Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[Nathan]

So they are sealed. I agree.


And in your opinion 1 Tim 3:6 is a plain verse that shows believer's can lose/reject this seal?


So a younger widow who has believed and is sealed with the Spirit, then later has passion for a spouse and marriage that draws them away from Christ, will incur the same condemnation as the devil, which is eternal torment in the LoF and being unsealed from The Spirit?

Is this just for the widows that were enrolled and then were drawn away from Christ? Or is it for me and you also? If we believed in Christ then set our passions on our spouse and Children above the Lord.........we can expect the same condemnation as the devil?

New American Standard Bible
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

1 Timothy is a clear and plain passage that warns us what the result of pride can do. So, I believe it is a "plain" verse that shows us believers can turn away from the Spirit - who is the seal.

Anyone who chooses anything over Christ cannot expect to receive the crown of life. I cannot judge a persons true state, but as Paul said - those who abandon the faith will incur condemnation. That is a matter of fact for anyone who leaves Christ - I suppose in those days Paul saw that it would be a greater temptation for young widows.

Luk 18:29
And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who will not receive many times more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Jhn 12:25-26
Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.

We must not forget, that EVERY sin that a man commits will be forgiven him - but the one sin that comes from a heart full of pride - and that is the rejection of Christ forgiveness that comes through the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

 

[gr8grace3]

1 Timothy is a clear and plain passage that warns us what the result of pride can do. So, I believe it is a "plain" verse that shows us believers can turn away from the Spirit - who is the seal.

I understand your position. I just disagree.

A believer who falls into pride is setting himself up for divine discipline. And 1 Tim 3:6 is about teachers and one who has authority in the local assembly. So, the discipline will be HARSH if need be. And 1 Tim 3:6 is talking about the sin unto death for a teacher that constantly/habitually misuses his gift. And God uses satan to administer the sin unto (physical/fleshly) death.

1 Cor 5:5~~New American Standard Bible
I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Anyone who chooses anything over Christ cannot expect to receive the crown of life. I cannot judge a persons true state, but as Paul said - those who abandon the faith will incur condemnation. That is a matter of fact for anyone who leaves Christ - I suppose in those days Paul saw that it would be a greater temptation for young widows.

Just be clear and to the point please.

A grieving young widow who trusts Christ for their salvation and is sealed and enrolled in the church. And later looks to a spouse and a family for their fulfillment, which draws them away from Christ will incur the same condemnation as satan?

New American Standard Bible
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


.......And not all believers will have the crown of life. That is a reward. Eternal life is the gift.

 

[Jim Parker]

"No one" is an adjective in John 10:29, not the subject of the sentence.
From: "The Elements of New Testament Greek" by Jeremy Duff, David Wenham:
"The subject is the noun (or pronoun) that is uppermost in mind when the sentence is formed and is the focus of attention."
Start reading it for free: http://a.co/3o8IEC0

John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can seize them from the Father’s hand. ​

"My father" is the subject of the sentence.

(1) the word "one" is an adjective when it is used as to give more information about a noun.
For example; "One man's trash is another man's treasure."
In this case, the word "one" modifies (refers to, tells something about) the word "man's."

(2) The word "one" is a pronoun when it is used as the subject of a sentence or a clause.
For example: "One must not play with fire."
In this case, the word "one" is used as the subject of the sentence.

The verse "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can seize them from the Father’s hand." is a sentence made up of three clauses.

1) My father is greater than all
In this clause, the subject is the noun "father."

2) who has given them to me
In this clause, the subject is the relative pronoun, "who".

3) no one can seize them from my father's hand.
In this clause, the subject is the pronoun, "one." (Gr: οὐδεὶς, oudeis Strong's # g3762 )
According to Strong's, οὐδεὶς is a pronoun, not an adjective.

Strong's definitions of the word are: οὐδείς oudeís, oo-dice'; from G3761 and G1520; not even one (man, woman or thing), i.e. none, nobody, nothing:—any (man), aught, man, neither any (thing), never (man), no (man), none (+ of these things), not (any, at all, -thing), nought.

The Greek word for the adjective "one" (as in "One day this will all be yours.") is μία (mia, Strong's # g3391)
And example of it's use as an adjective is found at Mat 5:18:
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away,
one (μία, mia) jot or one (μία, mia) tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
In this verse the word "one" (μία, mia) provides information about ("modifies") the word "jot" and the word "tittle" so, it is an adjective.

But at John 10:29, the English word "one" (οὐδείς oudeís,) is a pronoun.

Hope that helps.

iakov the fool

 

[FreeGrace]

This was my question:
"My question for you is this: where is any Scripture that addresses the specific sealing with the Holy Spirit and teaches that God will break that seal, or undo that seal, or un-seal that seal? Where?"

When Paul was writing Timothy about what to look for in a overseer, he made a very direct statement - very "plain".

<sigh> Why do I get more questions to my questions. 1 Tim 3:6 doesn't answer my question. One has to assume "condemnation of the devil" means loss of salvation. Believers can be condemned for their behavior without being sent to hell.

It is also the one thing that leads a person to the only sin that is unforgivable.

Pride isn't an unforgivable sin. 1 Tim 3:6 doesn't say that.

 

[FreeGrace]

Seals; one of the uses for a seal , back then, was so the parties involved would know if it had been broken,,

as in 'the guy carrying the mail hadn't peeked ' The term sealed was not like never opened if not opened the messages would not be known by the receiver .

Is this "one of the uses" for the sealing with the Holy Spirit?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Who doesn't easily understand that fellowship can be cut off. Just consider the prodigal son. That's exactly what he did with his father. He cut off fellowship with him."

Fellowship means companionship, camaraderie, a friendly association, brotherhood. There's nothing in the prodigal son parable that speaks of fellowship.

I strongly disagree with this. Of course there is. The son left the father after highly insulting him. How is that "camaraderie, friendly association, etc"?

Define irrevocable.

Can not be revoked.

It's not the gifts that are irrevocable. It's the call of God that is irrevocable.

It's both. Paul said so in plain language.
"for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable." Rom 11:29

The gifts are associated with the call ie. to those who he calls, he gives them gifts.

Where does the Bible say so?

Mere claims do not a doctrine make.

 

[FreeGrace]

I did not use the term "unsealed".

The "seal" of God is His authoritative acknowledgement of His promise to us. This 'seal' is His Spirit in us. If we do not have the Spirit, then the 'seal' is not valid - its not that its "unsealed", it just simply is not existent.

To be clear, the issue is about those who HAVE BEEN sealed IN HIM with the Spirit. Those who never believed have never been sealed, so they aren't an issue.

The issue is about those "having believed" (aorist): can they be unsealed? And if so, where does the Bible specifically say so about that specific seal.

Again, the 'seal' is the Spirit. A person without the Spirit does not have the 'seal'.

We call them unbelievers. They have never believed.

 

[reba]

Is this "one of the uses" for the sealing with the Holy Spirit?

Where did i say that ?
Another use for seal was a king would use his seal stamp very often a ring.. to let others know the decree was not fake news..

 

[Jim Parker]

The problem is that the charge of my not understanding grammar wasn't explained. Just a claim made.

Please explain how I don't understand the grammar, if I don't. Don't just throw claims around.

See my post # 1162

 

[Jim Parker]

This was my question:
"My question for you is this: where is any Scripture that addresses the specific sealing with the Holy Spirit

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

and teaches that God will break that seal, or undo that seal, or un-seal that seal? Where?"

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

God doesn't break the seal; the fallen-away ex-believer does.

 

[chessman]

Hope that helps.

No it's not helpful at all. In fact, it's inaccurate as I've already pointed out with evidence from two different sources (one of which is a Greek textbook you recommended) showing your claim about G3762 is erroneous.

Here's your inaccurate statements underlined:

... no one can seize them from my father's hand.
In this clause, the subject is the pronoun, "one." (Gr: οὐδεὶς, oudeis Strong's # g3762)


According to Strong's, οὐδεὶς is a pronoun, not an adjective.

http://biblehub.com/str/greek/3762.htm

The Elements of New Testament Greek" by Jeremy Duff, David Wenham

http://a.co/cQrAKzG

According to The Elements of New Testament Greek" by Jeremy Duff, David Wenham and Biblehub, g3762 is an adjective part of speech.
The Greek word "one" is not even in this verse.
We aren't talking about g3391.

 

[Jim Parker]

No it's not helpful at all. In fact, it's inaccurate as I've already pointed out with evidence from two different sources (one of which is a Greek textbook you recommended) showing your claim about G3762 is erroneous.
Here's your inaccurate statements underlined:
http://biblehub.com/str/greek/3762.htm
The Elements of New Testament Greek" by Jeremy Duff, David Wenham
http://a.co/cQrAKzG
According to The Elements of New Testament Greek" by Jeremy Duff, David Wenham and
Biblehub, g3762 is an adjective part of speech.
The Greek word "one" is not even in this verse.
We aren't talking about g3391.

(1) From J.W. Whenham, The Elements of New Testament Greek, p. 127; " 'No one' and 'nothing' is expressed by οὐδεὶς, when used with the indicative..."

(2) Jhn 10:29
English: My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
NT Greek: ὁ πατήρ μου ὃ δέδωκέν μοι πάντων μεῖζόν ἐστιν καὶ οὐδεὶς (g3762) δύναται ἁρπάζειν ἐκ τῆς χειρὸς τοῦ πατρός

Once again:
Strong's states that (G3762) οὐδεὶς (oudeis) is a pronoun, not an adjective.
If οὐδεὶς is an adjective, then please tell me what it modifies.

The KJV translates Strong's G3762 in the following manner: no man (94x), nothing (68x), none (27x), no (24x), any man (3x), any (3x), man (2x), neither any man (2x), miscellaneous (13x).

A concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New testament, prepared by Barklay M. Newnam, Jr., United Bible Societies, London, translates it as: "no one" (just like in the English translation of the verse); "nothing;" "no;" and "worth nothing; " p. 128

(3) Other uses of οὐδεὶς (oudeis)

Mat 6:24 No man (οὐδεὶς, oudeis) can serve two masters:...
1Jo 4:12 No man (οὐδεὶς, oudeis) hath seen God at any time....
Mat 9:16 And no one (οὐδεὶς, oudeis) puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment,...
Mat 11:27 All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one (οὐδεὶς, oudeis) knows the Son except the Father,...

As I already pointed out, your "Biblehub" resource has got it wrong. But that can happen when you don't go to primary sources.

And it is not just a question of what the Greek word can mean; it is also necessary to understand how the translators have rendered the word.

No one makes οὐδεὶς an adjective.

 

[chessman]

Ok
I tried.

Yes, you tried to claim you are right and Jeremy Duff, David Wenham and Biblehub are wrong.

Then, I guess, claimed Jesus told you to tell me (a Gentile believer in Christ):

‘Go to this people and say:
“Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand;
And seeing you will see, and not perceive;

 

[reba]

not necessarily directed at the last poster Drop the personal attacks. address issues not the other members
do not reply to this post in the thread..

 

[Jim Parker]

Yes, you tried to claim you are right and Jeremy Duff, David Wenham and Biblehub are wrong.

No, just Biblehub.
I did not say that the others got anything wrong.
In fact, I quoted directly from David Wenham's The Elements of New Testament Greek which translates οὐδεὶς, as "no one" and "nothing". Those are not adjectives.

Strong's also says it's a pronoun and lists it's uses in the NT as: no man, nothing, none, no, any man, any, man, neither any man.

But, if you don't want to know; you don't want to know.

Then, I guess, claimed Jesus told you to tell me (a Gentile believer in Christ):

That string of words is not a complete sentence and does not communicate a coherent thought.

 

[MarkT]

I said this:
"Who doesn't easily understand that fellowship can be cut off. Just consider the prodigal son. That's exactly what he did with his father. He cut off fellowship with him."

I strongly disagree with this. Of course there is. The son left the father after highly insulting him. How is that "camaraderie, friendly association, etc"?


Can not be revoked.


It's both. Paul said so in plain language.
"for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable." Rom 11:29


Where does the Bible say so?

Mere claims do not a doctrine make.

Of course the gifts are related to the call. How can they not be? It's one sentence.

The word was sent out. Men were called to the marriage feast, but they decided they had more important things to do. Mt. 22:1-14 Still, Paul says, they were called, and the call of God can not be undone.

 

[chessman]

In fact, I quoted directly from David Wenham's The Elements of New Testament Greek which translates οὐδεὶς, as "no one" and "nothing.

On page 151 (vocabulary of Chapter 13) of this book that you quote the meaning but not the part of speech, the Greek word you are calling a pronoun is listed as a 3rd declension adjective:

"3rd declension adjectives with genitives in G (like ) (26) –true, truthful, genuine (26) –weak, sick (1243) –all, every, whole > (34) –all, every A ? (345) –one, a single 8 (234) –no one, nothing"

Here's a link:

http://a.co/ef340mF

Poof.

 

[Nathan]

I understand your position. I just disagree.

A believer who falls into pride is setting himself up for divine discipline. And 1 Tim 3:6 is about teachers and one who has authority in the local assembly. So, the discipline will be HARSH if need be. And 1 Tim 3:6 is talking about the sin unto death for a teacher that constantly/habitually misuses his gift. And God uses satan to administer the sin unto (physical/fleshly) death.

1 Cor 5:5~~New American Standard Bible
I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Just be clear and to the point please.

A grieving young widow who trusts Christ for their salvation and is sealed and enrolled in the church. And later looks to a spouse and a family for their fulfillment, which draws them away from Christ will incur the same condemnation as satan?

New American Standard Bible
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


.......And not all believers will have the crown of life. That is a reward. Eternal life is the gift.

I would definitely say the condemnation will be harsh. I don't know why you call it discipline when Paul doesn't. There is no where you will ever find a believer being condemned, so I'm not sure why you would try and say such things.

I do not know how I could be any clearer. Not sure why you think I'm not being so. ANYONE(including young grieving widows) who turns away from Christ is going to receive the condemnation that the devil will receive.

I would simple quote Jesus to make this point clear;

Matthew 10:28 (ESV)
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

And then John;

1 John 2
23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.
24 Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he made to us-eternal life.
26 I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you.
27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie-just as it has taught you, abide in him.

 

[Nathan]

This was my question:
"My question for you is this: where is any Scripture that addresses the specific sealing with the Holy Spirit and teaches that God will break that seal, or undo that seal, or un-seal that seal? Where?"

<sigh> Why do I get more questions to my questions. 1 Tim 3:6 doesn't answer my question. One has to assume "condemnation of the devil" means loss of salvation. Believers can be condemned for their behavior without being sent to hell.


Pride isn't an unforgivable sin. 1 Tim 3:6 doesn't say that.

Where does it say that believers will be condemned?

What is the condemnation of the devil? Do you honestly believe God will just punish him a little, and that he will still be in heaven? Where does God say such things?

 

[Nathan]

To be clear, the issue is about those who HAVE BEEN sealed IN HIM with the Spirit. Those who never believed have never been sealed, so they aren't an issue.

The issue is about those "having believed" (aorist): can they be unsealed? And if so, where does the Bible specifically say so about that specific seal.


We call them unbelievers. They have never believed.

I am not sure you really understand what Gods seal is. It is not a lid He puts on us. It is His Spirit.

So the real question is can a believer, who once had the Spirit, no longer have the Spirit?

Hebrews 10
26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people."
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings,
33 sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated.
34 For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one.
35 Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.
37 For, "Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay;
38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him."
39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.