Worthy to re-post. Condemn does not always mean eternal condemnation in the LoF.
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Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works
- Thread starter Jim Parker
- Start date
chessman
Member
How effective is the Lord, in your opinion, at His "discipline so that we may not be condemned along with the world"?
Nathan
Member
The "judgement" of James 3:1 is not the judgement of condemnation that the devil receives. The judgement of James is there regardless of the persons age in Christ. Paul was warning of a different nature, specifically of those who are young in Christ, and speaking of a judgement of condemnation - not the same judgement of James. Same word, different context.
There is no condemnation for believers. It is wrong to say God hands us over to satan for condemnation. There is no Biblical evidence for this and is contrary to what the Bible says. Its wrong, and should not be said.
Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Nathan
Member
I have no way of knowing the answer to this. I can personally state He was effective with me, even when I resisted it - *at first. I should add, that there is no doubt that there came a time when I was given the absolute undeniable choice to either submit or not.
He will only discipline those who are in Christ though. He does not discipline those who are not in Christ.
Heb 12:3-8
Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.” It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
The point is, we should submit to the discipline and not resist it, when it happens. I am 100% convinced that He will discipline all His children, and never let one wonder too far without submitting them to discipline.
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Nathan
Member
Here is the simple and truthful reality that seems to be missed from the passage in 1 Timothy.
If Paul was trying to indicate that the person was going to be 'judged' by God using the devil, then it would be said in that way somehow. But that is not even close to how Paul said it.
Paul was said, very specifically, that there is a great chance that the believer could become puffed up and fall into the same condemnation as the devil.
1 Timothy 3:6 NKJV
not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.
There is simply NO Biblical proof to assert that a believer can be condemned by the devil. Zero. A believer has been transferred from the subjection of the devil, to the subjection of Christ. Therefore, the devil has no authority to judge or condemn a believer - none.
chessman
Member
Sure we do. All that's necessary is to simply look at, read and believe the reason "for" the verses you just quoted (leaving out verse 2, "for" some reason:
Hebrews 12:1-2 Therefore, since we also have such a great cloud of witnesses surrounding us, putting aside every weight and the sin that so easily ensnares us, let us run with patient endurance the race that has been set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the originator and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, disregarding the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. For...
If he said believers and unbelievers are people, that would relate them. A believer is a person who believes. An unbeliever is a person who does not believe.
But in this case the gifts and the call are related as they both come from God and one is a consequence of the other. ie. those who hear the call of God and believe in his Son are justified. And according to Jesus, the Father will give good things to those who ask him. Mt. 7:11
So I said the gifts are related to the call. But if you treat the gifts as being unrelated to the call, then it becomes a meaningless statement.
Nathan
Member
I am not sure I understand how this relates to your question? How does the 2nd verse explain the effectiveness of God's discipline?
I see that it explains the means of the discipline and the reason for it, but not the effectiveness of it - unless that's not what you meant to ask?
dirtfarmer
Member
hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here
In your last statement, " the devil has no authority to judge or condemn a believer - none". Is it just the believer that the devils has no authority to judge? A new thread would probably be best and not over throw this thread.
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Nathan
Member
Interesting question. The devil does have authority over unbelievers, so if you were to divide the human race between those who believe - and those who do not - then it could be said that it is just the believer he has no authority over. And so if he has no authority over someone, then he cannot judge them. Right?
1 Tim 3:6 is not saying that the recent convert who becomes puffed will receive the same judgement as the devil. Some translation's got that wrong.
Fall into condemnation ( εἰς κρίμα ἐμπέσῃ )
Κρίμα in N.T. usually means judgment. The word for condemnation is κατάκριμα. See especially Romans 5:16, where the two are sharply distinguished. Comp. Matthew 7:2; Acts 24:25; Romans 2:2; Romans 5:18; 1 Corinthians 6:7. However, κρίμα occasionally shades off into the meaning condemnation, as Romans 3:8; James 3:1. See on go to law, 1 Corinthians 6:7, and see on 1 Corinthians 11:29. Κρίμα is a Pauline word; but the phrase ἐμπιπτεῖν εἰς κρίμα tofall into judgment is found only here.
Of the devil ( τοῦ διαβόλου )
See on Matthew 4:1, and see on Satan, 1 Thessalonians 2:18. Paul uses διάβολος only twice, Ephesians 4:27; Ephesians 6:11. Commonly Satan. The use of διάβολος as an adjective is peculiar to the Pastorals (see 1 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 3:3; Titus 2:3), and occurs nowhere else in N.T., and not in lxx. The phrase judgment of the devil probably means the accusing judgment of the devil, and not the judgment passed upon the devil. In Revelation 12:10Satan is called the accuser of the brethren. In 1 Corinthians 5:5; 1 Timothy 1:20, men are given over to Satan for judgment. In 1 Timothy 3:7the genitive διαβόλου isclearly subjective. In this chapter it appears that a Christian can fall into the reproach of the devil (comp. Judges 1:9; 2 Peter 2:11), the snare of the devil (comp. 2 Timothy 2:26), and the judgment of the devil.
https://www.studylight.org/commentary/1-timothy/3-6.html
dirtfarmer
Member
hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here
I started a tread on the authority of the devil in Bible study forum. Don't want to high jack this thread.
chessman
Member
The Lord's discipline is done to us, in order to effect perfect faith.
Hebrews 12:2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the originator and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, disregarding the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
The very faith He originated, He perfects so that we share in His holiness.
Hebrews 12:10 For they disciplined us for a few days according to what seemed appropriate to them, but he does so for our benefit, in order that we can have a share in his holiness.
No matter how many days it takes, His discipline is 100% effective. Unlike an earthly father's discipline, the Lord's discipline is perfect in it's effectiveness. Even if it takes the ultimate discipline (death), the Lord finishes what He started.
Nathan
Member
lol Ok, now the translations are wrong. Gotcha.
I have no doubt, that someone who has a predisposed position, will write a commentary that seeks to tone down the truth being told by Paul. I put zero faith in the commentary of another person. I think the words written are plain enough to see.
Interestingly enough I was just noticing 2 Timothy 2:26. Your commentary states that it is speaking of a Christian? How, in the world, can someone actually believe that the devil can 'capture' a person who is a believer, and make them do his will?
2Ti 2:24
And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
If a person was really wondering what is said in 1 Timothy 3:6, then a good interlinear will show what was exactly said.
Nathan
Member
So then someone cannot fall away from Christ?
I agree that His discipline is effective, but it is only effective to those who submit to it.
Just like the son who leaves his fathers house cannot submit to his fathers discipline, so too if we leave Christ we cannot submit to His discipline.
Psa 81:11-16
“But my people did not listen to my voice;
Israel would not submit to me.
So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts,
to follow their own counsels.
Oh, that my people would listen to me,
that Israel would walk in my ways!
I would soon subdue their enemies
and turn my hand against their foes.
Those who hate the LORD would cringe toward him,
and their fate would last forever.
But he would feed you with the finest of the wheat,
and with honey from the rock I would satisfy you.”
Rom 10:1-4
Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them[Jews] is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
When a person is full of pride, then they do not see the need to submit to God. God's discipline is only effective to the transformation of a persons soul, when they submit to it.
Yeah, I should be more clear. What Greek word is used for 'same' In 1 Tim 3:6?. If you notice, some translation's don't have the word 'same' in their renditions.
We are both believers. Saved Christians. One of us is captured in a lie of satan and doing his will......because loss of salvation is a lie from the pit or eternal security is a lie from the pit.
One of us is doing satans will. Because one of us is wrong, and spreading a lie. Ignorance is no excuse.
Nathan
Member
Isa 30:8-18
And now, go, write it before them on a tablet
and inscribe it in a book,
that it may be for the time to come
as a witness forever.
For they are a rebellious people,
lying children,
children unwilling to hear
the instruction of the LORD;
who say to the seers, “Do not see,”
and to the prophets, “Do not prophesy to us what is right;
speak to us smooth things,
prophesy illusions,
leave the way, turn aside from the path,
let us hear no more about the Holy One of Israel.”
Therefore thus says the Holy One of Israel,
“Because you despise this word
and trust in oppression and perverseness
and rely on them,
therefore this iniquity shall be to you
like a breach in a high wall, bulging out, and about to collapse,
whose breaking comes suddenly, in an instant;
and its breaking is like that of a potter’s vessel
that is smashed so ruthlessly
that among its fragments not a shard is found
with which to take fire from the hearth,
or to dip up water out of the cistern.”
For thus said the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel,
“In returning and rest you shall be saved;
in quietness and in trust shall be your strength.”
But you were unwilling,
and you said,
“No! We will flee upon horses”;
therefore you shall flee away;
and, “We will ride upon swift steeds”;
therefore your pursuers shall be swift.
A thousand shall flee at the threat of one;
at the threat of five you shall flee,
till you are left
like a flagstaff on the top of a mountain,
like a signal on a hill.
Therefore the LORD waits to be gracious to you,
and therefore he exalts himself to show mercy to you.
For the LORD is a God of justice;
blessed are all those who wait for him.
Just as the father desires for the child to come home, so too does God desires for His children to come home to Him. Those who come to Him will not be turned away, but will receive His discipline as all true children receive.
And now, go, write it before them on a tablet
and inscribe it in a book,
that it may be for the time to come
as a witness forever.
For they are a rebellious people,
lying children,
children unwilling to hear
the instruction of the LORD;
who say to the seers, “Do not see,”
and to the prophets, “Do not prophesy to us what is right;
speak to us smooth things,
prophesy illusions,
leave the way, turn aside from the path,
let us hear no more about the Holy One of Israel.”
Therefore thus says the Holy One of Israel,
“Because you despise this word
and trust in oppression and perverseness
and rely on them,
therefore this iniquity shall be to you
like a breach in a high wall, bulging out, and about to collapse,
whose breaking comes suddenly, in an instant;
and its breaking is like that of a potter’s vessel
that is smashed so ruthlessly
that among its fragments not a shard is found
with which to take fire from the hearth,
or to dip up water out of the cistern.”
For thus said the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel,
“In returning and rest you shall be saved;
in quietness and in trust shall be your strength.”
But you were unwilling,
and you said,
“No! We will flee upon horses”;
therefore you shall flee away;
and, “We will ride upon swift steeds”;
therefore your pursuers shall be swift.
A thousand shall flee at the threat of one;
at the threat of five you shall flee,
till you are left
like a flagstaff on the top of a mountain,
like a signal on a hill.
Therefore the LORD waits to be gracious to you,
and therefore he exalts himself to show mercy to you.
For the LORD is a God of justice;
blessed are all those who wait for him.
Just as the father desires for the child to come home, so too does God desires for His children to come home to Him. Those who come to Him will not be turned away, but will receive His discipline as all true children receive.
Nathan
Member
I will not take offense to your statement. I am not ignorant of the schemes of the devil.
There is no Greek word used for "same" in 1 Timothy 3:6. It is the order, and function, of the words used that show it is the 'same' condemnation of the devil. An interlinear shows this, and certain translations include the word 'same' in order to show that it is what the original language meant.
The 'order' of the Greek words written;
and not
a new convert,
so that
that he will not
become conceited
into
the condemnation
and fall
incurred by the devil.
Nathan
Member
Point being, the devil cannot 'make' us fall. He can also not 'capture' a believer in Christ.
Jhn 10:29
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
The point was not to offend. The point is that we ALL have areas that we are deceived in......as saved,born-again believers. And I will readily admit that I am ignorant of some of the schemes of the devil.
Can you please give the source for your order of the Greek words? There are some small discrepancies compared to my references.