Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[JLB]

OK, and if I’m understanding you here those given to Jesus was limited to the twelve, and only they are written in the book of life?

No sir, you just mixed together two points I made from the last post.

I thought I asked this, but do you think 1 Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world, refers to the overcoming necessary to be added to the book of life,

Overcome is the requirement to remain in the book of life.

Since in Rev 3:5 Jesus says He will not erase the names of those that overcame I don’t believe so.

"Overcame" past tense is not mentioned in Revelation 3:5, if it was, you may have a valid point.

5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5


Again, based on the actual language being in the scripture, do you believe it is possible for a person for did not overcome, to be blotted out of the book of life?



JLB

 

[Eugene]

Again, based on the actual language being in the scripture, do you believe it is possible for a person for did not overcome, to be blotted out of the book of life?

Dear Brother JLB, I do not believe it is us that overcomes other than through receiving Jesus as our Savior, and thus the price Jesus paid ensures our everlasting life because of God's love for us who He foreknew.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life (Not conditional life), and this life is in his Son.

Now I do believe there is cause to keep the faith as it were, live a life becoming of the grace given, and remain so loving of the mercy bestowed on us, and that is to be in the very bride of Christ. We read in:
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness (or righteous deeds) of saints.

Thank you for your time in Jesus' name.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No it doesn't.

Please show me EXACTLY where Paul excluded the gift of eternal life from irrevocable gifts anywhere in Rom 11.

That's not even the argument.

In context we see that the gifts and calling being irrevocable has nothing to do with the gift of eternal life being given and received and then never being able to be taken away from that person. Paul himself explains right in the passage that what it means is the Israelites still get called and gifted to this very day despite the fact that Israel as a nation rejected their Messiah. And he says God does that because of the Patriarchs (to whom he made the promises). Paul points out that he himself being saved is proof that the gifts and calling have not been revoked from Israel. Paul says NOTHING in the passage about a person being saved, falling into unbelief, but still being saved. NOTHING. You decided that vs. 29, un-rightly cut out of the passage, means that despite what Paul himself says it means.

You insist on taking Romans 11:29 NASB completely out of context and saying it stands on it's own and interprets itself, but then in the case of 2 Timothy 2:12 NASB ("If we deny Him, He also will deny us") now suddenly one is not allowed to take something out of it's immediate context (not that it is) and use it on it's own apart from it's context. That's not right.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How "competent" is One who saves people, but then loses them because of what they do? That doesn't look very competent.

See, I told you didn't know the argument.
People don't become ex-believers because of some kind of failure on Christ's part.
They become ex-believers because they have chosen to reject the One who can keep them!
This is a whole new paradigm of thinking that you know nothing about because you are programmed by OSAS doctrine to not be able to see anything else but what OSAS doctrine says is true.

The sign of spiritual maturity is to be able to think other thoughts besides your own. That doesn't mean you have to agree with what's outside of your doctrinal box. It means you are mature enough to at least hear them out with an open heart and open mind. That's how you learn. But you will learn nothing if you instantly and automatically exclude any thoughts or ideas that aren't already included in your own narrow understanding.

 

[JLB]

Dear Brother JLB, I do not believe it is us that overcomes other than through receiving Jesus as our Savior, and thus the price Jesus paid ensures our everlasting life because of God's love for us who He foreknew.

Eugene, you just said: Since in Rev 3:5 Jesus says He will not erase the names of those that overcame I don’t believe so.

Now you are saying it is not us who overcomes?

How can a person overcome if they stop believing and having faith in Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God for salvation?

Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:5



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

From the context, "Denial of Christ" is not possible today. Like blasphemy, You'd have to have been physically with Jesus in order to "deny" Christ Jesus.

Everybody who rejects the testimony of the Holy Spirit blasphemes the Holy Spirit in effect calling Him a lying spirit of the devil:

"It is the Spirit who testifies... 10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son." (1 John 5:6,10 NASB bold mine)

The Pharisees called the Holy Spirit a lying worker of the devil. Everybody who denies Christ is calling the Holy Spirit a lying spirit of the devil.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Peter denied (ἀρνέομαι) Jesus three times, and yet the Lord restored him to fellowship, to a position as Apostle, and to service in the Church.

God surely takes the reason why someone denies Jesus and mitigates his judgment against them accordingly. Peter was scared. He reacted. He didn't contrive in his heart beforehand that he was not going to believe in Jesus anymore and stop following him. If he had done that Jesus may well not have even bothered to check back in with him and let him become hardened in his denial. But as it is, he just got scared and stupid like we sometimes do and all it took was a forgiving, loving Jesus to bring him back to a confession of the love he still had for Jesus.

Judas, on the other hand, had malice aforethought. He knew exactly what he wanted to do ahead of time and purposely carried it out according to plan. It was willing, thought out, planned, and purposeful. He deserved exactly the condemnation he got.

 

[chessman]

The Pharisees called the Holy Spirit a lying worker of the devil. Everybody who denies Christ is calling the Holy Spirit a lying spirit of the devil.

Oh??? So the Pharisees calling the Holy Spirit a lying worker of the Devil is just one example of others denying Christ but God's not revoking Israel's calling and gifts is NOT an example of how all God's gifts are irrevocable. Got it. Thanks.

Is there a list somewhere you've made of what statements about God are specific and which are examples of universal Truth?

 

[Nathan]

God surely takes the reason why someone denies Jesus and mitigates his judgment against them accordingly. Peter was scared. He reacted. He didn't contrive in his heart beforehand that he was not going to believe in Jesus anymore and stop following him. If he had done that Jesus may well not have even bothered to check back in with him and let him become hardened in his denial. But as it is, he just got scared and stupid like we sometimes do and all it took was a forgiving, loving Jesus to bring him back to a confession of the love he still had for Jesus.

Judas, on the other hand, had malice aforethought. He knew exactly what he wanted to do ahead of time and purposely carried it out according to plan. It was willing, thought out, planned, and purposeful. He deserved exactly the condemnation he got.

Your post provoked some thoughts for me.

I don't think it's just a matter of malice forethought with premeditated sin. I think it's also a condition of repentance not being a consideration.

I would venture to say we all have prethought about some of the sins we committed, even some with malice. I know David did. Repentance is a matter of the heart when confronted with sin.

When we deny repentance, deny forgiveness - it is a denial of Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Oh??? So the Pharisees calling the Holy Spirit a lying worker of the Devil is just one example of others denying Christ but God's not revoking Israel's calling and gifts is NOT an example of how all God's gifts are irrevocable. Got it. Thanks.

Is there a list somewhere you've made of what statements about God are specific and which are examples of universal Truth?

You got nothing.

 

[Eugene]

Eugene, you just said: Since in Rev 3:5 Jesus says He will not erase the names of those that overcame I don’t believe so.
Now you are saying it is not us who overcomes?
How can a person overcome if they stop believing and having faith in Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God for salvation?
Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:5

Brother, with my life I can't even understand having been forgiven, but I believe it, and in Christ we are complete, and yet it is His work in us that gives increase.

I don't know if the following scripture proves anything to anyone else, but I find peace in them.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

We come to imputed righteousness in Rom 4:24-25 if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[FreeGrace]

Death is the separation of the person from God - by your own definition(which I believe is correct).

That's just one of the definitions; spiritual death. I gave others as well.

And yet you claim that a person who once believed, and then separates himself from God, will not end up with that same spiritual death?

Can any child undo their own birth from their own parents? No. Impossible. The same applies in the spiritual realm. Once born physically, one's parents REMAIN one's parents. Can't be undone. All that can be done is separation of fellowship. The relationship remains INTACT.

Is separation not separation?

Yes, but 'death' includes a number of different meanings and uses, as I explained.

If a person is separated from Christ, then are they not in that state of spiritual death?

That separation involves only fellowship. It cannot refer to relationship for the reasons already explained.

 

[FreeGrace]

Peter denied (ἀρνέομαι) Jesus three times, and yet the Lord restored him to fellowship, to a position as Apostle, and to service in the Church.

Exactly!!

 

[FreeGrace]

Re. Romans 11:29 I said, 'OK But that doesn't mean the person who falls into unbelief is going to share in the gifts.'

This suggests that this irrevocable gift is revoked by "falling into unbelief". That is contradictory.

Re. John 5:24 Those who hear his word and believe him who sent Jesus do not fall into unbelief. John 10:28-29

There is nothing in John 5:24 that says this. And neither in John 10:28-29. In fact, the ONLY CONDITION for never perishing is to receive the gift of eternal life. It's in plain language.

We are talking about those who do fall into unbelief.

So am I. Where does the Bible say that falling into unbelief causes loss of salvation?

Does Romans 11 mean the person who falls into unbelief will share in the gifts?

The point of Rom 11:29 is that those who have been GIVEN the gift will NOT have that gift revoked.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Please show me EXACTLY where Paul excluded the gift of eternal life from irrevocable gifts anywhere in Rom 11."

That's not even the argument.

It is, whether one denies that or not.

In context we see that the gifts and calling being irrevocable has nothing to do with the gift of eternal life being given and received and then never being able to be taken away from that person.

So, just HOW do "we see that..."? That's NEVER been explained. Just claimed. Over and over again.

Paul himself explains right in the passage that what it means is the Israelites still get called and gifted to this very day

Where exactly "right in the passage" did Paul explain about Jews "still get called and gifted"? Where are those plain words?

OSNAS cannot even identify what the irrevocable gifts refer to? And all the while ignoring the 3 gifts of God that Paul already described in that letter to the Romans. Talk about ignoring the context.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If OSNAS views Christ's ministry as "perfect", then how in the world can it be said that some of those saved can lose it? That's not perfect.

Being in Christ and trusting him to deliver us to the heavenly kingdom can be likened to a perfect car that can take you from New York City to Los Angeles without a hitch. But it doesn't matter how perfect and capable that car is if you stop trusting in it and, as a result, you get out of the car at St. Louis. But that's what some ex-Christians have done with Christ. They trusted in Christ as the perfect vehicle to get them from here to there but somewhere along the line before they get to the kingdom they lose faith and bail out of Christ. That doesn't make Christ any less perfect and capable of getting them to heaven. He's still the perfect way to the kingdom of heaven if you'll just stay in him and let him do that for you.

The Bible uses the analogy of a house or household. We have to stay in the household of Christ to be delivered safely from the destroying angel. Venture outside of the house before morning and you will be destroyed.

"13‘The blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you live; and when I see the blood I will pass over you, and no plague will befall you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt.
22 apply some of the blood that is in the basin to the lintel and the two doorposts; and none of you shall go outside the door of his house until morning." (Exodus 12:13,22 NASB)

"Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end." (Hebrews 3:6 NASB italics in original)

But Hyper-grace doctrine insists, in complete contradiction to this truth, that you are still somehow a part of the house and it's protection if you leave the house after you've had once been safe inside of it where we are told to stay.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is, whether one denies that or not.

No, that's not the argument. Stop talking and listen: Eternal life is included in the gifts and calling to Israel that are irrevocable, just not in the way YOU say they are. Paul is proof that they are irrevocable to Israel even though they as a nation have rejected the Messiah.

The HUGE mistake OSAS is making is ignoring the context in which Paul explains how the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable and assigning it it's own agenda driven meaning and interpretation. NOTHING in the passage talks about someone believing and being saved then not believing but still being saved. NOTHING. OSAS decided that's what vs. 29 means apart from it's context. Paul plainly explains what he meant, but Hyper/Free grace doctrine has chosen to ignore the context and repeatedly try to cram it's un-rightly divided doctrine down our throats.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this: (but a lot more as well)
"How "competent" is One who saves people, but then loses them because of what they do? That doesn't look very competent."

See, I told you didn't know the argument.
People don't become ex-believers because of some kind of failure on Christ's part.

That wasn't the discussion. I never even suggested that people cease to believe because of failure on Christ's part.

The point I clearly made was that the OSNAS position of loss of salvation shows that Christ actually fails to save ultimately. iow, consider all the things that OSNAS lists as ways to lose salvation:
ceasing to believe
all the various sin lists: 1 Cor 6, Gal 5, Eph 5, Rev 21

If one is considered saved in any point in time, and yet ends up in the lake of fire, the Savior really didn't save them, now, did He?

They become ex-believers because they have chosen to reject the One who can keep them!

So, obviously, their power of rejection is much more powerful than the Savior's power to keep them.

Interesting. Especially since Jesus said this about that:
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. John 10

This is a whole new paradigm of thinking that you know nothing about because you are programmed by OSAS doctrine to not be able to see anything else but what OSAS doctrine says is true.

lol

The sign of spiritual maturity is to be able to think other thoughts besides your own.

More lol. The sign of spiritual maturity is to "rightly divine the word of truth", per 2 Tim 2:15. Which OSNAS doesn't do.

That doesn't mean you have to agree with what's outside of your doctrinal box.

I agree with that Scripture says in plain language. I don't depend on figures of speech or metaphors to form my doctrinal understanding.

It means you are mature enough to at least hear them out with an open heart and open mind.

I've been doing that for years and years.

That's how you learn.

I don't learn false doctrine. I expose it.

But you will learn nothing if you instantly and automatically exclude any thoughts or ideas that aren't already included in your own narrow understanding.

Every post I respond to has been examined and compared to the truth of Scripture. That which agrees with Scripture I applaud (), and that which conflicts with Scripture I refute WITH Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

Being in Christ and trusting him to deliver us to the heavenly kingdom can be likened to a perfect car that can take you from New York City to Los Angeles without a hitch. But it doesn't matter how perfect and capable that car is if you stop trusting in it and, as a result, you get out of the car at St. Louis.

The "fly in the ointment" or flaw in your analogy is that the believer just can't "get out of the car". Why not? Jesus said so. John 10:28-29 tells us that we are held by Him, not the other way around as your flawed analogy has it.

You see, the Savior actually saves. Everyone who has believed. That's what He promised, and Jesus never lies. He said, "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish". John 10:28 So, when does one receive eternal life? When they believe, of course, because Jesus said so in John 5:24.

But that's what some ex-Christians have done with Christ.

If anyone can "get out of the car", then Jesus' promise in John 10:28 isn't true. That would make Him a liar.

They trusted in Christ as the perfect vehicle to get them from here to there but somewhere along the line before they get to the kingdom they lose faith and bail out of Christ.

Apparently you don't realize that this puts the human being in charge of his own salvation.

That doesn't make Christ any less perfect and capable of getting them to heaven.

Yes it does. And it makes a human being's power of rejection MORE POWERFUL than Christ's saving power.

Apparently the saving power of Christ is SUBSERVIENT to the rejection power of humans, per OSNAS. I reject that idea.

He's still the perfect way to the kingdom of heaven if you'll just stay in him and let him do that for you.

Thank God we're not in charge.

 

[Nathan]

That's just one of the definitions; spiritual death. I gave others as well.


Can any child undo their own birth from their own parents? No. Impossible. The same applies in the spiritual realm. Once born physically, one's parents REMAIN one's parents. Can't be undone. All that can be done is separation of fellowship. The relationship remains INTACT.


Yes, but 'death' includes a number of different meanings and uses, as I explained.


That separation involves only fellowship. It cannot refer to relationship for the reasons already explained.

If the separation only involved fellowship, then Adam and Eve only had separation of fellowship.

Do you believe that Adam and Eve were only separated in fellowship? Or did they die like God said they would?