Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[Nathan]

Its the same seal, but we can't compare the same seal? Seems a stretch to me.

If God sealed His Son with His seal. And believers who HAVE believed are sealed with the SAME seal......the logical conclusion would be if that seal could be broken, Christ could be unsealed.

You defined the seal, look back at your post. It is a 'mark', a sign of ownership, stamp of approval - what 'breaking' is there of these things?

If you put your seal on something you approve, then later disapprove of it, do you leave the seal of approval on it?

You would not still have a seal of approval on something you no longer approved of. It would be contradicting yourself. That's impossible with God.

 

[Nathan]

Why even mention the call of God if the call of God is not related to the gifts? He calls. He gives life.

The shepherd calls his sheep. John 10:3
They hear his voice. John 10:27
He gives them life. John 10:28

The call of God is consequential. It doesn't return empty.
Isaiah 55:11
so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

It can not be undone.

What sense does it make to say a gift can be undone? How do you 'do' or 'undo' a gift?

Let's just ask a real simple, logical and reasoning, question.

Does God approve of people who deny Christ?

Would He approve of a believer denying Gods ownership of him?

 

[ezra]

We are to continue, remain, abide in the truth that Jesus Christ taught.

He who remains, abides, and continues in Christ's teaching, has both the Son and the Father.

• Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

• Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9 KJV

• Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9 NASB

• every one who is transgressing, and is not remaining in the teaching of the Christ, hath not God; he who is remaining in the teaching of the Christ, this one hath both the Father and the Son; 2 John 1:9 YLT

• 4 I rejoiced greatly that I have found some of your children walking in truth, as we received commandment from the Father. 5 And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another. 6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it. 2 John 1:4-6

• 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:11-12

• 24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 1 John 2:24

If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son.



JLB

your right key word is abide in a tree branch can not survive on its own nor can the fruit it produces if one is not abiding i doubt they ever was in the body . ONLY HAD a out of Body experience. this is a warning to all of us and at one time another we have all drifted away from and like the prodigal come to our senses :
Hebrews 2:1-4New International Version (NIV)
Warning to Pay Attention
2 We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For since the message spoken was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy SpiritI)" distributed according to his will. i preached this sunday night we like to use the testimony i may not be where i should be ( in the will of God} but i aint where i use to be ..it takes strict discipline to walk the walk 24/7 . we talk the talk but fail the walk. of course i am sure there are some who say they have never drifted . next they will say they turned the water into wine

 

[Jim Parker]

nor do all adjectives "modify" nouns. Some complement them.

OK
What noun is it complementing?

 

[chessman]

Anywhere else?

Yes.

How do you recon that death is discipline?

Because Scripture says so.

If I was having my son rake leaves, and told him that when he was done he could come inside, and he kept on goofing off - what discipline is he receiving by brining him inside?

You are not the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, the tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made by hands, eternal in the heavens. ​

You reckon Paul knew a little about the Scriptures?

 

[Jim Parker]

So, in order to determine which noun this adjective is complementing, it is necessary to look at the sentence (or clause) in which the word is being used. Its case, number and gender MUST match the noun it complements (again per Duff/Wenham).

So, determine which noun it is an let me know.
So far, you have not done so.

With all you cut and pastes from references that you find on the web and think that they are applicable, you have completely missed the obvious: If "one" is an adjective then the clause has no subject and is meaningless.
Jhn 10:29
“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and
one (the number 1) is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
So, according to you, the number "1" is able to snatch a believer out of the Father's hand.

That sounds pretty silly to me but that's what you are insisting it says because you think "one" is an adjective.

Brilliant

 

[MarkT]

Let's just ask a real simple, logical and reasoning, question.

Does God approve of people who deny Christ?

Would He approve of a believer denying Gods ownership of him?

Of course not.

 

[Nathan]

Yes.


Because Scripture says so.


You are not the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, the tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made by hands, eternal in the heavens. ​

You reckon Paul knew a little about the Scriptures?

Where do the "Scriptures" say that death is a disciplinary action of God?

I do think Paul knew a little about the Scriptures. I am one of those who thinks Paul wrote Hebrews, but regardless, whoever wrote it gave us exactly what discipline is and what it is used for.

Hebrews 12:11 (ESV) 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

How is this accomplished by bringing death on someone?

 

[Jim Parker]

Let's say a son (a belever) needs and receives the ultimate discipline (death),

Death is not a part of discipline.
Discipline is the practice of training people to obey rules or a code of behavior, using punishment to correct disobedience or training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character.

Death brings an end to obedience, training, correction, molding, punishment and perfecting.

Discipline is used for the express purpose of achieving a desired outcome.
Death ends discipline and makes any further benefit impossible.
Death can also be used to prevent further damage being done or to end suffering as is done when an animal is put down to end its suffering.

But the idea that death is a form of discipline is complete nonsense.

 

[Jim Parker]

How do you 'do' or 'undo' a gift?

You throw it in the trash.

 

[chessman]

Where do the "Scriptures" say that death is a disciplinary action of God?

1 Corinthians 11:22, 29-32 For do you not have houses for eating and drinking? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who do not have anything? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you! For the one who eats and drinks, if he does not recognize the body, eats and drinks judgment against himself. Because of this, many are weak and sick among you, and quite a few have died. But if we were evaluating ourselves, we would not be judged. But if we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined, in order that we will not be condemned with the world.​

How is this accomplished by bringing death on someone?

For a son, it brings him/her home.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, the tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made by hands, eternal in the heavens.​

 

[Jim Parker]

But if we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined, in order that we will not be condemned with the world.

Discipline has the purpose of correcting future behavior.
If someone is killed, he will have no future behavior.
So, if the LORD kills some misbehaving believer, it is not for his discipline but, possibly, to prevent sin which leads to eternal death.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, the tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made by hands, eternal in the heavens.

IF you read that verse in context, you will find that it has absolutely nothing to do with the LORD using death as a means of discipline.

The whole passage (the whole thought conveyed) is:
2Co 5:1-5 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

You have inappropriately assumed that passage says something about death as discipline. It does not.

 

[Nathan]

1 Corinthians 11:22, 29-32 For do you not have houses for eating and drinking? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who do not have anything? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you! For the one who eats and drinks, if he does not recognize the body, eats and drinks judgment against himself. Because of this, many are weak and sick among you, and quite a few have died. But if we were evaluating ourselves, we would not be judged. But if we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined, in order that we will not be condemned with the world.​

For a son, it brings him/her home.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, the tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made by hands, eternal in the heavens.​

Why did Paul use the word "died" here and not "sleep"?

Do you think that Paul is contrasting one thing with another, using the word "but"?

In other words, by trampling underfoot the body and blood of Christ we bring judgment on ourselves - but - if we are judged by the Lord we are being disciplined by Him so we do not receive the same condemnation of the world.

What is the condemnation of the world? Death? So if we are disciplined in order that we won't die, then how would Gods discipline be death?

Where does it say God disciplines believers by bringing them home?

Do you think the psalmist had things backwards?

Psalm 118:17 (ESV) 17 I shall not die, but I shall live, and recount the deeds of the LORD.

Psalm 118:18 (ESV) 18 The LORD has disciplined me severely, but he has not given me over to death.

 

[Jim Parker]

Why did Paul use the word "died" here and not "sleep"?

Hmmmm.......Good question!

 

[Nathan]

Hmmmm.......Good question!

Well, upon further looking it does look like the same word used for sleep.

It does make me wonder why did they translate it died here?

 

[FreeGrace]

That's exactly what is happening when someone falls away and deserts his salvation.
He has divorced himself from Christ.

First, the Bible never describes anyone divorcing themself from Christ. The word is "sever". And it doesn't mean that the one doing the severing has the power to undo the salvation that God provides. There are no verses that support such an idea.

Second, in God's economy, there is no divorce. Jesus said so in a conversation with Pharisees about it in Mark 10.
6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’
7 ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,
8 and the two will become one flesh.’So they are no longer two, but one flesh.
9 Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

Biblical language uses 2 PERMANENT relationships in describing the relationship between God and believer and Christ and believer.
1. parent - child. God the Father and His children
2. marriage. Christ the Bridegroom and the Bride

These relationships are permanent in God's economy.

 

[FreeGrace]

The seal that is spoken of, the actual word used, is truly that of which a king put on a letter. I am sorry if you do not accept this as truth, but it is the actual definition of the word used.

Paul was quite clear about how he used the word; to describe how God marks believers; with the Holy Spirit. There is no use of trying to minimize this seal by comparing it with seals on official letters. That seal was wax. This seal is the Holy Spirit Himself.

There is no way to change the definition without re-writing the letter Paul wrote.

Please explain how I've changed the definition. And how that seemingly "re-writes Paul's letter.

If you forsake Christ you forsake salvation.

One can forsake whatever they want to. Where does the Bible SAY that doing so means loss of salvation? Your opinion is not supported from Scripture.

There really is nothing complex about it. Only Christ can save someone - you are not saved by something you did. That is a works based salvation, and it is against what the Bible teaches. It is not an assumption, it is a truth of God.

I totally agree with this. Which is why NO ONE can undo what Christ did. Period.

There is a difference between sinning, and forsaking Christ.

Forsaking Christ is a sin, a rebellion against Him. There are the same. There is no difference.

We are prone to sin, and in this body we will no doubt still sin. That does not mean we have rebelled against God, and it does not mean we have forsaken Him. Do we discipline a child when they do something wrong? So does God. If that child decides to leave us, then how will we discipline them? If we decide to leave God, how will He discipline us?

I've sure mentioned it enough times. Heb 12 is very clear about His disciplining His children, and this discipline is painful (v.11).

Why would anyone think that if a child of God leaves Him, that God isn't able to discipline him??? Isn't God a whole lot more powerful than that??

It seems to me that the view of loss of salvation includes the idea that the believer has more control over his salvation than God does. And your final question bears out that idea.

There are no verses that say or even hint that anyone has more power over their own salvation than God does.

 

[FreeGrace]

The same seal he uses on all who have believed. Praise God!!

Eph 1:3~~New American Standard Bible
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Great post!!

I just wanted to emphasize the importance of the fact that this sealing IN HIM with the Spirit is the result of "having believed", which is the aorist tense. That means one is permanently sealed from a single occurrence of believing.

We would all do well to acknowledge this fact. Loss of salvation is impossible because of this sealing.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yep, that's the correct seal. The one that is on those who do believe.

Question is, can a person who is owned by someone else have that same seal?

Frivolous question. It seems there is an assumption about being owned by someone else, as in the devil. How can the devil take ownership on one of God's own possession? He would have to break the seal, meaning he would have to remove the Holy Spirit from that person.

Is the devil stronger than God???? John 10:28,29 says that no one is able to snatch the believer out of God's hand.

Your question insinuates that the devil is stronger. He isn't. By a long shot.

 

[FreeGrace]

No, no,no. The same seal that the Father put on His Son, He put on those who have believed. Can this seal be broken?

If it can be broken on believers that SAME seal He put on His Son could be broken.

Can the seal The Father put on His Son be broken? No. And He put the same seal on those who have believed.

Great point!! Thanks!