Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[Nathan]

The problem is that OSNAS claims that if one ceases to believe, they are back to "square one"; unsaved, unforgiven, unjustified, etc. Yet, by having eternal life through faith in Christ (John 5:24), Jesus promises that those He gives eternal life will never perish (John 10:28).


The separation is about fellowship, not relationship.

It seems OSNAS cannot distinguish the difference between fellowship, which is dynamic, and relationship, which is permanent.

In God's economy, a married couple are in a permanent relationship, as per Mark 10:9, but in no way does that mean they are in permanent fellowship. If you're married, just ask your wife.

Or, a child and his/her parents are in a permanent relationship, but in no way does that mean they are in permanent fellowship.

When Adam and Eve sinned, were they separated from the eternal life?

 

[FreeGrace]

If a person who believes into Christ could have temporary life in Christ, then that life would necessarilly be characterized as temporary.

Since we who believe into Christ do have eternal life, then that life is necessarily characterized as eternal.

Right. And Jesus said that those He gives eternal life will never perish. John 10:28. Which is what 'eternal life' is and means; to never perish.

 

[FreeGrace]

Wouldn't you say it is also characterized as being in Christ? You left the "in Christ" part out of your second statement while using it in the first one

That is covered in Eph 1:13,14 and 4:30. Having believed (simple occurrence or point in time) one is sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing God's own possession for the day of redemption.

 

[FreeGrace]

Thanks.

I don't think some don't understand what eternal is, just that some think that it exists if a person is separated from Christ.

The fact is; no one can be separated from being IN CHRIST. Having believed, we are sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing God's own possession (those sealed) for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

 

[FreeGrace]

Right, and we were born again(created) in a relationship with God also right? Just like they were, we are created for good works right?

Sure.

I'm not speaking about our first birth, the physical one, I am speaking about our new birth.

Are we born again, the new birth, separated from God?

No. Impossible. Having believed, we are sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, a deposit guaranteeing God's own possession for the day of redemption.

Another way to describe OSAS is this:
once sealed, always sealed

 

[FreeGrace]

When Adam and Eve sinned, were they separated from the eternal life?

Wrong question. They didn't have eternal life when they were created. There was the "tree of life" in the Garden that they could eat from. But after their rebellion, God removed them from the Garden so as not to be able to eat from that tree and LIVE FOREVER.
Gen 3:22
And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

That's why we cannot compare Adam and Eve to the rest of humanity. It's apples and oranges.

After they rebelled, they THEN were in the same condition that the rest of humanity is born into. But we can't compare or equate their pre-fallen state with anything regarding the rest of humanity.

 

[Nathan]

Right. And Jesus said that those He gives eternal life will never perish. John 10:28. Which is what 'eternal life' is and means; to never perish.

I think this is your definition correct? Is this the true definition from the Bible? Do you know what the words that are translated "Eternal" and "Life" mean?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Right. And Jesus said that those He gives eternal life will never perish. John 10:28. Which is what 'eternal life' is and means; to never perish."

I think this is your definition correct? Is this the true definition from the Bible?

I quoted from John 10:28. I wasn't giving definitions.

Do you know what the words that are translated "Eternal" and "Life" mean?

Yes.

 

[Nathan]

That is covered in Eph 1:13,14 and 4:30. Having believed (simple occurrence or point in time) one is sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing God's own possession for the day of redemption.

That post was not for you. You did not post the original post I was referring to, so it is impossible to speak for Gregg.

 

[Nathan]

Sure.


No. Impossible. Having believed, we are sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, a deposit guaranteeing God's own possession for the day of redemption.

Another way to describe OSAS is this:
once sealed, always sealed

So do you believe we are a new creation, created in the same condition that Adam and Eve were to begin with?

 

[Nathan]

Wrong question. They didn't have eternal life when they were created. There was the "tree of life" in the Garden that they could eat from. But after their rebellion, God removed them from the Garden so as not to be able to eat from that tree and LIVE FOREVER.
Gen 3:22
And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

That's why we cannot compare Adam and Eve to the rest of humanity. It's apples and oranges.

After they rebelled, they THEN were in the same condition that the rest of humanity is born into. But we can't compare or equate their pre-fallen state with anything regarding the rest of humanity.

Didn't Jesus say that whoever eats His flesh and drinks His blood would have eternal life?

Jhn 6:54
Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

Do we have to do this in order to have eternal life?

Do you believe they were in the same type of relationship, before they sinned, as we are after our new birth?

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"Right. And Jesus said that those He gives eternal life will never perish. John 10:28. Which is what 'eternal life' is and means; to never perish."

I quoted from John 10:28. I wasn't giving definitions.


Yes.

You said;

Right. And Jesus said that those He gives eternal life will never perish. John 10:28. Which is what 'eternal life' is and means; to never perish.

So you were giving a definition right? A definition of a word is what the word means right? I did not see the phrase "Which is what 'eternal life' is and means" quoted in John 10:28

If you want, I'll post what the words actually mean - unless you want to.

 

[Gregg T]

Wouldn't you say it is also characterized as being in Christ? You left the "in Christ" part out of your second statement while using it in the first one

Of coarse it is in Christ, having believed into Him.

The first statement was "if . . . then" and is a contingent, but the second statement was "since . . . then" and is factual. I did not believe into Christ thinking that salvation was potentially eternal or contingent upon my future actions.

This clear and concise scripture led to my salvation: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

After believing in Christ, does He attach an addendum stating that "should not perish" now means 'should not perish if . . .' or was there a hyperlink to another document stating in fine print and in another language that "eternal life" really means 'potential and contingent life'?

 

[Nathan]

Of coarse it is in Christ, having believed into Him.

The first statement was "if . . . then" and is a contingent, but the second statement was "since . . . then" and is factual. I did not believe into Christ thinking that salvation was potentially eternal or contingent upon my future actions.

This clear and concise scripture led to my salvation: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

After believing in Christ, does He attach an addendum stating that "should not perish" now means 'should not perish if . . .' or was there a hyperlink to another document stating in fine print and in another language that "eternal life" really means 'potential and contingent life'?

I see. I just wondered why you would leave out that eternal life is 'in Christ'. I know you believe it, but you did leave it out of the statement.

The only condition is that the belief is in Christ - right? No other addendum that I know of.

Do you truly believe that a persons belief has to be in Christ, and in Christ alone? Can your belief be in anything else?

 

[Gregg T]

That is covered in Eph 1:13,14 and 4:30. Having believed (simple occurrence or point in time) one is sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing God's own possession for the day of redemption.

That post was not for you. You did not post the original post I was referring to, so it is impossible to speak for Gregg.

Did you mean to say it is potentially impossible to speak for Gregg?

I agree with FreeGrace's post, and he may speak for me in this matter.

 

[Nathan]

Did you mean to say it is potentially impossible to speak for Gregg?

I agree with FreeGrace's post, and he may speak for me in this matter.

Very well, if you would like him to speak for you that's fine with me. At the time it was impossible for him to speak for you because I had not seen a post or any other documentation stating he could. Now its not impossible.

So it goes back to the question - you have to be in Christ to be sealed correct? Can you be sealed if you are separated from Christ?

 

[Gregg T]

I see. I just wondered why you would leave out that eternal life is 'in Christ'. I know you believe it, but you did leave it out of the statement.

The only condition is that the belief is in Christ - right? No other addendum that I know of.

Do you truly believe that a persons belief has to be in Christ, and in Christ alone? Can your belief be in anything else?

Nathan, I did not intend to leave anything out; certainly not to insinuate believing in anthing else or in anyone else other than Christ.

Could a believer have eternal life in Christ, and then later at some point stop believing so as to no longer have eternal life? And if so, could he at some time after that have eternal life again?

 

[Nathan]

Nathan, I did not intend to leave anything out; certainly not to insinuate believing in anthing else or in anyone else other than Christ.

Could a believer have eternal life in Christ, and then later at some point stop believing so as to no longer have eternal life? And if so, could he at some time after that have eternal life again?

Can a believer stop believing so as to no longer have eternal life - Yes.

2Pe 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

Can you have eternal life after leaving it - Yes - however, it is impossible to bring those who leave eternal life back to repentance. So in essence, it is possible to have it, but the conditions of returning makes it impossible.

Heb 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

The same way it is possible for the entire world to have eternal life, but impossible for them to have it any other way but through Christ. If someone asked you is it possible for them to have eternal life you would answer yes. If they said ok, let me have it, then you would probably tell them the only way to have it is to believe in Christ right?

If they said, "but I do not want to believe in Christ" - would you then tell them they could still have eternal life? Of course not, because while it is possible to have eternal life, it is impossible to have it in any other means but in Christ.


Question: Does Christ "buy" the souls of those who do not believe in Him? Does God place Christ sacrifice for sin onto the account of unbelievers?

 

[Nathan]

I'll add this in for further understanding.

The same "belief" that someone believes with, is the same, but exact opposite, "disbelief" that someone disbelieves with.

This is where people get 'hung' up on the truth. Because some people think that it is not an ongoing belief in Christ, but a singular point in time, then they also think the same for disbelief in Christ. That is not the truth.

Disbelief is not a momentary 'not wanting to believe' in Christ. No more than Peters lapse in judgement was a total denial of Christ.

Disbelief that leads to foresaking Christ is a continual denial of Him. This comes through denial of His work in our lives. As James puts it;

Jas 1:12-15
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

Desire -----> Sin --------> Death.......

This is also why James then closes out his letter with this;

Jas 5:19-20
My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

We find ourselves wondering from the truth sometimes. I know I have at least. That did not mean that I have fully denied Christ though. However, had I continued on that path - or anyone else - that sin(which began with desire) would have eventually led to death. Not just physical death, but at James puts it - death of the soul.

Its not an - in/out - in/out - in/out - type of thing. However, when you let sin constantly live in your heart it will eventually harden it to the point of disbelief.

See, that's the point of watching ourselves about sin. Not continuing in sin is not about being good for God, its about guarding our hearts. Its not about earning salvation, its about nurturing it in our heart.

 

[FreeGrace]

That post was not for you. You did not post the original post I was referring to, so it is impossible to speak for Gregg.

I wasn't speaking for anyone.