Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[FreeGrace]

And this is the problem with OSAS that I encounter all the time. Most people are dogmatically hardened in their OSAS beliefs and are not willing to thoughtfully and honestly and openly examine the passages that oppose OSAS.

This fact is directly true of the OSNAS group.

Why? Because I define the gifts and calling of God being irrevocable the way Paul defines it: Israel's calling and gifting has not been revoked despite their rejection of Messiah.

Here we go again. Where does Paul define God's gifts and calling to Israel? No one has yet been able to show this.

Until one can do this, this claim needs to cease. Kinda like fake news.

OSAS is the one that assigns it's own agenda to Romans 11:29 NASB.

There is no agenda, other than the truth. And the truth is; God's gifts are irrevocable. And Paul specifically described 3 of God's gifts before he penned 11:29, so they ARE in context with 11:29.

Unlike these so-called and as yet UNDEFINED gifts to Israel.

It completely ignores the context and says it means people who once believed still have eternal life even if they later reject Messiah.

This is an example of reading one's own theological opinions into the verse. The verse is very plain; God's gifts are irrevocable. There is nothing in that verse that is limited only to the theoretical "gifts to Israel" that hasn't even been described or shown in the context, but only ASSUMED.

Even you know there is no context in Romans 11 to validate that interpretation of Romans 11:29 NASB. You just decided that's what it means.

This is just a smokescreen. Paul had already described 3 of God's gifts previously, all of which directly relate to 11:29.

But it is those who vigorously reject the plain meaning of the verses who insist on dissociating 6:23 from 11:29. But they are directly linked by the phrase "gift of God". Eternal life is one of God's gifts, and God's gifts are irrevocable.

If Paul never intended the gift of God being eternal life to be context for 11:29, he would have had to plainly made that clear.

He did no such thing.

OSNAS only has lots of assumptions in their claims. But no plain language to support their claims.

 

[Gregg T]

I referenced Jn 3:14-18, to which you replied:

And this is the problem with OSAS that I encounter all the time. Most people are dogmatically hardened in their OSAS beliefs and are not willing to thoughtfully and honestly and openly examine the passages that oppose OSAS.

Please thoughtfully, honestly, openly examine Jn 3:14-18 to state your case for OSNAS or against OSAS. I will read your reply carefully.

 

[Nathan]

Then please provide any verse that actually speaks of "denying it (eternal life)". Or how one can "let go" of eternal life".

OSNAS makes many claims, but none that are supported by Scripture.

Actually, you make claims(we should not hide behind letters right?) that are not supported by Scripture. Like this one - which is a case in point.

What passage in the Bible states "you can never lose eternal life" ? I have never seen one that stated that, so you must be making claims yourself right? Of course, we can understand that this is your interpretation of passages - and your welcome to make any claims you want about your thoughts and idea's.

What we can show is this, not my thoughts or idea's, but plain words that I will quote from several different translations. After all, you did ask for a verse that actually speaks of "denying it".

New International Version
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

New Living Translation
But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves.

English Standard Version
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

New American Standard Bible
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

King James Bible
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves.

International Standard Version
Now there were false prophets among the people, just as there also will be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.

NET Bible
But false prophets arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. These false teachers will infiltrate your midst with destructive heresies, even to the point of denying the Master who bought them. As a result, they will bring swift destruction on themselves.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But there were also lying Prophets among the people, as there shall be lying teachers also among you, those who bring destructive heresies and deny the Lord who bought them, while bringing upon themselves speedy destruction.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
False prophets were among God's people [in the past], as false teachers will be among you. They will secretly bring in their own destructive teachings. They will deny the Lord, who has bought them, and they will bring themselves swift destruction.

Jubilee Bible 2000
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who covertly shall bring in destructive sects and shall deny the Lord that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

King James 2000 Bible
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who shall secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

American King James Version
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privately shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

American Standard Version
But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

Darby Bible Translation
But there were false prophets also among the people, as there shall be also among you false teachers, who shall bring in by the bye destructive heresies, and deny the master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction;

English Revised Version
But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

Webster's Bible Translation
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will privately bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Weymouth New Testament
But there were also false prophets among the people, as there will be teachers of falsehood among you also, who will cunningly introduce fatal divisions, disowning even the Sovereign Lord who has redeemed them, and bringing on themselves swift destruction.

World English Bible
But false prophets also arose among the people, as false teachers will also be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction.

Young's Literal Translation
And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects, and the Master who bought them denying, bringing to themselves quick destruction,

Now, its your decision if you will deny this clear example of someone who denies Christ, after having been purchased by Him. In case you are questioning the idea of purchase, you would be wise to know that it is speaking of transferring ownership from one individual to another. That means, in plain words, that they did belong to someone else - then the Master purchased them and became their owner - therefore they no longer belonged to someone else.

Do unbelievers belong to Christ?

 

[Eugene]

My name is most certainly in the book of life. Along with whoever else has not passed on denying Christ. The names are written when the book was made. Only in denying Christ will a person have their name blotted out.

What do you think of Rev 17:8? . . . they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, . . .

Is there the possibility God knew beforehand whom He would call? 1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom HE CALLED, them HE also JUSTIFIED: and whom he justified, them HE also GLORIFIED.
(You do realize we are God's work in progress?)
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

[Nathan]

Gregg Trickett

As you know, John 3:14-18 references back to the time when God sent the fiery serpents, when the people spoke out against God and Moses.

What we see is that when they looked at the serpent on the pole that Moses put up, then they would live. If they were bit again, did they have to look at the pole again?

What we also see is that even those who had survived the serpent plague(which was just one), later when they disbelieved, they were destroyed and did not enter the promise land.

Jde 1:5
Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

What we see is a constant abandoning by Israel, not God leaving them.

Num 25:1-5
While Israel lived in Shittim, the people began to whore with the daughters of Moab. These invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people ate and bowed down to their gods. So Israel yoked himself to Baal of Peor. And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel. And the LORD said to Moses, “Take all the chiefs of the people and hang them in the sun before the LORD, that the fierce anger of the LORD may turn away from Israel.” And Moses said to the judges of Israel, “Each of you kill those of his men who have yoked themselves to Baal of Peor.”

They turned from following God. Plain and simple. Over and over they did this.

Here is the point we must not look past. The one time they looked at the bronze serpent did not continually save them over and over. There were people there who were saved at that time which later died. And none, but the two men who stayed faithful, entered into the promise land.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This fact is directly true of the OSNAS group.


Here we go again. Where does Paul define God's gifts and calling to Israel? No one has yet been able to show this.

Until one can do this, this claim needs to cease. Kinda like fake news.


There is no agenda, other than the truth. And the truth is; God's gifts are irrevocable. And Paul specifically described 3 of God's gifts before he penned 11:29, so they ARE in context with 11:29.

Unlike these so-called and as yet UNDEFINED gifts to Israel.


This is an example of reading one's own theological opinions into the verse. The verse is very plain; God's gifts are irrevocable. There is nothing in that verse that is limited only to the theoretical "gifts to Israel" that hasn't even been described or shown in the context, but only ASSUMED.


This is just a smokescreen. Paul had already described 3 of God's gifts previously, all of which directly relate to 11:29.

But it is those who vigorously reject the plain meaning of the verses who insist on dissociating 6:23 from 11:29. But they are directly linked by the phrase "gift of God". Eternal life is one of God's gifts, and God's gifts are irrevocable.

If Paul never intended the gift of God being eternal life to be context for 11:29, he would have had to plainly made that clear.

He did no such thing.

OSNAS only has lots of assumptions in their claims. But no plain language to support their claims.

You keep falling back on your argument that the gifts and calling includes eternal life. But that's not even what I'm arguing against!!! And I've made that abundantly clear to you. So don't EVER use that rebuttal with me again. If you use it again in rebuttal to me I will have no choice but to assume you don't want to face what I'm actually addressing in the passage. Now, address what I am actually challenging Hyper-grace OSAS doctrine with in the passage.

Paul says that even though Israel has rejected the Messiah and been cut out of the tree God will still show Israel mercy.

"28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy." (Romans 11:28-31 NASB)

That is the meaning of "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" that, as we can see, Paul himself gives in the passage. But Hyper-grace OSAS completely ignores what Paul himself says it means and assigns their own interpretation to it. No where in the passage does he say it means people who believe but who then stop believing still have the gifts and calling of God. But he does plainly say that Israel will still receive mercy and not lose out on the gifts and calling of God despite their unbelief.

Paul uses his own salvation to prove that the gifts and calling of God have not been revoked from Israel because of their rejection of Messiah and being cut out of the tree. We see NOTHING to do whatsoever in the passage with a person believing, then not believing, but still having the gifts and calling of God. All one has to do is read the passage to see this.

If you don't want to answer why OSAS has chosen to ignore what Paul himself says the gifts and calling of God being irrevocable means then just say so. And if you fall back on the argument that the 'gifts' include eternal life, which I'm not even arguing against, then I will have to conclude that you simply do not want to face what the passage actually says and talk about it.

 

[Nathan]

What do you think of Rev 17:8? . . . they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, . . .

Is there the possibility God knew beforehand whom He would call? 1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom HE CALLED, them HE also JUSTIFIED: and whom he justified, them HE also GLORIFIED.
(You do realize we are God's work in progress?)
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Yes, I do realize(very much) that we are God's work in progress. To Him, its completed, to us its still going on.

I would say that God knew/knows who will respond to Him, those who would believe. I believe it is different than "whom He would call" because we know that He calls to all men everywhere. Knowing that, we know their names were not ever written in the book - as the verse you quoted states.

Jhn 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

and

Eze 18:25
“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?
When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die.
Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life.
Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?

“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin.
Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?
For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live.”

What we see from the passage in Ezekiel is the ones who's names are blotted out. Those are the ones who did turn to God, yet because they turned away from Him after knowing Him - denying Christ - they will die and not live.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Then please provide any verse that actually speaks of "denying it (eternal life)". Or how one can "let go" of eternal life".

OSNAS makes many claims, but none that are supported by Scripture."

Actually, you make claims(we should not hide behind letters right?) that are not supported by Scripture. Like this one - which is a case in point.

What passage in the Bible states "you can never lose eternal life" ? I have never seen one that stated that, so you must be making claims yourself right?

The difference that it seems you've missed is that I've provided verses that guarantee that those who have believed are sealed IN HIM for the day of redemption. How is that not absolutely clear about eternal security?

Further, Paul described eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23, and 2 others, specifically, and then penned 11:29 about God's gifts being irrevocable. Those who don't see the clear connection just don't want to see it.

What we can show is this, not my thoughts or idea's, but plain words that I will quote from several different translations. After all, you did ask for a verse that actually speaks of "denying it".

To keep things clear here, my point was that one who HAS eternal life cannot get rid of it by any means.

New International Version
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

New Living Translation
But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves.

English Standard Version
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

New American Standard Bible
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

King James Bible
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves.

International Standard Version
Now there were false prophets among the people, just as there also will be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.

NET Bible
But false prophets arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. These false teachers will infiltrate your midst with destructive heresies, even to the point of denying the Master who bought them. As a result, they will bring swift destruction on themselves.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But there were also lying Prophets among the people, as there shall be lying teachers also among you, those who bring destructive heresies and deny the Lord who bought them, while bringing upon themselves speedy destruction.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
False prophets were among God's people [in the past], as false teachers will be among you. They will secretly bring in their own destructive teachings. They will deny the Lord, who has bought them, and they will bring themselves swift destruction.

Jubilee Bible 2000
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who covertly shall bring in destructive sects and shall deny the Lord that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

King James 2000 Bible
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who shall secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

American King James Version
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privately shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

American Standard Version
But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

Darby Bible Translation
But there were false prophets also among the people, as there shall be also among you false teachers, who shall bring in by the bye destructive heresies, and deny the master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction;

English Revised Version
But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

Webster's Bible Translation
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will privately bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Weymouth New Testament
But there were also false prophets among the people, as there will be teachers of falsehood among you also, who will cunningly introduce fatal divisions, disowning even the Sovereign Lord who has redeemed them, and bringing on themselves swift destruction.

World English Bible
But false prophets also arose among the people, as false teachers will also be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction.

Young's Literal Translation
And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects, and the Master who bought them denying, bringing to themselves quick destruction,

Now, its your decision if you will deny this clear example of someone who denies Christ, after having been purchased by Him.

The error in this, yet another assumption, is that this refers to believers who later deny Christ. They are false teachers, which even the OT makes mention of. So I reject the notion that this verse is about 'former believers'.

The fact is that Christ died for everyone. And by that fact, He actually "bought" everyone. But we need to understand what He actually bought. He bought the gift of eternal life for everyone, but only gives that gift to those who believe in Him. Is that clear?

That's the only way to understand the verse. There are other views, but I can show from Scripture that Christ did die for everyone.

In case you are questioning the idea of purchase, you would be wise to know that it is speaking of transferring ownership from one individual to another.

Not really. It's about buying something. I know the Greek word. I believe you're exaggerating things somewhat.

Do unbelievers belong to Christ?

I believe that every human being belongs to God, and to His Son. But not in the same way that saved people belong to God.

God is Creator of humanity. So in that undeniable sense, he sure does own everyone. No one is free from Him. Even the devil is owned by God. Because God created him.

 

[Gregg T]

What we see is that when they looked at the serpent on the pole that Moses put up, then they would live. If they were bit again, did they have to look at the pole again?

Neither Num 21 nor Jn 3 refer to being bitten again or not believing afterwards. You impose non-existent contingencies upon God's word, I take it for what is says:

"when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived." Num 21:9b
"everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Jn 3:16b

I do not understand adding a contingecy to God's word, and then basing a belief on what is added. That is what you are doing.

And, they did not look at the pole to live, but a pole with a bronze sepent on it.

 

[FreeGrace]

You keep falling back on your argument that the gifts and calling includes eternal life.

Because they do.

But that's not even what I'm arguing against!!! And I've made that abundantly clear to you.

Then why aren't we on the same page?

So don't EVER use that rebuttal with me again. If you use it again in rebuttal to me I will have no choice but to assume you don't want to face what I'm actually addressing in the passage.

Sheer nonsense. I've faced EVERY type of argument from everyone of the OSNAS group.

Now, address what I am actually challenging Hyper-grace OSAS doctrine with in the passage.

I've already pointed out the error of your perjorative description of eternal security.

Paul says that even though Israel has rejected the Messiah and been cut out of the tree God will still show Israel mercy.

No one has yet shown how this is the "context" for v.29 and God's gifts. Mercy isn't described as a gift of God anywhere in the Bible, and no one can definitely show what these "gifts of God" are from ch 9-11.

Yet, it has been easily shown in 3 places in Romans before 11:29 where Paul specifically describes 3 of God's gifts.

"28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy." (Romans 11:28-31 NASB)

That is the meaning of "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" that, as we can see, Paul himself gives in the passage.

No, I do NOT see anything close to what these "gifts and calling of God" are in this passage. Nor the meaning of them.

But I can show where Paul specifically noted 3 of God's gifts before he penned 11:29.

But Hyper-grace OSAS completely ignores what Paul himself says it means and assigns their own interpretation to it.

First, Paul NEVER explained what he meant by "gifts" in ch 9-11. But he sure did explain what 3 of God's gifts were before 11:29. That's what context is all about. Second, it's OSNAS that's trying to force their own interpretation to it, yet no one can point to what the actual gifts are in ch 11. Because there aren't any such gifts mentioned in ch 9-11.

The only gifts Paul mentions are in 1:11, 3:24, and 5:15,16,17 and 6:23.

No where in the passage does he say it means people who believe but who then stop believing still have the gifts and calling of God.

This is mere speculation and assumption. There are 3 clearly and plainly described gifts of God mentioned beforee 11:29. They are what Paul is talking about. The factis; both God's gifts (3 are specifically noted) and God's call are irrevocable, AND are available to both Jew and Gentile. That's Paul's point.

But he does plainly say that Israel will still receive mercy and not lose out on the gifts and calling of God despite their unbelief.

Huh?? This sounds like "despite their unbelief" they will "not lose out on the gifts and calling of God". So, just what are these "gifts of God" that even unbelievers are going to get??

Paul uses his own salvation to prove that the gifts and calling of God have not been revoked from Israel because of their rejection of Messiah and being cut out of the tree.

Poor analogy. Paul believed in Christ. He never received the gift of eternal life as an unbeliever, which is what was just said.

We see NOTHING to do whatsoever in the passage with a person believing, then not believing, but still having the gifts and calling of God. All one has to do is read the passage to see this.

Correct. What we have very plainly is that God's gifts are irrevocable. And Paul already described 3 of them, all of which apply to 11:29.

If you don't want to answer why OSAS has chosen to ignore what Paul himself says the gifts and calling of God being irrevocable means then just say so.

I've already shown from Paul's own plain words at least 3 of God's gifts that apply to 11:29. So please stop ignoring that.

OSNAS cannot point to any specific "gift of God" that even unbelievers will receive. Which isn't even the point.

And if you fall back on the argument that the 'gifts' include eternal life, which I'm not even arguing against, then I will have to conclude that you simply do not want to face what the passage actually says and talk about it.

With respect, your "argument" falls flat and doesn't actually understand the meaning of 11:29. It includes ALL of God's gifts. Which you seem to agree with. Which then HAS to include eternal life and justification. Because Paul specifically noted those gifts as from God.

So it seems to me that your view is internally contracted. Agreeing with one side of the mouth but denying with the other side.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Because they do.


Then why aren't we on the same page?


Sheer nonsense. I've faced EVERY type of argument from everyone of the OSNAS group.


I've already pointed out the error of your perjorative description of eternal security.


No one has yet shown how this is the "context" for v.29 and God's gifts. Mercy isn't described as a gift of God anywhere in the Bible, and no one can definitely show what these "gifts of God" are from ch 9-11.

Yet, it has been easily shown in 3 places in Romans before 11:29 where Paul specifically describes 3 of God's gifts.


No, I do NOT see anything close to what these "gifts and calling of God" are in this passage. Nor the meaning of them.

But I can show where Paul specifically noted 3 of God's gifts before he penned 11:29.


First, Paul NEVER explained what he meant by "gifts" in ch 9-11. But he sure did explain what 3 of God's gifts were before 11:29. That's what context is all about. Second, it's OSNAS that's trying to force their own interpretation to it, yet no one can point to what the actual gifts are in ch 11. Because there aren't any such gifts mentioned in ch 9-11.

The only gifts Paul mentions are in 1:11, 3:24, and 5:15,16,17 and 6:23.


This is mere speculation and assumption. There are 3 clearly and plainly described gifts of God mentioned beforee 11:29. They are what Paul is talking about. The factis; both God's gifts (3 are specifically noted) and God's call are irrevocable, AND are available to both Jew and Gentile. That's Paul's point.


Huh?? This sounds like "despite their unbelief" they will "not lose out on the gifts and calling of God". So, just what are these "gifts of God" that even unbelievers are going to get??


Poor analogy. Paul believed in Christ. He never received the gift of eternal life as an unbeliever, which is what was just said.


Correct. What we have very plainly is that God's gifts are irrevocable. And Paul already described 3 of them, all of which apply to 11:29.


I've already shown from Paul's own plain words at least 3 of God's gifts that apply to 11:29. So please stop ignoring that.

OSNAS cannot point to any specific "gift of God" that even unbelievers will receive. Which isn't even the point.


With respect, your "argument" falls flat and doesn't actually understand the meaning of 11:29. It includes ALL of God's gifts. Which you seem to agree with. Which then HAS to include eternal life and justification. Because Paul specifically noted those gifts as from God.

So it seems to me that your view is internally contracted. Agreeing with one side of the mouth but denying with the other side.

Are you going to continue to ignore my argument and talk about what I'm not even in disagreement with you about????

Explain how Romans 11:26-30 does not explain what "the gifts and calling of God (eternal life, justification, etc) are irrevocable" means, but instead means what OSAS says it means. Don't talk about what constitutes the gifts and calling. We're not in disagreement about that.

Quote the passage to show that he's not talking about Israel still being able to receive the gifts and calling of God, and that he's saying what you're saying, that once a person believes, but then stops believing, he still has the gifts and calling of God (eternal life, justification, etc.).

Not another word about what constitutes the gifts and calling of God! That's NOT what I'm debating. Show us using the passage that vs. 29 means what OSAS says it means.

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"Then please provide any verse that actually speaks of "denying it (eternal life)". Or how one can "let go" of eternal life".

OSNAS makes many claims, but none that are supported by Scripture."

The difference that it seems you've missed is that I've provided verses that guarantee that those who have believed are sealed IN HIM for the day of redemption. How is that not absolutely clear about eternal security?

Further, Paul described eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23, and 2 others, specifically, and then penned 11:29 about God's gifts being irrevocable. Those who don't see the clear connection just don't want to see it.


To keep things clear here, my point was that one who HAS eternal life cannot get rid of it by any means.


The error in this, yet another assumption, is that this refers to believers who later deny Christ. They are false teachers, which even the OT makes mention of. So I reject the notion that this verse is about 'former believers'.

The fact is that Christ died for everyone. And by that fact, He actually "bought" everyone. But we need to understand what He actually bought. He bought the gift of eternal life for everyone, but only gives that gift to those who believe in Him. Is that clear?

That's the only way to understand the verse. There are other views, but I can show from Scripture that Christ did die for everyone.


Not really. It's about buying something. I know the Greek word. I believe you're exaggerating things somewhat.


I believe that every human being belongs to God, and to His Son. But not in the same way that saved people belong to God.

God is Creator of humanity. So in that undeniable sense, he sure does own everyone. No one is free from Him. Even the devil is owned by God. Because God created him.

The problem is you do not seem to understand what sealed is. That's ok, there are a lot of people who do not understand. Lots of people think that its like God takes us and puts us in a jar. That's just not what the word means. It simply means that we are 'marked', its a sign of provably - a sign that lets us know that our inheritance is guaranteed. What you seem to keep leaving out(maybe you really don't see it?) is that we have not acquired possession of it yet.

You deny that the clear passage I posted plainly states that they denied Christ. Unless you want to say there is another Master who buys us? Just telling me that I did not post a verse stating it may seem like it is proving your point, but I assure you all it does is show your not actually reading the text.

You say you reject what Peter is saying, when Peter clearly states these false teachers deny the Master(who other than Christ) who bought them. It sounds like you think Peter is talking about OT people? Which again, just shows you are not studying the text. Peter is showing us that just as it happened in the OT, so it will happen in our time. What is so telling about this, which may be why you want to reject it, is that the false Prophets that arose in the OT came from among the people - the same people that God clearly states He saved from the land of Egypt.

I believe Christ died for everyone also. Anyone who will believe in Him, He then becomes their Master. Unless, of course, you can prove that He is called the Master of the person who does not believe?

Still yet, we have not determined that you can prove from the Bible that a person cannot leave Christ. I still challenge you to show me a passage that states "you can never leave Christ, and you can never give up your right to eternal life". Hey, look, if you post a passage that states these things then I will never post another word.

 

[FreeGrace]

That is the meaning of "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" that, as we can see, Paul himself gives in the passage. But Hyper-grace OSAS completely ignores what Paul himself says it means and assigns their own interpretation to it. No where in the passage does he say it means people who believe but who then stop believing still have the gifts and calling of God. But he does plainly say that Israel will still receive mercy and not lose out on the gifts and calling of God despite their unbelief.

Paul uses his own salvation to prove that the gifts and calling of God have not been revoked from Israel because of their rejection of Messiah and being cut out of the tree. We see NOTHING to do whatsoever in the passage with a person believing, then not believing, but still having the gifts and calling of God. All one has to do is read the passage to see this.

This suggests that "gifts and calling" are only available, or that the gift itself is promise, but as yet undefined by OSNAS.

The gifts are specific, and Paul specifically noted 3 of them. They ARE included in 11:29.

Until OSNAS can actually define these gifts, they have no point to make. What, specifically, is irrevocable?

 

[Nathan]

Neither Num 21 nor Jn 3 refer to being bitten again or not believing afterwards. You impose non-existent contingencies upon God's word, I take it for what is says:

"when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived." Num 21:9b
"everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Jn 3:16b

I do not understand adding a contingecy to God's word, and then basing a belief on what is added. That is what you are doing.

And, they did not look at the pole to live, but a pole with a bronze sepent on it.

I'm not sure you are taking it for what it says. I am not imposing non-existent contingencies, I am making a valid point. It clearly states if they were bitten, then they had to look at the bronze serpent to be healed. I simply am stating that it does not say they only had to look once. Sometimes we miss what it is saying when we try to impose our own idea's of what it says.

They lived for that moment, but then they were kept from the promise land. I think that you miss that point. You are trying to say that because that one time when they were saved from immediate death, then that means they were saved from all death.

Christ is using the representation to show that it is not by works someone is saved, but through belief. I think you are trying to make it back into works saying that because they did it one time, then their 'work' of belief is done. That's not the context of the passage at all.

You have to ask yourself, if you want to really be truthful to the text, did those who were saved from death that one time also be saved from death other times because of it? And ultimately, did they inherit the promise?

Or, do we see that there were other plagues that killed some even after they were healed from the serpent bite. And do we see that only two men, who were alive during the time of the serpent bite, entered into the promise?

I think we do injustice to ourselves, those who read our posts, and to the text when we make something from a passage that is just not there. Jesus said;

Jhn 3:14-15
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life

Jesus was speaking about how He was going to die, and how people will believe in Him - and what the outcome of the belief they have in Him is.

What you do not see in this passage, is that someone has to just have a moment of belief in Him. To say it is a moment of belief is interposing teaching that is not present.

 

[FreeGrace]

Are you going to continue to ignore my argument and talk about what I'm not even in disagreement with you about????

I have already shown your argument to be false.

Explain how Romans 11:26-30 does not explain what "the gifts and calling of God (eternal life, justification, etc) are irrevocable" means, but instead means what OSAS says it means. Don't talk about what constitutes the gifts and calling. We're not in disagreement about that.

Then why is there any disagreement about what the gift of eternal life being irrevocable means?? Why the huge hang-up with that?

Irrevocable means just that; it will not be, or can be, revoked. That screams eternal security.

How can the irrevocable gift of eternal life be lost, if it is truly irrevocable? Please explain that.

Quote the passage to show that he's not talking about Israel still being able to receive the gifts and calling of God

This only treats the gifts as something available, or possible. But the gifts are actual things, not just a promise of some things.

and that he's saying what you're saying, that once a person believes, but then stops believing, he still has the gifts and calling of God (eternal life, justification, etc.).

The meaning of "irrevocable" means just that. The gift of eternal life is not, nor can be, revoked. Period.

Not another word about what constitutes the gifts and calling of God! That's NOT what I'm debating. Show us using the passage that vs. 29 means what OSAS says it means.

The meaning is clear, if one only understands what "irrevocable" means.

I'm at least glad you're admitting that the gifts mentioned in 11:29 do include the gift of eternal life. That's a start, at least. Some on your side have vigorously tried to disassociate the gift of eternal life from the gifts of God that are irrevocable.

So, please explain how an irrevocable gift can be lost. And provide Scripture that uses plain language, not parables.

 

[Gregg T]

Here is the point we must not look past. The one time they looked at the bronze serpent did not continually save them over and over. There were people there who were saved at that time which later died. And none, but the two men who stayed faithful, entered into the promise land.

That line of reasoning would indicate Moses did not have eternal life, as he died in the wilderness and did not enter into the promised land.

 

[Nathan]

This suggests that "gifts and calling" are only available, or that the gift itself is promise, but as yet undefined by OSNAS.

The gifts are specific, and Paul specifically noted 3 of them. They ARE included in 11:29.

Until OSNAS can actually define these gifts, they have no point to make. What, specifically, is irrevocable?

If you look at the context of the letter Paul writes you will see exactly what is irrevocable.

Rom 9:4-5
They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

 

[FreeGrace]

The problem is you do not seem to understand what sealed is.

lol. I know exactly what it is. The indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit is God's seal upon those who have believed, as a mark of God's own possession.

What do you think it is?

That's ok, there are a lot of people who do not understand. Lots of people think that its like God takes us and puts us in a jar. That's just not what the word means.

That isn't my view at all. Not even close. Apparently you've not understand my position at all, if that's your view of my position.

It simply means that we are 'marked', its a sign of provably - a sign that lets us know that our inheritance is guaranteed. [/QUOT]
Thank you. End of story. Our inheritance is guaranteed. Eternal security.

What you seem to keep leaving out(maybe you really don't see it?) is that we have not acquired possession of it yet.

I've already shown that this is a gross misreading of the verse. The "possession" is the believer. And we aren't "acquired", and that word does not occur in the verse.

You deny that the clear passage I posted plainly states that they denied Christ.

I've denied nothing. Again, more misunderstanding.

You say you reject what Peter is saying

Wow. More gross misunderstanding. I never said I reject what Peter said. I reject the your view of what you misread.

when Peter clearly states these false teachers deny the Master(who other than Christ) who bought them.

Maybe it would be a good idea to go back and read my post, but with more care.

It sounds like you think Peter is talking about OT people?

He sure made reference to false teachers in the OT:
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Peter 2

The phrase in red refers back to the OT, by the use of the past tense "there were". And then Peter uses the future tense "there will be" to indicate more false teachers are coming. Are you suggesting that there were no false prophets or teachers mentioned in the OT???

Which again, just shows you are not studying the text. Peter is showing us that just as it happened in the OT, so it will happen in our time.

Well, you're not really reading my posts. That is exactly my point.

What is so telling about this, which may be why you want to reject it, is that the false Prophets that arose in the OT came from among the people - the same people that God clearly states He saved from the land of Egypt.

He saved everyone from the land of Egypt. That's not in view here. The entire OT is in view, in which there were many false prophets (teachers).

I believe Christ died for everyone also. Anyone who will believe in Him, He then becomes their Master. Unless, of course, you can prove that He is called the Master of the person who does not believe?

I've already explained that.

Still yet, we have not determined that you can prove from the Bible that a person cannot leave Christ.

It is proven by Eph 1:13,14. Those who have believed are sealed IN HIM, guaranteed for the day of redemption. That screams eternal security. We're sealed IN HIM.

And there's no verse that states the opposite, so it can't occur.

I still challenge you to show me a passage that states "you can never leave Christ, and you can never give up your right to eternal life".

Ha. The challenge is easily met by my challenge to show ANY passage that states that one sealed by the Holy Spirit can be unsealed, or that one can "give up your right to eternal life".

That is silly. We HAVE eternal life when we believe, because Jesus said so in John 5:24.

To "have a right" to something doesn't necessarily mean one already has that something. So your statement is quite misleading.

So, the burden of proof is on OSNAS to show that one can actually lose God's irrevocable gift of eternal life.

Hey, look, if you post a passage that states these things then I will never post another word.

The opposite will be true if anyone can show any passage that addresses the sealing of the Holy Spirit and teaches that one can be unsealed for any reason.

I know OSNAS has lots of lists and reasons why one can lose salvation. So show just one verse that addresses how a sealed one who has believed (simple occurrence) can be unsealed.

That would absolutely settle the issue.

 

[Nathan]

That line of reasoning would indicate Moses did not have eternal life, as he died in the wilderness and did not enter into the promised land.

I think that you miss the point. Those things that happened to them are examples to us, not parallel representations.

I am not saying that those not entering into the promise land are the ones which do not get eternal life.

I am saying that their one time belief, that saved them one time from God's wrath, did not save them from the next - so on and so on. What I am saying is that the representation given in John, by Jesus, is not saying a one time belief in Christ results in eternal life - just like a one time belief in the bronze serpent did not result in a ongoing safety from death for them.

What I am saying is that the very next time they were 'tempted' and sinned, that last time where they believed in the bronze serpent did not keep them from dying this time. What I am saying is that Jesus makes intersession for us continually before the Father - for those who believe in Him.

Heb 7:23-25
The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

 

[FreeGrace]

If you look at the context of the letter Paul writes you will see exactly what is irrevocable.

Rom 9:4-5
They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Seriously? How can anyone link 9:4,5 to 11:29? What a huge leap. In fact, those who read carefully will find that Paul makes NO MENTION of anything underlined (by you) as described as gifts.

And once again, the "gifts" mentioned in 11:29 are NOT just promises of something. The gifts are real. Not promises.

And OSNAS cannot define these gifts.

While the underlined things do belong to Israel, that doesn't automatically mean they are gifts. The ONLY WAY to understand what Paul means by "the gifts of God" are to look for what Paul himself defined as gifts that are from God.

And he did so, 3 times:
1. spiritual gifts in 1:11
2. justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17
3. eternal life in 6:23

He certainly had these 3 gifts in mind for 11:29.