Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Just look at the whole verse (2 Tim 2:12).

first part: if we endure, we will reign with Him. iow, IF A, then B.
A is enduring in the faith. B is reigning with Him.

second part: if we deny Him (not enduring in the faith), He will deny us. To stay consistent with the whole verse, what will be denied us is the privilege of reigning with Him."

Everyone has the privilege to take any verse any way they want. But that doesn't legitamize how they understand it.

As I showed, the context is clear. v.12 a and v.12b are in contrast. enduring and denying Him. Opposites. And the result of each opposite outcome.

From the context, what might these "other aspects of denial" be?

This is not in context. Sorry.

Rev 3:2-6
Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Mat 10:32-33
So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Christ did not say He would deny people a 'position', He said He would deny them to the Father. Your trying to teach that someone can deny Christ, and only be denied some 'thing' in heaven. That is wrong.

1Ch 28:9
“And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever.

Ezr 8:22
For I was ashamed to ask the king for a band of soldiers and horsemen to protect us against the enemy on our way, since we had told the king, “The hand of our God is for good on all who seek him, and the power of his wrath is against all who forsakehim.”

Isa 1:28
But rebels and sinners shall be broken together,
and those who forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

Mal 3:6
“For I the LORD do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

Again, not in context.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Really? The OSNAS view is that loss of faith or offensive lifestyle results in loss of salvation. So that's a Savior who can't save. Or can't keep one saved?

You're reading my post through the lens of OSAS.
That's why you can't see what I'm saying.
You're programmed to only see one way.

 

[FreeGrace]

Anyone who serves Christ, serves by His power and Spirit. To blaspheme the Spirit of God, you deny the power of the Spirit of God - not just some miracles that Christ performed.

One is free to think what they want. But the context is very clear about what was meant by blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace]

You're reading my post through the lens of OSAS.
That's why you can't see what I'm saying.

Maybe that explains why OSNAS can't see what I'm saying. Thanks.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Again, not in context.

It's interesting how it's all about context in 2 Timothy 2 for the Hyper-grace argument, yet it completely and utterly resists context in Romans 11:28-31 NASB.

 

[Nathan]

One is free to think what they want. But the context is very clear about what was meant by blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Mat 12:31
Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

blasphēmía, blas-fay-me'-ah; from G989; vilification (especially against God):—blasphemy, evil speaking, railing.

"against"

pneûma, pnyoo'-mah; from G4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:—ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

You do not find that it has to do with Christ in human form, performing miracles. It is an evil speaking(continual) of the Holy Spirit. This can be exemplified by someone speaking evil about the working of the Spirit in another's life, and it can also be found by denying the power of the Spirit to lead us away from sin. It is simply a denial, any and all, of the Spirit of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Maybe that explains why OSNAS can't see what I'm saying. Thanks.

I see your argument perfectly.
What I have noticed in these debates is the failure of OSAS to even understand the non-OSAS argument, let alone agree with it. My post about the competency of the High Priest proved that once again.

OSAS is completely blinded to the non-OSAS understanding of the perfect ministry of the High Priest. I'm confident that you can not prove that you even understand the non-OSAS understanding of Jesus' perfect ministry. Explaining it back to me would prove you understand it. But I don't think you are able to do that. You will make up an excuse of why you won't even try.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

One is free to think what they want. But the context is very clear about what was meant by blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Very interesting how context is of supreme importance except when it chaffs against one's doctrine like it does for Hyper-grace in Romans 11:28-31 NASB.

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"Just look at the whole verse (2 Tim 2:12).

first part: if we endure, we will reign with Him. iow, IF A, then B.
A is enduring in the faith. B is reigning with Him.

second part: if we deny Him (not enduring in the faith), He will deny us. To stay consistent with the whole verse, what will be denied us is the privilege of reigning with Him."

Everyone has the privilege to take any verse any way they want. But that doesn't legitamize how they understand it.

As I showed, the context is clear. v.12 a and v.12b are in contrast. enduring and denying Him. Opposites. And the result of each opposite outcome.

From the context, what might these "other aspects of denial" be?

This is not in context. Sorry.

Again, not in context.

Pro 15:10
There is severe discipline for him who forsakes the way;
whoever hates reproof will die.

 

[Eugene]

When Jesus says... Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none, He is referring to the Apostles, however I hear verse's such as this, used to refer to all believer's, in an attempt to "prove" once we are saved, we are always saved.

OK, and if I’m understanding you here those given to Jesus was limited to the twelve, and only they are written in the book of life?

No, not at all, as this is referring to "whoever" or "he" with the condition set forth as "overcome", in order to remain in the book of Life.

I thought I asked this, but do you think 1 Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world, refers to the overcoming necessary to be added to the book of life, and then you say “to remain in the book of life.” If once someone was in the book of life don’t you think Rev 3:5 is saying Jesus will never erase their name from it?

Do you agree that it is indeed possible to be "blotted out" of the Book of Life?

Since in Rev 3:5 Jesus says He will not erase the names of those that overcame I don’t believe so.

Overcome here is a reference to continuing in the faith: faithful obedience to believe and do what Jesus our Lord tell's us to do in spite of the circumstances.

If that was the case Peter sure went astray denying the Lord three times.

1 Jn 5:5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

And you believe that this is different than just becoming born of God? Thanks.

 

[Eugene]

We read in Rev 3:5 He that overcometh (How is that done? 1 Jn 5:4-5), the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

We have a competent and capable High Priest. He won't fail to represent us properly before the Father like Eli, for example, did. His competency is the basis for our confidence and why we should hold fast and never lose faith in Jesus our High Priest.

2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

 

[Nathan]

2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

But that's not the entire "faithful saying". :wink

 

[Eugene]

Rev 3:5
The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments

Have you conquered? How?
Are you sure of being clothed in white garments?
Is your name in the book of life?

 

[Eugene]

2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

But that's not the entire "faithful saying". :wink

Would you care to elaborate?

 

[Nathan]

Have you conquered? How?
Are you sure of being clothed in white garments?
Is your name in the book of life?

I have not conquered yet. I know He has though - and that is where my faith is. Since He conquered, then I know I will too if I abide in Him. It takes all the work of conquering out of my hands and puts it into His.

I am positive that after we conquer, then we will receive the white garments. Jesus talked about it in the parable of the wedding feast. The servants did not go out telling people to come to the feast and give them the garments - the people who came to the feast received the garments when they got there. We get the white robe when we enter eternity.

Rev 6:9-11
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

My name is most certainly in the book of life. Along with whoever else has not passed on denying Christ. The names are written when the book was made. Only in denying Christ will a person have their name blotted out.

 

[Nathan]

Would you care to elaborate?

Sure You left out a portion of the "faithful saying". Verse 12 to be exact.

2Ti 2:11-13
The saying is trustworthy, for:
If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;
if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.


Is it a Bible translation thing? I know some leave out certain verses. I don't know if this is one of them.

 

[Nathan]

I have not conquered yet. I know He has though - and that is where my faith is. Since He conquered, then I know I will too if I abide in Him. It takes all the work of conquering out of my hands and puts it into His.

I am positive that after we conquer, then we will receive the white garments. Jesus talked about it in the parable of the wedding feast. The servants did not go out telling people to come to the feast and give them the garments - the people who came to the feast received the garments when they got there. We get the white robe when we enter eternity.

Rev 6:9-11
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

My name is most certainly in the book of life. Along with whoever else has not passed on denying Christ. The names are written when the book was made. Only in denying Christ will a person have their name blotted out.

I should note there is good reason for this fact of not having the garments now. Our flesh is totally corrupt, if we were to put on the garments now they would most definitely be stained - mine would probably be in a matter of hours.

When we leave this body of sin, and receive our incorruptible body, then we can put on the white robe.

I cannot tell you how many times one of my son's thinks that all he needs to do is put on fresh clothes instead of taking a shower. Or, the flip side, how many times they take a shower and then put the dirty clothes back on.

Our hearts are being purified as we speak, when we enter into eternity our new bodies will be combined with our purified hearts, and then we will be clothed with His salvation. I cannot tell you how wonderful it is to just think about putting that on.

 

[Eugene]

2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

But that's not the entire "faithful saying". :wink

Would you care to elaborate?

Sure You left out a portion of the "faithful saying". Verse 12 to be exact.
2Ti 2:11-13
The saying is trustworthy, for:
If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;
if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us, is where you wish to go?
That was not the point I was attempting to bring forth, but let's have a go at it.
What is the suffering, its purpose, and what will we be denied. I thought I said this on my original post, but what is "He cannot deny Himself" referring to?

 

[Nathan]

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us, is where you wish to go?
That was not the point I was attempting to bring forth, but let's have a go at it
What is the suffering, its purpose, and what will we be denied. I thought I said this on my original post, but what is "He cannot deny Himself" referring to?

Oh, I was not wishing to go anywhere - just thought you accidentally left out a verse. I did not know you were doing it on purpose. There are times when I leave out some verses, but the entire thought of Paul is kind of skewed when you leave out the middle portion.

"He cannot deny Himself" is simply a reiteration from a passage in Numbers;

Num 23:19
God is not man, that he should lie,
or a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Has he said, and will he not do it?
Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

What Paul is stating, by using this, is that even if we act as men do and are faithless - even to the point of denying Him - He cannot deny Himself because He is not man - He is God.

The point is, we may choose to leave God - but that is our choice and He will still remain right where He is. His words remain true even when we deny they are. The point is that God is an absolute - there is no changing.

The last part of verse 13 is to bring home the idea that when we deny Him - in complete denial - then He is not with us because He will deny us, and if He was still with us, then that would mean He would have to deny Himself - which He cannot do.

Taken in context, you have to revert back to the start of this discourse which begins with Paul giving analogies to Timothy. The context is that you do not get the outcome of what you started until you finish it.

The "faithful saying" that Paul gives is just a synopses of this. To think that, we do not have to endure, or don't have to remain faithful, or we could deny Him - and still think we will receive the outcome of what we started - is not reasonable. This is the context of the passage.

 

[Eugene]

.

To think that, we do not have to endure, or don't have to remain faithful, or we could deny Him - and still think we will receive the outcome of what we started - is not reasonable. This is the context of the passage.

This answer by Nathan is referring to 2 Tim 2:12, and its context to me is the quality of reward of reigning or not reigning with Christ due to our enduring (suffering) or not. Rom 8:17 Paul said it this way: "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; IF so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

In one of my posts I compared another reward also mentioned for faithfully keeping the word of God, and that was to be kept from the temptation to come upon all the world. Rev 3:10, i.e., being caught up to be with Jesus pretrib.