[__ Science __ ] Scientific argument for God's existence

[Clizby]

Yet original equipment knees regularly last 80 plus years. Human designed replacement knees last 15 to 20 years on average, then they have to be replaced yet again. No thanks. I'll keep my original equipment knee.

Not without significant degradation. A new knee actual increases the activity level of older people than people that never had a knee replacement.

A 2010 study showed that 3.9% needed revision surgery after 10 years and 10.3% after 20 years. So most never need replacing or revised.

I would ask to you consider that no one in their right mind asks to have a healthy knee replaced by an artificial one, just because the engineers claim that theirs is better. They only go for the engineer's model if they have no other choice. Everyone who can keeps their original knees.

This only makes sense. No one is advocating that.

Just because engineers claim something, that does not make it so.

But if a theist claims something it must be so, right?

There is data that shows that a person that has a knee replaced in their older age has in increased activity levels and less pain than a person with their original equipment that does not need replacing. The engineered knee is more stable and can handle more lateral load than a human knee. Also, engineers have to make a knee to fit the space of the original knee. If an engineer designed a body from scratch the knee would not look like it does.

 

[Michael74]

Ok, but evolution actually has evidence to support the claims that life evolved to fit the environment. You just think it was designed for you.

Consider that different forms of life manifested on the earth at just the right time to make the earth a suitable habitation for man. Back when the sun output significantly less light than it does today, methanogens appeared and output greenhouse gas to keep the planet from freezing over. As helium built up in the sun's core, light output increased. Methanogens were relegated to the deep ocean, and oxygen producing plants appeared to make the air suitable for man. The oxygen also contributed to more active planet wide plate tectonics, which worked together with the oxygen interacting with minerals to fill the earth with minable resources for an advanced human civilization.

Very advanced pre planning and design is apparent in all of this.

 

[Michael74]

Not without significant degradation. A new knee actual increases the activity level of older people than people that never had a knee replacement.

Yes, but only if the original was damaged in some way. Everybody who can keeps their original knees. They are just better.

This only makes sense. No one is advocating that.

Again proving that the original is better.

But if a theist claims something it must be so, right?

Merely making the point that if you claim that an artificial knee is better, you must back it up with something more than some anonymous engineer claimed it was. I would expect that you would want me to back up my statements with something other than an anonymous theist somewhere claimed it was so. Here is one such resource for artificial knee longevity:

Approximately 85 to 90 percent of all total knee replacement operations performed are successful for approximately 10 to 15 years, depending on the patient's level of activity, after which time revision surgery may be recommended by your doctor.

Now compare that to 90 years of good service from an original knee, as long as they avoid damaging it in auto accidents or some such.

 

[Michael74]

If an engineer designed a body from scratch the knee would not look like it does.

Then why haven't engineers designed a robot that can do all of my chores around the house for me?

 

[Clizby]

Consider that different forms of life manifested on the earth at just the right time to make the earth a suitable habitation for man. Back when the sun output significantly less light than it does today, methanogens appeared and output greenhouse gas to keep the planet from freezing over. As helium built up in the sun's core, light output increased. Methanogens were relegated to the deep ocean, and oxygen producing plants appeared to make the air suitable for man. The oxygen also contributed to more active planet wide plate tectonics, which worked together with the oxygen interacting with minerals to fill the earth with minable resources for an advanced human civilization.

Very advanced pre planning and design is apparent in all of this.

This is at best a hypothesis. You are still just saying that because you don't know how it cold have happened naturally it had to be a creator. That is fallacious. You need to demonstrate that there was a creator.

 

[Clizby]

Merely making the point that if you claim that an artificial knee is better, you must back it up with something more than some anonymous engineer claimed it was. I would expect that you would want me to back up my statements with something other than an anonymous theist somewhere claimed it was so. Here is one such resource for artificial knee longevity:

This just says that some need surgery again after 10-15 years. It says this:

Approximately 85 to 90 percent of all total knee replacement operations performed are successful for approximately 10 to 15 years, depending on the patient's level of activity, after which time revision surgery may be recommended by your doctor.

My source says the same ting but how many need surgery, it says:

Among nearly 55,000 people who had a knee replacement, only 3.9% required revision surgery within 10 years of surgery; by 20 years, 10.3% required revision.

Knee Surgery Stats

Now compare that to 90 years of good service from an original knee, as long as they avoid damaging it in auto accidents or some such.

How old are you? Most people I know over 50 have some kind of knee pain, meaning the knee degrades just like an engineered knee. So good service is subjective I guess.

Also, even if natural knees are better how does that prove anything about the existence of a god? Especially when biology can already account for it.

 

[Clizby]

Then why haven't engineers designed a robot that can do all of my chores around the house for me?

They have if you can afford one. I hear they will be available for everyone in 15-20 years.

 

[Michael74]

I hear they will be available for everyone in 15-20 years.

Cool. I look forward to that. I like robots. For now, home robots are just pie in the sky though.

 

[Michael74]

Also, even if natural knees are better how does that prove anything...

You used the superiority of artificial knees as proof of non design. Without establishing that artificial really are better.

 

[Michael74]

Age did matter. Of those over 70 having hip or knee replacement, the lifetime risk of having a second operation on the replaced joint was about 5%. But this risk was much greater in younger individuals, especially for men. Up to 35% of men in their early 50s required a second operation.

Right, those in their 70s when they get a new knee don't usually get a 2nd surgery because they don't walk around much when they are in their 80s or 90s.

A youngster who gets new knees in their teens will get several replacements over the years, if they are at all active.

 

[Clizby]

You used the superiority of artificial knees as proof of non design. Without establishing that artificial really are better.

No I did not. I was not trying to disprove that nature was non designed. I was giving examples of designs that were not efficient or optimal. Why would a god design nature inefficiently?

I did demonstrate that engineered knees are better but we can disagree on that.

 

[Clizby]

Right, those in their 70s when they get a new knee don't usually get a 2nd surgery because they don't walk around much when they are in their 80s or 90s.

A youngster who gets new knees in their teens will get several replacements over the years, if they are at all active.

Where does the stats that show this that compare young people with engineered knees vs natural knees? Although, this discussion is really not necessary.

 

[Michael74]

Consider how unique the earth really is. The solar system had to form nearer to the galactic center than it is now to get enough minerals for a future advanced civilization. Then move to the one safe orbital vector in the entire galaxy that is safe enough for that future advanced civilization. (Just inside the galactic co-rotation radius, which minimizes spiral arm crossings.) Astronomers have not found any other planet quite like the earth. A few planets have some of the right elements, but not in the proportion needed.

 

[Michael74]

Where does the stats that show this that compare young people with engineered knees vs natural knees?

Studies have found that 85 percent of knees last 20 years...

20 years, 85%. A woman I knew had both of her knees replaced in her teens, because she damaged them running track, and missing an obstacle. It happens.

Of course if someone is 75 when they get their new knees, they probably won't need a replacement. For obvious reasons.

 

[Clizby]

Consider how unique the earth really is. The solar system had to form nearer to the galactic center than it is now to get enough minerals for a future advanced civilization. Then move to the one safe orbital vector in the entire galaxy that is safe enough for that future advanced civilization. (Just inside the galactic co-rotation radius, which minimizes spiral arm crossings.) Astronomers have not found any other planet quite like the earth. A few planets have some of the right elements, but not in the proportion needed.

Why do you think this is conclusive evidence for design? How can you tell the difference between something that is designed and something that happened naturally?

 

[Clizby]

20 years, 85%. A woman I knew had both of her knees replaced in her teens, because she damaged them running track, and missing an obstacle. It happens.

Of course if someone is 75 when they get their new knees, they probably won't need a replacement.

What studies are they claiming say this? The Harvard studied I referenced said 10.9% need surgery after 20 years. Do you really think that 100% of people get a new knee after 20 years? But none of this matters on whether a god exists.

 

[Michael74]

If you are walking along a beach and espy a rock, you might think to yourself that the rock had always been there. However, if you chance upon a pocket watch, ticking and keeping accurate time, you might conclude that it was not a natural process. Someone had designed the watch, manufactured it, and set it to the right time.

I suppose that a tornado could have by chance put together the watch from sand and such on the beach, but what are the odds?

 

[Clizby]

If you are walking along a beach and espy a rock, you might think to yourself that the rock had always been there. However, if you chance upon a pocket watch, ticking and keeping accurate time, you might conclude that it was not a natural process. Someone had designed the watch, manufactured it, and set it to the right time.

I suppose that a tornado could have by chance put together the watch from sand and such on the beach, but what are the odds?

That is because I know what a watch is and I have an overwhelming life experience that watches exist and are created by humans. If I investigate the watch through science we can probably determine who created and maybe some design documents. When we investigate nature we find evidence for natural processes that formed the earth. Why should I reject the supported evidence for a god explanation that cannot be demonstrated?

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Right, I must be doing something wrong. Does God want me to be saved?

If I can ask, what did you do when you were searching for God? There are several times in life that I searched for God's direction but couldn't find it. Those instances aren't enough to show that God isn't there compared to the few times that He has intervened or has responded to a prayer, but they were troubling. Why hasn't God help me or given me direction?

In the end I descided to try to obey what I understood to be from God and from there make the decisions on my own for where to go next. After that though I still struggled with direction for some time, I was more confidant that God would help, and on occassion God would do something that I'd recognize was from Him.

As for you, were you demanding something from God? Demanding that He prove that He exists kind of thing from God, or were you trying to follow Him humbly? Or cry out to Him in desperation and need? Or were you testing God, saying "if you're real do this, then I'll know."

 

[Clizby]

amen

God will prove to you He exists if you want to know

I have demonstrated this to be untrue. If god did conclusively reveal himself to me I would be a believer. I would have no choice.

are you saying you were a believer in God for 18 years and the whole time you didn't know for sure if He existed?

No, I was 100% sure he existed. But the reasons I believed were bad. How has god demonstrated conclusively to you he exists?

are you saying you then after 18 years had a crisis of faith and today you still don't know if God exists?

I am not convinced he exists. What good reasons are there to believe god exists?

so now you believe in evolution because for you there is no proof God exists?

No! I believe in evolution because of the overwhelming evidence that supports it. Even if evolution was false that would not mean a god exists. I am not convinced a god exists because there is little evidence for the claim.