the body of Christ (and we are 1Co 12:27) then Christ is present on the earth right now in the Church.
And if Christ is reigning right now (and He is Mat 28:18) then the King is present on earth in His kingdom right now.
His Kingdom has come, just not in its fullness when all things will be renewed (Rev 21:5) and God is all and in all. (1Co 15:28)

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

So Gnosticism lines itself up with Christianity much more than most other false doctrines. They even claim that Christ is the one that saves.

The only way that Gnosticism "lined up" with Christianity was when some of them tried to present Jesus as demiurge and a teacher of secret knowledge by which man could be freed from the prison of the body.

Gnosticism infected some strands of Christianity the way a virus infects a healthy body. The early church consistently rejected it.

Gnosticism conceived of the soul as eternal and immortal and that the body was, in essence, the prison of the soul. The "real person" was the soul and salvation was the release of the soul from the body without being reincarnated in another one. That is why the Greek philosophers at the Aeropagus thought that Paul was a babbling fool for talking about the resurrection of the body.

iakov the fool

 

[FreeGrace]

From a number of pages ago:

Since you have deliberately and consistently rejected the warnings to not lead little one's who believe in Christ into stumbling you're on your own from here.

I've never rejected any warning to 'not lead little ones who believe in Christ'. So the charge is false.

You have nothing left to look forward to but the wrath of God reserved for the enemies of God:

"26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. " (Hebrews 10:26-27 NASB)

It seems clear that this verse has been completely ripped out of its context and misapplied. It was directed to Jewish believers who either had returned to animal sacrifice or were considering doing so, in order to avoid persecution from the orthodox Jews.

As to the "warning" about what I have "left to look forward to", I have much to look forward to. Not only do I look forward to being in the presence of God for eternity, but I'm looking forward to reigning with Christ (2 Tim 2:12) as a reward for enduring in the faith.

At this point you would do well to at least go back to the traditional OSAS stance where the 'believer' who stops believing never really believed to begin with.

No, I wouldn't "do well" to embrace that bit of reformed doctrine, because it's simply not true. Jesus made clear that some will "believe for a while" and then fall away (Luke 8:13). There is no way to understand this other than that some believers CAN and DO fall away from the faith. There is a word for that: apostates.

At least your're safe from the Judgment of leading a believer into unbelief with that stance.

No one is "safe from the Judgment" since everyone will be judged. Unbelievers will be judged according to their deeds, which will determine the level of "toleration" (Matt 10:15, 11;22, 24, Luke 10:12,14) in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15), being cast into it because of not having eternal life.

Even believers will face judgment; at the Bema (2 Cor 5:10). In this case, judgment will determine rewards or not in eternity.

 

[FreeGrace]

New creations don't get to stay new creations if they turn away from the Lord.

Is there a verse that supports this claim? All new creations (2 Cor 5:17) have been born again of imperishable seed (1 Pet 1:23).

So all who are new creations remain new creations.

 

[JLB]

We are to continue, remain, abide in the truth that Jesus Christ taught.

He who remains, abides, and continues in Christ's teaching, has both the Son and the Father.

• Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

• Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9 KJV

• Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9 NASB

• every one who is transgressing, and is not remaining in the teaching of the Christ, hath not God; he who is remaining in the teaching of the Christ, this one hath both the Father and the Son; 2 John 1:9 YLT

• 4 I rejoiced greatly that I have found some of your children walking in truth, as we received commandment from the Father. 5 And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another. 6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it. 2 John 1:4-6

• 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:11-12

• 24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 1 John 2:24

If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

We are to continue, remain, abide in the truth that Jesus Christ taught.

He who remains, abides, and continues in Christ's teaching, has both the Son and the Father.

• Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

• Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9 KJV

• Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9 NASB

• every one who is transgressing, and is not remaining in the teaching of the Christ, hath not God; he who is remaining in the teaching of the Christ, this one hath both the Father and the Son; 2 John 1:9 YLT

• 4 I rejoiced greatly that I have found some of your children walking in truth, as we received commandment from the Father. 5 And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another. 6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it. 2 John 1:4-6

• 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:11-12

• 24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 1 John 2:24

If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son.

And we need to remember these Scriptures:

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
This shows that when one believes, they HAVE eternal life.

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
This shows that those who have received eternal life will never perish.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom 11:29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
These verses show that the gifts of God, one being eternal life, are irrevocable.

Eph 1:13-14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession — to the praise of his glory.
These verses show that from "having believed" (aorist tense - point in time) one is sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit which GUARANTEES our inheritance of those who are God's possession.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
This verse shows that even grieving the Holy Spirit doesn't undo the sealing, which is for the day of redemption.

1 Peter 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
This verse shows that those who have been born again, being of imperishable seed, cannot perish.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

From a number of pages ago:

I've never rejected any warning to 'not lead little ones who believe in Christ'. So the charge is false.


It seems clear that this verse has been completely ripped out of its context and misapplied. It was directed to Jewish believers who either had returned to animal sacrifice or were considering doing so, in order to avoid persecution from the orthodox Jews.

As to the "warning" about what I have "left to look forward to", I have much to look forward to. Not only do I look forward to being in the presence of God for eternity, but I'm looking forward to reigning with Christ (2 Tim 2:12) as a reward for enduring in the faith.


No, I wouldn't "do well" to embrace that bit of reformed doctrine, because it's simply not true. Jesus made clear that some will "believe for a while" and then fall away (Luke 8:13). There is no way to understand this other than that some believers CAN and DO fall away from the faith. There is a word for that: apostates.


No one is "safe from the Judgment" since everyone will be judged. Unbelievers will be judged according to their deeds, which will determine the level of "toleration" (Matt 10:15, 11;22, 24, Luke 10:12,14) in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15), being cast into it because of not having eternal life.

Even believers will face judgment; at the Bema (2 Cor 5:10). In this case, judgment will determine rewards or not in eternity.

The 'little ones who believes in Me (Jesus)' who stumble because of 'Free Grace' doctrine will go to hell unless they cast off the stumbling block of Free Grace belief and practice.

"6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!

8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB)

I pity the person through whom the stumbling block comes that causes little ones who believe in Jesus to stumble so as to go to the fiery, eternal hell.

"17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are." (1 Corinthians 3:17 NASB)

 

[FreeGrace]

The 'little ones who believes in Me (Jesus)' who stumble because of 'Free Grace' doctrine

No one, including "the little ones" will ever stumble because of free grace doctrine.

will go to hell unless they cast off the stumbling block of Free Grace belief and practice.

The Bible never says anything about littles ones going to hell. Unless one makes a huge leap and assumes that "to stumble" means going to hell. But the fact is, the Bible doesn't say what your claim is.

"6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!

8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB)

I pity the person through whom the stumbling block comes that causes little ones who believe in Jesus to stumble so as to go to the fiery, eternal hell.

The ones to pity are those who have never received the free gift of eternal life, by which they will never perish.

 

[JLB]

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
This shows that when one believes, they HAVE eternal life.

These verses say the same thing, as this same John records both verse's.

• “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

• Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

Hears my word is a present tense continual requirement that continues, which John says that word must abide, remain, continue in the person for them to have [present tense] both the Father and the Son.

• Whoever does not abide in the doctrine, teaching, word of Christ does not have God.

Here is the context for John 5:24:

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29


Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life.
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Bible never says anything about littles ones going to hell. Unless one makes a huge leap and assumes that "to stumble" means going to hell. But the fact is, the Bible doesn't say what your claim is.

The Bible says it is better for little ones who believe in Christ to cut off the cause of stumbling and enter life than it is to keep it and go to hell instead:

"8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire." (Matthew 18:8 NASB)

 

[FreeGrace]

These verses say the same thing, as this same John records both verse's.

• “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

• Point being; WHEN one believes, one HAS eternal life. Which is why John 10:28 is instructive. Those Jesus GIVES eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. In plain language.

iow, the ONLY requirement for never perishing is to have received the gift of eternal life. Wh

Which makes perfect sense, since Paul said that God's gifts are irrevocable and described eternal life as a gift of God.

And Peter said that believers have been born again of imperishable seed.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

Abiding is about fellowship, not relationship. Since we are born again as children of God, we have His DNA in us (the Holy Spirit), who is a deposit which GUARANTEES the day of redemption (Eph 1:13,14).

Hears my word is a present tense continual requirement that continues, which John says that word must abide, remain, continue in the person for them to have [present tense] both the Father and the Son.

The Greek present tense NEVER means continuous action til the end of one's life, as it seems is being suggested.

It simply means currently. At this moment.

It's an abuse of the present tense to claim anything beyond the idea of "currently".

Whoever does not abide in the doctrine, teaching, word of Christ does not have God.

They sure don't. No fellowship at all. How can any believer grow up in their salvation without being in fellowship with the Lord? Not possible.

Here is the context for John 5:24:

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29

The point of v.24 is very plain language. Those who believe HAVE eternal life. Meaning, they HAVE it WHEN they believe.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

So, is this a different "gospel" than what the Bible preaches? That one must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life, as John 3:16 says? So now it's "having done good" for eternal life? Really?

those who have done good, to the resurrection of life.
those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
JLB

I believe Paul would describe this as a "different gospel", as he did in 2 Cor 11:4 - For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough

or

Gal 1:6 - I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel

John 3:16 is the gospel of the Bible; believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will not perish, but have eternal life.

That is my gospel.

 

[FreeGrace]

The Bible says it is better for little ones who believe in Christ to cut off the cause of stumbling and enter life than it is to keep it and go to hell instead:

"8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire." (Matthew 18:8 NASB)

No. v.8 isn't about the "little ones", as is being surmised. Jesus was clear at the beginning of v.8: IF YOUR hand.

 

[chessman]

The Bible says it is better for little ones who believe in Christ to cut off the cause of stumbling and enter life than it is to keep it and go to hell instead:

The cause of stumbling is not the little ones.

Matthew 18:7 Woe to the world because of causes for stumbling, for it is a necessity that causes for stumbling come; nevertheless, woe to the person through whom the cause for stumbling comes.​

The stumbling blocks are woefully of the world. The little one IS (not might be, but IS) the greatest in the kingdom of Heaven. Plain as day.

Matthew 18:4 Therefore whoever humbles himself like this child, this person is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven,
​

 

[JLB]

Point being; WHEN one believes, one HAS eternal life. Which is why John 10:28 is instructive. Those Jesus GIVES eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. In plain language.

I quoted John 5:24-29 and 2 John 1:9, which say they same thing.

You respond to that post, without ever addressing the language of the scripture, then you switch to another opinion and tag that with a scripture reference that is incomplete.

If you quote my post, then address what the scripture and the point I make in my post, and I will do the same.

I'm not going to play "scriptural whack a mole" with you.


I wrote out the scripture, with the context for all to see and study the actual words Jesus used.


Here it is again:

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24


These verses say the same thing, as this same John records both verse's.

• “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

• Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

Hears my word is a present tense continual requirement that continues, which John says that word must abide, remain, continue in the person for them to have [present tense] both the Father and the Son.

• Whoever does not abide in the doctrine, teaching, word of Christ does not have God.

Here is the context for John 5:24:

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29


Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who havedone good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life.
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

You have a choice to post your opinion, then "tag" your opinion which often leaves out parts of the verse or ignores the context.


I also have a choice to no longer respond to your post's that only state your opinion, with no actual scripture.




JLB

 

[JLB]

The point of v.24 is very plain language. Those who believe HAVE eternal life. Meaning, they HAVE it WHEN they believe.

You left out part of the verse.

Stating your opinion against the scripture, and ignoring the actual language is very dishonest.

If you want me to engage in a dialog or conversation, then use scripture, and refer to the language of the scripture.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

John says that this word we hear, must abide in us for us to have God.

• Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.

We must first have the word or teaching from Christ, and it must remain, or continue in present tense status for us to have God in the present tense.

• Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

Hears my word is a present tense continual requirement that continues, which John says that word must abide, remain, continue in the person for them to have [present tense] both the Father and the Son.

• Whoever does not abide in the doctrine, teaching, word of Christ does not have God.

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I quoted John 5:24-29 and 2 John 1:9, which say they same thing.

Well, let's take a look at them and see if they say the same thing.
John 5:24-29
24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Now for 2 John 1:9
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

How can 1 verse "say the same thing" as 6 verses? I don't see how. Maybe you meant "mean the same thing" or "speaks of the same subject".

But one thing is quite sure about 2 John 1:9. It has nothing to do with loss of salvation, or conditional security. In fact, it CAN'T.

Why, some may ask? Because of the plain language of Scripture which describes eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23 and that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29. AND the fact that Paul never bothered to exclude the gift of eternal life from God's gifts that are irrevocable.

Further, more plain language in Eph 1:13-14 that says that 'having believed' (point in time initial faith) the person is sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit as a deposit, a guarantee for the day of redemption. And Eph 4:30 says that even those who GRIEVE the Holy Spirit are sealed for the day of redemption.

You respond to that post, without ever addressing the language of the scripture, then you switch to another opinion and tag that with a scripture reference that is incomplete.

I always address the language of the Scripture, so this charge is untrue. Second, if any of Scripture references don't match my opinion, then all that one must do is show HOW so. So, please proceed with evidence. Throwing empty claims proves nothing.

If you quote my post, then address what the scripture and the point I make in my post, and I will do the same.

I've been doing that. And in my response to your post here. Right now. I pointed out that 2 John 1:9 cannot be about conditional security, and for the REASONS why it can't.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

What I clearly see in PLAIN LANGUAGE is that the one who hears and believes HAS eternal life. Are you reading something different?

These verses say the same thing, as this same John records both verse's.

• “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

• Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

Hears my word is a present tense continual requirement that continues, which John says that word must abide, remain, continue in the person for them to have [present tense] both the Father and the Son.

Your opinion of the present tense in the Greek isn't even close to what Greek grammar texts say about it.

those who have done good, to the resurrection of life.
those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Please define what is meant by "done good" and "done evil". Then we'll know if we're on the same page or not.

Until that is done, there can be no advancement of any discussion.

You have a choice to post your opinion, then "tag" your opinion which often leaves out parts of the verse or ignores the context.

And what you've NOT DONE is to provide any kind of explanation of HOW that changes the meaning of what I do quote. Just throwing a claim without any explanation or evidence is not helpful.

I also have a choice to no longer respond to your post's that only state your opinion, with no actual scripture.
JLB

No one is required to respond to anyone's posts, and for any reason. But your claim that my posts are "with no actual Scripture" is totally false.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The cause of stumbling is not the little ones.

I didn't say they were. The little ones who believe in Jesus are the ones being caused to stumble: "6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble" (Matthew 18:6 NASB bold mine).

Other people are the ones causing the stumbling: "6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble" (Matthew 18:6 NASB bold mine). The 'whoever' is the hand, or foot, or eye that causes the stumbling and are the body part that if retained by the little ones who believe in Jesus will cause them to go whole into the eternal, fiery hell. But if they get rid of the 'whoever' that causes the stumbling they will go minus those metaphorical body parts into life. But OSAS insists that believers can never ever under any conditions whatsoever go to hell. Jesus made it very clear that they can.

We should not be surprised that so many leaders in the church miss this essential truth that Jesus plainly teaches. The history of God's people is one of not being able to see and understand the plain words of God right under their noses. It took Luther's reformation to make the church see Romans 1:17. But now it seems that even us Protestants are not able to 'see' the plain words of scripture right under our noses. Time for another Reformation. But I think this time the church is out of chances.

I'm of the opinion that OSAS (Hyper-grace/ Free Grace OSAS particularly) is the instrument responsible for the undoing of the church and the great falling away in these last days prior to the return of Christ. But Christ has promised to "gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will throw them into the furnace of fire" (Matthew 13:41-42 NASB) when he gets here. Let us believers continue in our faith and the pursuit of righteous living and not be deceived by the stumbling block of OSAS so we will not be included with those who are destroyed at His coming. We've been warned.

 

[FreeGrace]

I pointed out is FACT:
"The point of v.24 is very plain language. Those who believe HAVE eternal life. Meaning, they HAVE it WHEN they believe."

You left out part of the verse.

Let me ask this question; is my statement true or false? Simple question. Please answer.

If it's true, then your point is irrelevant. If it's false, then please explain HOW and WHY it's false by leaving out "part of the verse".

Until that is done, none of your points/opinions mean anything.

Stating your opinion against the scripture, and ignoring the actual language is very dishonest.

How dishonest to claim that quoting ANY PART of any verse is ignoring actual language!