[__ Science __ ] Scientific argument for God's existence

[Clizby]

If the universe and mathematical relationships were different, the universe would be uninhabitable by mankind. The universe is fine tuned to make it a suitable home for people.

How can you know this? The universe does exist so it has to have some laws governing it. Life may be different or not exist if other natural laws ruled but those universes are just as likely to happen as the one that did. The odds of winning the lottery are astronomical but someone wins regularly. When the universe started it had to take a specific form with specific laws guiding it. The universe we have is just as likely as any other form.

Can you demonstrate that the universe had a creator?

 

[Clizby]

Of course.
Everything created has to have a creator.

You are smuggling in a god by claiming that the universe was created without demonstrating that god exists.

 

[Michael74]

When the universe started...

If the universe had a start, someone must have started it.

Life may be different or not exist if other natural laws ruled...

Exactly. The laws of the universe are such to make it a suitable habitation for man. The person who started the universe must have wanted to make a home for man.

 

[Clizby]

If the universe had a start, someone must have started it.

This is a claim that has not been demonstrated to be true.

Exactly. The laws of the universe are such to make it a suitable habitation for man. The person who started the universe must have wanted to make a home for man.

You have this backwards. Life adapted to the environment that we have, this has been demonstrated. Douglas Adams said this:

"Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, “This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!” This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it’s still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything’s going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for."

 

[Clizby]

Yes, intelligent design makes more sense, given the order and complexity extant.

Complexity is not a hallmark of design, simplicity is. In engineering, generally the more simple a design is the more robust and reliable it is. Photosynthesis is a rather inefficient and complex process that gives evidence that nature was not designed.

 

[Michael74]

Why is god so difficult to discover?

He's not. He reveals Himself to all who seek Him seriously.

And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:13 NKJV

Be aware though that God will quite often speak to people's spirit, rather than induce compression waves in the atmosphere that travel down people's ear canals to make their eardrums vibrate. People are body, spirit, and soul.

 

[Michael74]

In engineering, generally the more simple a design is the more robust and reliable it is.

I would point out that photosynthesis has been reliable for quite a long time. Plants get along just fine.

 

[Michael74]

Life adapted to the environment that we have...

Hmm. Consider that the earth doesn't have quite enough gravity to keep the atmosphere stable. Meteorites reach the earth in just the right numbers to compensate for molecules that escape into space. Renewing the atmosphere, and keeping it stable for a very long time.

Consider that Jupiter's gravity affects the orbit of meteors just enough so that an excessive number of meteors don't intersect with the earth's orbit.

I suggest these are further evidences of design.

 

[Clizby]

He's not. He reveals Himself to all who seek Him seriously.

And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:13 NKJV

This is untrue. I was a believer for 18 years and earnestly sought him. When it came down to my doubt God never revealed himself to me even though I was sincere.

 

[Clizby]

Hmm. Consider that the earth doesn't have quite enough gravity to keep the atmosphere stable. Meteorites reach the earth in just the right numbers to compensate for molecules that escape into space. Renewing the atmosphere, and keeping it stable for a very long time.

Consider that Jupiter's gravity affects the orbit of meteors just enough so that an excessive number of meteors don't intersect with the earth's orbit.

I suggest these are further evidences of design.

You are assuming that the universe was made for you. Most of the universe will kill you if you were exposed to it. You are also just describing what we know about the universe. You are not demonstrating that it was designed.

Many things in nature look to not be designed at all. Such as the Laryngeal nerve in a giraffe, the human knee, as I said photosynthesis. Every thing that ID has come up with in regards to biology evolution explains better and with mountains of evidence to support it.

 

[Clizby]

I would point out that photosynthesis has been reliable for quite a long time. Plants get along just fine.

I did not say it does not work but that it is so inefficient and convoluted that it does not show design. Simplicity is a hallmark of design, not complexity.

 

[Michael74]

This is untrue. I was a believer for 18 years and earnestly sought him. When it came down to my doubt God never revealed himself to me even though I was sincere.

I am sad to hear that. My experience has been the opposite. God has revealed Himself to me many times, and in many ways. I don't know you very well, so I don't know what you were doing wrong.

 

[Michael74]

I did not say it does not work but that it is so inefficient and convoluted that it does not show design. Simplicity is a hallmark of design, not complexity.

Human engineers have to design simple machines for them to work reliably, because human brains are so limited. Complex machines work better, if they are designed by someone with intelligence that is far beyond ours.

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:8-9 NKJV

 

[Clizby]

I am sad to hear that. My experience has been the opposite. God has revealed Himself to me many times, and in many ways. I don't know you very well, so I don't know what you were doing wrong.

Right, I must be doing something wrong. Does God want me to be saved?

 

[Michael74]

You are assuming that the universe was made for you. Most of the universe will kill you if you were exposed to it.

I think the earth was designed for me. The earth is a very pleasant place to dwell.

 

[Michael74]

Right, I must be doing something wrong. Does God want me to be saved?

Yes, He does.

 

[Clizby]

Human engineers have to design simple machines for them to work reliably, because human brains are so limited. Complex machines work better, if they are designed by someone with intelligence that is far beyond ours.

You are just using a definition of design to fit the data. That is not science. Complex machines do not work better than a machine that is simple that does the same function. The more complex the machine the less efficient it generally is for doing the same function.

Human engineers can make a better knee than nature (or your god) did. No engineer would design a knee the way it is for the function is provides. It is not a good design.

 

[Clizby]

I think the earth was designed for me. The earth is a very pleasant place to dwell.

Ok, but evolution actually has evidence to support the claims that life evolved to fit the environment. You just think it was designed for you.

 

[Michael74]

Human engineers can make a better knee than nature (or your god) did. No engineer would design a knee the way it is for the function is provides. It is not a good design.

Yet original equipment knees regularly last 80 plus years. Human designed replacement knees last 15 to 20 years on average, then they have to be replaced yet again. No thanks. I'll keep my original equipment knee.

I would ask to you consider that no one in their right mind asks to have a healthy knee replaced by an artificial one, just because the engineers claim that theirs is better. They only go for the engineer's model if they have no other choice. Everyone who can keeps their original knees.

Just because engineers claim something, that does not make it so.

 

[Clizby]

Yes, He does.

Ok, then why hasn't he? The bible says he will as you say.