Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[FreeGrace]

No, that's not the argument. Stop talking and listen: Eternal life is included in the gifts and calling to Israel that are irrevocable, just not in the way YOU say they are. Paul is proof that they are irrevocable to Israel even though they as a nation have rejected the Messiah.

If you really do believe that the gift of eternal life is irrevocable, then WHY do you believe that one can lose eternal life? That makes no sense.

The HUGE mistake OSAS is making is ignoring the context in which Paul explains how the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable and assigning it it's own agenda driven meaning and interpretation.

This doesn't make any sense to me. Where does Paul "assign it it's own agenda"? What what does that even mean?

NOTHING in the passage talks about someone believing and being saved then not believing but still being saved. NOTHING.

What is clear is that eternal life is a gift of God, and that it's irrevocable. Yet OSNAS claims eternal life IS revocable.

OSAS decided that's what vs. 29 means apart from it's context.

There is nothing in the context that makes eternal life revocable. OSNAS only claims that it is. Without any evidence.

Paul plainly explains what he meant

Yet OSNAS can't show where Paul "explains" this.

 

[FreeGrace]

If the separation only involved fellowship, then Adam and Eve only had separation of fellowship.

Let's not bring in a totally unrelated issue. They were created without a sin nature. There is no comparison. They HAD relationship with God via creation. They lost relationship through sin. That's the 'death' mentioned in Gen 2:17.

We're born with a sin nature and spiritually separated from God at birth.

Which makes Adam and Eve irrelevant to our situation. They weren't.

 

[WIP]

Christ let Peter's denial go unanswered for a period of time, denying him an immediate restoration of relationship; and then rather, Jesus sought out Peter that he may be restored. Jesus rebuked him publically among several of the disciples, as was fitting for his public denial of Christ.

Peter was grieved in the heart at what he did, knowing his profession of faith and his believing in Christ. Should he have died in that state of denial, he still believed into Christ, and had eternal life in Him. The point is not what might happen if we die physically, but what God does with believers because we are alive in Christ. He desires to teach us His ways. Should we not walk in them, or should we rebel even from the heart, it is God's desire to correct us and to restore us. We stand in His grace, and we belong to Christ having been set firmly in Him, and we are sealed by His Spirit.

I have a question. I agree that Peter was grieved in the heart. Why was that? I submit that it was because he realized the mistake he made and how he turned his back on his friend. Just as he doubted while walking on the sea, he now doubted again. But, just as when he realized his error while sinking into the sea he called out to Jesus and here too when he realized his error he went away and wept bitterly. He was again calling out to his Lord who he doubted.

But what if he truly denied Jesus with all his heart? Suppose, instead of grieving as he did, he got angry and disgusted and began to preach that Jesus was a fraud and everything He said and did was a lie and a deception and he made it his life's purpose to discredit Jesus whenever and wherever he could and turning people away from believing? How do you suppose that would have effected his salvation?

It is recorded in 1 Samuel 16:7 that God doesn't look at our outward appearance but that He looks at our heart. Jesus said that it is what comes out of the heart that defiles (ref. Matthew 15:18-20).

 

[Nathan]

Let's not bring in a totally unrelated issue. They were created without a sin nature. There is no comparison. They HAD relationship with God via creation. They lost relationship through sin. That's the 'death' mentioned in Gen 2:17.


Which makes Adam and Eve irrelevant to our situation. They weren't.

They are very relavent. They were not separated from God, then became separated. God clothed them after killing an animal. They are reconciled to God the same way we are - through Christ.

I suppose if a person does not believe the Scriptures are relevant to the understanding of God they could dismiss them. I am not one of those people. I don't believe God changes.

 

[FreeGrace]

They are very relavent. They were not separated from God, then became separated.

I never said that. They created in relationship with God. Unlike all the rest of humanity. Which is why I said they are not relevant to this discussion.

God clothed them after killing an animal. They are reconciled to God the same way we are - through Christ.

And they were not created unreconciled. In fact, they didn't need reconciliation UNTIL they rebelled. Unlike the rest of humanity.

 

[Gregg T]

I have a question. I agree that Peter was grieved in the heart. Why was that? I submit that it was because he realized the mistake he made and how he turned his back on his friend. Just as he doubted while walking on the sea, he now doubted again. But, just as when he realized his error while sinking into the sea he called out to Jesus and here too when he realized his error he went away and wept bitterly. He was again calling out to his Lord who he doubted.

But what if he truly denied Jesus with all his heart? Suppose, instead of grieving as he did, he got angry and disgusted and began to preach that Jesus was a fraud and everything He said and did was a lie and a deception and he made it his life's purpose to discredit Jesus whenever and wherever he could and turning people away from believing? How do you suppose that would have effected his salvation?

It is recorded in 1 Samuel 16:7 that God doesn't look at our outward appearance but that He looks at our heart. Jesus said that it is what comes out of the heart that defiles (ref. Matthew 15:18-20).

Peter admitted to loving Christ as a brother, and I understand that he believed into Christ so as to be saved.
Regarding the hypothetical denial as you described, that mindset and behavior might indicate he never believed into Christ so as to be saved.

 

[Gregg T]

What about "eternal life" is not eternal? Having life in Christ is described as eternal.

By definition, it is not possible to lose "eternal" life, else eternal does not mean eternal. This is the nature of the life that God has given believers, it is eternal.

A thousand hypotheticals and philosophical scenarios can not change the work and accomplishment of God in Christ.

 

[Nathan]

I never said that. They created in relationship with God. Unlike all the rest of humanity. Which is why I said they are not relevant to this discussion.


And they were not created unreconciled. In fact, they didn't need reconciliation UNTIL they rebelled. Unlike the rest of humanity.

2Co 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

We are a new creation also. Created for a relationship with God. We are created in reconciliation. Right?

Rom 5:10
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

So how is it that they were created for a relationship with God, as we are - they were created reconciled to God, as we are - yet they were separated from God through sin ------ yet you seem to be saying that we cannot be? Do you believe that sin separates a person from God?

 

[Nathan]

What about "eternal life" is not eternal? Having life in Christ is described as eternal.

By definition, it is not possible to lose "eternal" life, else eternal does not mean eternal. This is the nature of the life that God has given believers, it is eternal.

A thousand hypotheticals and philosophical scenarios can not change the work and accomplishment of God in Christ.

There is no question as to the eternal life that is Christ. The question that we have before us is if there is eternal life apart from Christ?

Some on here seem to be saying that you can be separated from Christ - yet retain eternal life in yourself. Do you believe that there is life apart from Christ?

 

[MarkT]

This suggests that this irrevocable gift is revoked by "falling into unbelief". That is contradictory.


There is nothing in John 5:24 that says this. And neither in John 10:28-29. In fact, the ONLY CONDITION for never perishing is to receive the gift of eternal life. It's in plain language.


So am I. Where does the Bible say that falling into unbelief causes loss of salvation?


The point of Rom 11:29 is that those who have been GIVEN the gift will NOT have that gift revoked.

My point is Ro. 11:29 doesn't say anything about the person who falls into unbelief sharing in eternal life. Mean while Jesus does say what happens to the man who falls into unbelief. He said, 'the last state becomes worse than the first'. Mt. 12:45 The last state of that man becomes worse than before he believed.

“When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes through waterless places seeking rest, but he finds none. 44 Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and brings with him seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. Mt. 12:43-45

And Paul said, "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. 7 For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned. Hebrews 6:4-8

 

[Gregg T]

Some on here seem to be saying that you can be separated from Christ - yet retain eternal life in yourself. Do you believe that there is life apart from Christ?

Your statement refers to eternal life, but your question only refers to life.

What does eternal mean to you?

 

[Gregg T]

If a person who believes into Christ could have temporary life in Christ, then that life would necessarilly be characterized as temporary.

Since we who believe into Christ do have eternal life, then that life is necessarily characterized as eternal.

 

[Nathan]

Your statement refers to eternal life, but your question only refers to life.

What does eternal mean to you?

Eternal means without beginning or end.

Let me rephrase my question as I meant to ask it.

Do you believe there is eternal life apart from Christ?

 

[Gregg T]

Eternal means without beginning or end.

Let me rephrase my question as I meant to ask it.

Do you believe there is eternal life apart from Christ?

No, there is not eternal life with God apart from Christ.

When one believes into Christ, so as to have eternal perpetual ever-lasting never-ending life, then that is what he has in Christ.

If someone understood what eternal means, they would not think that it might could possibly potentially maybe become something less than eternal, for any reason. God did not characterize the life of a believer as potentially eternal, but eternal.

 

[Nathan]

If a person who believes into Christ could have temporary life in Christ, then that life would necessarilly be characterized as temporary.

Since we who believe into Christ do have eternal life, then that life is necessarily characterized as eternal.

Wouldn't you say it is also characterized as being in Christ? You left the "in Christ" part out of your second statement while using it in the first one

 

[Nathan]

No, there is not eternal life with God apart from Christ.

When one believes into Christ, so as to have eternal perpetual ever-lasting never-ending life, then that is what he has in Christ.

If someone understood what eternal means, they would not think that it might could possibly potentially maybe become something less than eternal, for any reason. God did not characterize the life of a believer as potentially eternal, but eternal.

Thanks.

I don't think some don't understand what eternal is, just that some think that it exists if a person is separated from Christ.

Actually, the life of a believer is not characterized as eternal. The life of Christ is, because He is the eternal life.

1 John 5:20 (ESV)
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace]

So how is it that they were created for a relationship with God, as we are

They were created IN a relationship with God. They hadn't sinned yet and didn't need reconciliation, or salvation.

We, otoh, were born out of relationship with God, headed for the lake of fire; needing salvation.

they were created reconciled to God, as we are

No, we aren't.

yet they were separated from God through sin ------ yet you seem to be saying that we cannot be?

No, I said that we were born separated from God.

Do you believe that sin separates a person from God?

Thanks to Adam, we inherited his sin nature. Rom 5:12-18

 

[FreeGrace]

There is no question as to the eternal life that is Christ. The question that we have before us is if there is eternal life apart from Christ?

The problem is that OSNAS claims that if one ceases to believe, they are back to "square one"; unsaved, unforgiven, unjustified, etc. Yet, by having eternal life through faith in Christ (John 5:24), Jesus promises that those He gives eternal life will never perish (John 10:28).

Some on here seem to be saying that you can be separated from Christ - yet retain eternal life in yourself. Do you believe that there is life apart from Christ?

The separation is about fellowship, not relationship.

It seems OSNAS cannot distinguish the difference between fellowship, which is dynamic, and relationship, which is permanent.

In God's economy, a married couple are in a permanent relationship, as per Mark 10:9, but in no way does that mean they are in permanent fellowship. If you're married, just ask your wife.

Or, a child and his/her parents are in a permanent relationship, but in no way does that mean they are in permanent fellowship.

 

[Nathan]

They were created IN a relationship with God. They hadn't sinned yet and didn't need reconciliation, or salvation.

We, otoh, were born out of relationship with God, headed for the lake of fire; needing salvation.


No, we aren't.


No, I said that we were born separated from God.


Thanks to Adam, we inherited his sin nature. Rom 5:12-18

Right, and we were born again(created) in a relationship with God also right? Just like they were, we are created for good works right?

Gen 1:27
So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

Eph 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

I'm not speaking about our first birth, the physical one, I am speaking about our new birth.

Are we born again, the new birth, separated from God?

 

[FreeGrace]

My point is Ro. 11:29 doesn't say anything about the person who falls into unbelief sharing in eternal life.

I don't think you're getting the concept. The gift itself is irrevocable. Meaning, those who have been given that gift, which is eternal life (Rom 6:23), cannot lose it. The Bible doesn't have to state it the way you seem to want it. 11:29 says that God's gifts are irrevocable. And etrenal life is one of those gifts.

Mean while Jesus does say what happens to the man who falls into unbelief. He said, 'the last state becomes worse than the first'.

Please explain why that can't refer to one's life on earth before they die? Clearly, God punishes His children for disobedience. Heb 12

And Paul said, "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. 7 For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned. Hebrews 6:4-8

v.4 doesn't say "to restore salvation" as it seems many suppose it means.