[__ Science __ ] Scientific argument for God's existence

[Clizby]

that is so not true - i deal with many people who have had knee and hip replacements and not one person says their new part is better than their original healthy God-given part

Should I believe peer reviewed scientific medical studies or your anecdotal evidence?

they are actually limited in what they can do with their man-made replacement part - whereas their original God-given part had no such limits

Really? Can you jump from 25 feet in the air and expect your knee to be OK?

 

[Clizby]

you are convinced there is no God - so there is nothing we can say to you until you become convinced there is a God

No. I never said this. I am not claiming god does not exist, I am saying that there is not enough evidence to convince me that god exists.

but if i understand you correctly you are done with seeking God on that account so the issue is effectively closed for you

Nope. Give me good evidence and reasons to believe and I will have to believe it. I want to know what is true and what is false. We don't choose what we believe we are convinced by evidence or reasons. The reasons could be bad or good.

an atheist evolution forum is the best place for you to discuss evolution pov based science - not a christian creation based science pov forum

I disagree.

 

[Clizby]

ok - that is fine - if you did your 200% best to seek God and find out if He exists or not then i imagine you have a peace confidence surety in your life and science supports that peace faith surety

Yes. I believe my position is the honest one.

so then it is settled - you are convinced there is no God - i and others on this forum are convinced there is a God Almighty Creator of all that exists

Please stop misrepresenting me. For the fourth time I do not believe god does not exist. I do not believe he does based on the evidence presented so far.

so then why are you here on this forum if you know for yourself there is no God?

Again, I do not claim this.

this forum is for christians to be in community with believers and seekers to find out for themselves if there is a God or not

as is you are in violation of the tos of this forum - the forum does not allow attacks on faith in God

Then they can ban me. But think about your attitude here. You have misrepresented my position many times, I have said I will believe in god if there is reason to with supporting evidence. Now you want me to leave. Do you not have supporting evidence? Why is god so elusive? I am not attacking faith, I have never made a derogatory comment about those with faith. I am questioning its validity.

 

[WIP]

This is untrue. I was a believer for 18 years and earnestly sought him. When it came down to my doubt God never revealed himself to me even though I was sincere.

Perhaps He was and is revealing Himself to you all the time and you just don't have eyes to see?

 

[Clizby]

Perhaps He was and is revealing Himself to you all the time and you just don't have eyes to see?

Then he is not revealing himself to me. If god is revealing himself to me then I would know he exists. Does god know what would convince me he exists?

 

[stovebolts]

Then he is not revealing himself to me. If god is revealing himself to me then I would know he exists. Does god know what would convince me he exists?

Hi Clizby and welcome to our forum.
I have read this thread as well as another that you have engaged in and i commend you for your candor and academia.

I would be first to admit i do not have the academic wherewithal to have an intellectual discussion with your or Barbarian at the academic knowledge either of you posses. However, that does not mean i or others do not hold knowledge and it is my hope that our respect for one another remains intact and we can edify one another showing grace to one another where each of us lacks.

When i was a young child, i recall the awe and wonder of the world around me. I used to lay in the field and marvel at the detail in a blade of grass and the beauty in the complexity of a wild flower. And when i gazed into the sky during the night, i could feel the awesomeness and beauty of the stars as intrinsically understood that there was something much bigger than myself holding all this beauty together.

You said you were a Christian, so i know you have knowledge of the scripture, but for me, when I read Romans 2:20

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I knew God was true as this passage resonated with an inner truth i knew from a young age, but was unable to articulate.

I do not know exactly what you need God to reveal to you, but it is my prayer that our conduct as Christians will be as an example of Gods mercy and grace, although we fall short many times.

God has left us a first hand testimony in regard to His Son, Jesus and as you know, a Christians faith is in the faith of Jesus. We all put our faith in something. Some, like yourself put your faith in Science which, by its very nature shifts and changes as new information is learned and proven. That is, until another hypothesis is proven and the old axioms are deprecated.

Unlike the rules of Science, Gods word is constant, and does not shift. The truths contained within scripture remain true to this date. This is not to say Science is bad because its not, rather, it is simply to say that both have different entrance points and both used within the proper context can complement one another.

If i may ask, what would God making himself known to you look like?

Grace and piece.
Jeff

 

[jasonc]

that is so not true - i deal with many people who have had knee and hip replacements and not one person says their new part is better than their original healthy God-given part

they are actually limited in what they can do with their man-made replacement part - whereas their original God-given part had no such limits

I have not known many too many hip replacement people who can run marathons and well young enough to actually have it replaced again. doctors will not replace any joint like those until age 55. why because 15 to 20 is the span of life that one gets and with these(saVe the knee) are more about pain reduction from arthirittis then restoring joint mobility. the knee one will do both. my wife has a reverse shoulder replacement. she will never have the full mobility per her doctor that she had before her arthiritis took that joint as its not meant to and full that even make a full recovery in mobility is 80 percent of strength.

 

[Clizby]

Hi Clizby and welcome to our forum.
I have read this thread as well as another that you have engaged in and i commend you for your candor and academia.

I would be first to admit i do not have the academic wherewithal to have an intellectual discussion with your or Barbarian at the academic knowledge either of you posses. However, that does not mean i or others do not hold knowledge and it is my hope that our respect for one another remains intact and we can edify one another showing grace to one another where each of us lacks.

This is my goal as well. Although I do fall short at times.

When i was a young child, i recall the awe and wonder of the world around me. I used to lay in the field and marvel at the detail in a blade of grass and the beauty in the complexity of a wild flower. And when i gazed into the sky during the night, i could feel the awesomeness and beauty of the stars as intrinsically understood that there was something much bigger than myself holding all this beauty together.

As a kid I used to lie in bed at night and think about the vastness of the universe and what lies beyond its boundaries if anything. When I learned that some scientists think that there may be nothing beyond its boundaries and space is being created as it expands. Thinking about what actually is nothing is mind boggling. It still is. But I never thought as a kid that there was a creator behind it. That seemed just as impossible as nothing to me.

You said you were a Christian, so i know you have knowledge of the scripture, but for me, when I read Romans 2:20

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I knew God was true as this passage resonated with an inner truth i knew from a young age, but was unable to articulate.

I think this is where I will disagree wit you. How can you possibly know a feeling is from a god or specifically the god of the bible. That is not a demonstration to me. I had these feelings when I was a christian as well but without any substantiation they are just feelings. Music will make me feel sad or happy etc. no matter what the type of music it is. Feelings are not a reliable pathway to truth in my opinion.

I do not know exactly what you need God to reveal to you, but it is my prayer that our conduct as Christians will be as an example of Gods mercy and grace, although we fall short many times.

I don't know either but if god is who Christians say he is he should know what I would need to be convinced. Two things that Christians say that make me mad are when they misrepresent my positions (usually that I claim god does not exist) after I have explained to them several times and telling me that I never believed or I was doing something wrong for 18 years as a christian. The I was never a "true" christian line.

What do atheists say that annoy or make you angry?

God has left us a first hand testimony in regard to His Son, Jesus and as you know, a Christians faith is in the faith of Jesus. We all put our faith in something.

This is not true. I don't have faith in my beliefs, I believe them because of evidence and reasons. I try to make sure that my reasons are sound. This is not to say that I don't believe false things but I am making progress to believing true things rather than false things.

Some, like yourself put your faith in Science which, by its very nature shifts and changes as new information is learned and proven. That is, until another hypothesis is proven and the old axioms are deprecated.

This is misrepresenting science. Science does not claim 100% certainty like theists do. But it has a track record of finding truth like no other system we have. Look around you, everything we have chairs, buildings , tech, roads etc. are a product of science not faith.

The theory of atoms may not be 100% correct but the theory is so supported by evidence that there will not be a significant finding that will overturn the theory. Just like gravity and evolution. These scientific theories have so much evidence that they may be tweaked but is highly improbable that they will ever be thrown out because the represent truth.

Unlike the rules of Science, Gods word is constant, and does not shift.

This all depends on who you talk to. Are the stories true or allegory, is salvation by works or grace, are we chosen by god or doe she choose us. There are Christians that don't believe in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus and some that don't believe Jesus was god. Christians disagree on every point of doctrine even salvation. How then can we rely on the bible as a standard of truth?

The truths contained within scripture remain true to this date. This is not to say Science is bad because its not, rather, it is simply to say that both have different entrance points and both used within the proper context can complement one another.

How can the bible help someone determine what is true and false? Especially with my points above.

If i may ask, what would God making himself known to you look like?

I don't know, but as I said before god should know and he has refused to show me. If the Christian god is real then he has the power to save me and convince me to follow him. Or does he not have this ability?

 

[Clizby]

I have not known many too many hip replacement people who can run marathons and well young enough to actually have it replaced again. doctors will not replace any joint like those until age 55. why because 15 to 20 is the span of life that one gets and with these(saVe the knee) are more about pain reduction from arthirittis then restoring joint mobility. the knee one will do both. my wife has a reverse shoulder replacement. she will never have the full mobility per her doctor that she had before her arthiritis took that joint as its not meant to and full that even make a full recovery in mobility is 80 percent of strength.

Your comparing apples and oranges. What about the other inefficiencies in nature, giraffe laryngeal nerve, photosynthesis etc?

humans poor design:
Poor design of women reproductive system causes ectopic pregnancies. Modern medicine (science) can save the mothers life.

Human babies are born through the pelvis bone causing millions of deaths prior to modern medicine (science) because of this restriction.

The formation of male testes in the abdomen causes a weakening the abdominal wall causing hernias in men, modern medicine (science) can fix this.

We breath and eat through the pharynx which increases the chance of choking.

Almost all plants and animals can synthesize their own vitamin C, humans cannot because of a defective gene. This is understood by evolution and not from faith.

The nerves and blood vessels are on the surface of the retina in humans instead of behind it as in some invertebrate species. This causes a blind spot in mammals. The better design would be to attach these to the side of the retina that does not receive light.

Nature is ripe with design flaws. If god did create us, why would we need to change the design and often do by surgery? These items above are not diseases or deformities they are examples of how we are made either through evolution or by god. Evolution can account for these design flaws.

 

[jasonc]

Your comparing apples and oranges. What about the other inefficiencies in nature, giraffe laryngeal nerve, photosynthesis etc?

humans poor design:
Poor design of women reproductive system causes ectopic pregnancies. Modern medicine (science) can save the mothers life.

Human babies are born through the pelvis bone causing millions of deaths prior to modern medicine (science) because of this restriction.

The formation of male testes in the abdomen causes a weakening the abdominal wall causing hernias in men, modern medicine (science) can fix this.

We breath and eat through the pharynx which increases the chance of choking.

Almost all plants and animals can synthesize their own vitamin C, humans cannot because of a defective gene. This is understood by evolution and not from faith.

The nerves and blood vessels are on the surface of the retina in humans instead of behind it as in some invertebrate species. This causes a blind spot in mammals. The better design would be to attach these to the side of the retina that does not receive light.

Nature is ripe with design flaws. If god did create us, why would we need to change the design and often do by surgery? These items above are not diseases or deformities they are examples of how we are made either through evolution or by god. Evolution can account for these design flaws.

You claimed that a man made joint was far superior .I know doctors who are creationists .they will say no,made heart nor joint can be what God gave you.the curse of sin. Accoubts ,but ya know honesr engineers would never design purposely to fail ,car makers ,appliances .

Evolution requires motivation of self survival to care for another .but in your world view upon,death of the sun all that man did or is will be never remembered,live to ease your mind .but in death nothing will matter,whether you were good or bad all is meaningless,that is exactly why ptsd meetings can and do fail .

Define purpose in the ultimate no purpose of your reason being ,alive because chance made you .

 

[Clizby]

You claimed that a man made joint was far superior .I know doctors who are creationists .they will say no,made heart nor joint can be what God gave you.the curse of sin. Accoubts ,but ya know honesr engineers would never design purposely to fail ,car makers ,appliances .

I disagree. We both made our cases but even if you are right how does that indicate a god exists? Why did you ignore all the other human examples of poor design I gave?

Evolution requires motivation of self survival to care for another

This is untrue in humans and some animals. Empathy, reasoned morals and love of others make us want to care for others. Do you really think that I care for my wife and kids because I just want them to survive to pass on DNA? Do you only care for others because god tells you to?

.but in your world view upon,death of the sun all that man did or is will be never remembered,live to ease your mind .but in death nothing will matter,whether you were good or bad all is meaningless,that is exactly why ptsd meetings can and do fail .

What is your point? Just because you don't like the implications of a truth does not mean it is not true.

Define purpose in the ultimate no purpose of your reason being ,alive because chance made you .

I get to define what my purpose and have reasoned morals and live the life that I want. Why does life have to have an ultimate purpose given by a god? This just seems like you don't like the implication of no god so you believe in one instead.

 

[jasonc]

I disagree. We both made our cases but even if you are right how does that indicate a god exists? Why did you ignore all the other human examples of poor design I gave?

This is untrue in humans and some animals. Empathy, reasoned morals and love of others make us want to care for others. Do you really think that I care for my wife and kids because I just want them to survive to pass on DNA? Do you only care for others because god tells you to?

What is your point? Just because you don't like the implications of a truth does not mean it is not true.

I get to define what my purpose and have reasoned morals and live the life that I want. Why does life have to have an ultimate purpose given by a god? This just seems like you don't like the implication of no god so you believe in one instead.

Because utlimately love is merely in your view what ever an unverifiable study done on man and apes who we can't observe allegedly intermediates as they are extinct to see let alone we can't even properly understand the human mind to know it.

Pyschology ,the most soft science ,

If man decides what is objective then its not objective at all.you can't via science understand what can't be studied,we can't observe something go from no,language ,no intelligence in steps from nothimg from existence to the primoridial soup to present .

A soul ,a personality is more the DNA ,yet you,are arguing that nothing but a chance of explosion with somehow it creating its own rules brought you life,and evolution gave man morals.

 

[Truthfrees]

No. I never said this. I am not claiming god does not exist, I am saying that there is not enough evidence to convince me that god exists.

Nope. Give me good evidence and reasons to believe and I will have to believe it. I want to know what is true and what is false. We don't choose what we believe we are convinced by evidence or reasons. The reasons could be bad or good.

I disagree.

i don't know what evidence will convince you but God does

i heard the testimony of a doctor who was an atheist until he started studying the human body for his medical degree - he said that when he honestly looked at the marvelous medical and scientific detail of the human body he KNEW there had to be a
God

God convinced me in a way that meant something to me

God meant for this issue to be a personal thing between each person and Him

if you truly want to know what is true and false about God then God will for sure make Himself real to you - it's not a quick easy thing - God said IF we seek Him He will be found by us when we seek Him with ALL our heart - Jeremiah 29:13 -

it sounds to me from the little you shared that you believed and then something happened to make you doubt - and then in an attitude of doubt/disappointment you asked God to prove Himself - i don't know if starting from a negative bias like that will work or not - in your case it seems not to have worked very well -

it also seems like you are narrowing your proof to scientific proof that God exists - which is i suppose fine - that doctor found scientific proof during his medical studies

i didn't dictate to God how He had to prove Himself to me - i let Him do whatever He wanted to do to prove Himself to me

i was super serious and intense about finding out quickly and beyond doubt whether God was real or not - christians told me to talk to God like He was really there and He would respond -

i felt stupid talking to what might be thin air - but i really wanted to know so i talked to God everyday as though He was there and He gave me a series of proofs until i finally believed beyond doubt He was the one giving me the continuous proofs i was asking for -

in my case i prayed for my specific needs to be met - small insignificant needs - nothing huge and ominous - and one by one He gave me everything i needed - He kept doing that until i became convinced He was real -

and He still does that for me to this day - i need something and i ask God to provide - and in a fun and exciting way i get everything i need - unlike before i started asking God for my specific needs -

also since i became convinced God is real i have received huge miracles of healing and vindication and rescue for myself and others i pray for - it seems to me the bible indicates we don't receive big things from God without faith - imo that is why we need to settle His existence first before we try asking Him for big things - imo people fail to receive big things from God because their faith is shaky - and shaky faith is something God can resolve with us and for us if we seek Him seriously on this

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

To Clizby.

Regarding proof of design. It takes real study in any field to appreaciate the big things and the small things of that field. To find designs, patterns, or other phenomenon that really would point to God instead of other explanations. Nonetheless, here are some things to consider.

On earth there is rich abundant diversity in life and living creatures. We have searched even the most hostile environments on earth and still found something that surprisingly is alive. Yet in space we have found nothing like that. We are an oasis of life in the desert landscape of space that though beautiful, is a desert when it comes to life. Life finds a way is not something that exists except here on earth.

Move on from there and you have wild creativity run rampant in different creatures. Birds, plants, animals, on land and underwater. The scope of complexity is not something to appreciate from the standard of trying to find the best design and move on from there, but is a mixture of artist, and engineer. And at least from our perspective a bit of discovery and awe as well. Not only do ecosystems fit together in a way to remain stable, so also do vastly different creatures manage to survive one generation after another without falling apart. Study the anatomy of man, beast, or plant and it should be awe inspiring. Study the ecosystem of any area and you'll likely find more surprises that again the world is not falling apart.

Then you have the great question. Where did it all come from? The question of beginnings and the question of the journey to make the world in the state it currently is in. From here you step away from science because you can't demonstrate history. Nor can you recreate it. Our best explanations are guesses based on the available information that we have. But the theories without God in them have too many holes to explain our beginnings or explain much of the history of the world. Or the theories have too much assumed and taken for granted that is outside the data in order to support the conclusions of a theory of the past.

The problem from here is that without allowing God to be part of the explanation, the answers are always going to come up short. Something is missing that the explanations take for granted, or ignore completely. On the other hand explanations that have God in them can take advantage of God as an explanation instead of continuing to seek out the how and why of things.

Simply put every study about the past isn't science, it's philosophy. Including evolution. It's about conclusions which is a philosophical nature more then it is about being able to recreate an observation or an experiment which is the bedrock of science. Just something to consider when studying.

The question of God in the world is both a philosophical question and an observational one. Considering the conclusions of someone else's philosophy (or our own), along with the limited amount of our own observations and others observations. However you are not alone, nor are your observations alone. Scientific communities embrace this, by basing some of their reasoning on the conclusions and experiments of others that they did not recreate or peer review. They also embrace the aspect of other people's observations through the peer review process. To see if a theory or it's conclusions hold merit by the standard of our peers looking at the matter.

Yet though this quality of taking in other people's observations is part of science, it seems to be rejected and ignored when it comes to searching a faith and searching for God. Why not take into account the information of other people from their lives? There are many people who say they know God is real, because of what He's done in their lives. Myself included. Some are some very awesome stories. (Mine not as much). Others have less impressive experiences but they are enough to recognize that God is real and active in the world. It's enough to listen to others lives with an open ear to at least accept it as a possibility. Even to consider it reliable when there's nothing to gain from their telling it.

That could be part of your search for God if you let it. Ask those you meet how they found God, or ask what God has done in their lives. Some are some very awesome experiences, that won't be able to be recreated, so you have only that person's testimony and the question of whether they are reliable or if there is something they will gain by telling that story.

 

[Clizby]

You should try to understand someones actual positions on things instead of assuming them. It sounds like your information on atheists comes from theist apologists.

Because utlimately love is merely in your view what ever an unverifiable study done on man and apes who we can't observe allegedly intermediates as they are extinct to see let alone we can't even properly understand the human mind to know it.

Love in my view is a real emotion that I act upon just like you. We understand a lot about the mind. If we alter the brain we alter the mind. There is no evidence of a soul. I love my friends and family just like you do, there is no difference.

If man decides what is objective then its not objective at all.

I agree. But we can have objective morals if we have a goal for our morals such as well being. We can objectively compare our actions with the goal of well being to see if they conform or not. The same is with you, your god determines what is right or wrong that is subjective to him. You just compare your actions to a different subjective standard than I do. By the way my morals would not allow me to keep a person as property, beat slaves or force a woman to marry her rapist as your god does. This is not slander or persecution, those are straight form the bible.

you can't via science understand what can't be studied,we can't observe something go from no,language ,no intelligence in steps from nothimg from existence to the primoridial soup to present .

Evolution is observable, testable and falsifiable, all requirement of science. Your faith is none of these things.

A soul ,a personality is more the DNA ,yet you,are arguing that nothing but a chance of explosion with somehow it creating its own rules brought you life,and evolution gave man morals.

It was not an explosion but an expansion. And my morals come from my reason and empathy. Where do you get your morals from?

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Clizby
I'm sorry that i can't break my responses into separate quotes. I'm mostly on my phone and its too difficult. You brought up some good stuff and I'll try to do my best to recall it all. If i miss something, its for my lack of memory.

Where to start.. How about people misrepresenting you. That bothers me as well and it occurs everywhere and is not isolated to discussions with Christians etc. Seems its a human trait and not just isolated to any subset of the human race. What bothers me more is when people have more to say than their ability to listen because if we can't take the time to listen, we often fail to understand the other.

I don't think i misrepresented Science and i agree with your assessment. Perhaps i did not articulate myself concisely or perhaps your past discussions with other thiests caused you to hear something i did not intend to convey. I will try harder in future discussions with you and I'm glad this is cleared up.

In summary, in the pursuit of how things work, science will shift as new information becomes available.

Gods word does not shift. It is the same. However, and to your point there are indeed divisions and fractures on the meaning of Gods word and for a non-thiest, this can be very confusing. Heck, its confusing enough for most Christians.

This isn't anything new, and Scripture even states this as truth.
1 Cor 11:18. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and I partly believe it.

But it gets worse...
Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

You see, you actually agree with scripture as you have so adeptly pointed out and is plain to see.

Let's see... Feelings. We all have feelings and feelings are a part of who we are. But can we trust our feelings? I think that's the biggest question, right?

Our feelings and our intellect must be in harmony or we restrict and oppress who we are in unhealthy ways. I don't but into the idea that if it feels good, it can't be wrong. But i also don't buy into the idea that reason is above feelings because we can reason to a fault.

If i see somebody hurt, it is good to feel compassion for them. But i can reason why its a bad idea to actually help them. However, if my compassion overrides my ability to reason, i can actually give away everything i have to help others and end up needing help myself.

So we see that both feelings and the ability to reason must be in harmony.

When i was young, i felt the presence of something larger than myself. My reasoning confirms what i felt as a young child and still feel to this day.

My father in law was raised to oppress his feelings. He had all the right answers but in the end, he didn't know if he was saved. You see, he had the knowledge that he was saved, but he did not "feel" that he was saved.

I love my wife, and i feel my wife's love toward me. Likewise, she feels my love toward her. Our marriage isn't an intellectual agreement with mutual understandings. It's much, much deeper than that. When my day comes to die, i will be comfortable on that day knowing within the deepest depths of my being that i am loved by my creator and death is simply a picture that shows us pain and suffering isn't eternal. It has an expiration date.

As far as God showing himself to us, i believe he does through His very creation and can be felt through every breath that we take if we but simply slow down to take it in.

As far as my ability to reason, i have found the words of Scripture to be reliable and truth just as the passages i posted earlier are truth that even you agree with.

Sorry for the ramble and i hope I've touched on your points. If you want to narrow the conversation, i would much enjoy our conversation

 

[jasonc]

You should try to understand someones actual positions on things instead of assuming them. It sounds like your information on atheists comes from theist apologists.

Love in my view is a real emotion that I act upon just like you. We understand a lot about the mind. If we alter the brain we alter the mind. There is no evidence of a soul. I love my friends and family just like you do, there is no difference.

I agree. But we can have objective morals if we have a goal for our morals such as well being. We can objectively compare our actions with the goal of well being to see if they conform or not. The same is with you, your god determines what is right or wrong that is subjective to him. You just compare your actions to a different subjective standard than I do. By the way my morals would not allow me to keep a person as property, beat slaves or force a woman to marry her rapist as your god does. This is not slander or persecution, those are straight form the bible.

Evolution is observable, testable and falsifiable, all requirement of science. Your faith is none of these things.

It was not an explosion but an expansion. And my morals come from my reason and empathy. Where do you get your morals from?

Funny ,because how is it if all western nations ,and i have been, trained to hear and accept islam despite its atrocities as equal and will downplay the evil of it .

The army even says the culture of afghabistan and Iraq are equal but different .
Those cultures where woman are chattel and slavery is allowed .


Why waste money on studying apes if we already know we managed to build a morality but simply chance .we can't test how nor observe and no one teaches that a child on his own devices will be moral and need instruction and despite that obvious flaw we assume that apes became man and learned morality .

Animals can be brutal.well so can man
You are saying that it's the scientist job to also define why that's scientism.morality is outside of that field.

Nor do i share your faith that humans will,ever eliminate war,famine,poverty etc.unless we reprogram our soul,good luck we can't even get gmos right .

 

[Clizby]

i don't know what evidence will convince you but God does

i heard the testimony of a doctor who was an atheist until he started studying the human body for his medical degree - he said that when he honestly looked at the marvelous medical and scientific detail of the human body he KNEW there had to be a
God.

How? By a feeling? I have studies evolution and there is overwhelming evidence that it is occurring. Many atheists that were Christians lose their faith because they actually start to study the bible and our world like me.

God convinced me in a way that meant something to me

God meant for this issue to be a personal thing between each person and Him

Ok, then why is a relationship with god like no other relationship I actually can prove I have? I cannot see, hear or talk to this person like in a real relationship. It is like the guy in high school that says "I have a girlfriend but she goes to a different school."

if you truly want to know what is true and false about God then God will for sure make Himself real to you - it's not a quick easy thing - God said IF we seek Him He will be found by us when we seek Him with ALL our heart - Jeremiah 29:13 -

I did this for a good part of 18 years and very seriously for the last 2-3 years. I know that yo cannot believe this because then it would indicate that the bible is wrong. So you can call me a liar or believe your bible, nice choice.

it sounds to me from the little you shared that you believed and then something happened to make you doubt - and then in an attitude of doubt/disappointment you asked God to prove Himself - i don't know if starting from a negative bias like that will work or not - in your case it seems not to have worked very well -

What happened to make me doubt was I actually started to study the scriptures, where they came from and evidences from science. All that lead me to the conclusion that there is not enough evidence to believe that god exists. I wanted to be the best christian I could and it ultimately led me to disbelief.

it also seems like you are narrowing your proof to scientific proof that God exists - which is i suppose fine - that doctor found scientific proof during his medical studies

Not really, but science has the best track record for truth. Give me another way to find truth and I will use it. My goal is not to endorse science but to know what is true and what is false.

i didn't dictate to God how He had to prove Himself to me - i let Him do whatever He wanted to do to prove Himself to me

I don't either. I have said many times on this forum that I don't know what would convince me god exists but that god should know. I cannot make myself believe something so either he provides the evidence I need to be convinced or he doesn't, it is up to him.

i was super serious and intense about finding out quickly and beyond doubt whether God was real or not - christians told me to talk to God like He was really there and He would respond -

i felt stupid talking to what might be thin air - but i really wanted to know so i talked to God everyday as though He was there and He gave me a series of proofs until i finally believed beyond doubt He was the one giving me the continuous proofs i was asking for -

I used to talk to god when I was a christian as well. How do you know that the response you think you had was from god?

in my case i prayed for my specific needs to be met - small insignificant needs - nothing huge and ominous - and one by one He gave me everything i needed - He kept doing that until i became convinced He was real -

Prayer has been studied and has little affect on the outcome.

and He still does that for me to this day - i need something and i ask God to provide - and in a fun and exciting way i get everything i need - unlike before i started asking God for my specific needs -

Like what?

also since i became convinced God is real i have received huge miracles of healing and vindication and rescue for myself and others i pray for - it seems to me the bible indicates we don't receive big things from God without faith - imo that is why we need to settle His existence first before we try asking Him for big things - imo people fail to receive big things from God because their faith is shaky - and shaky faith is something God can resolve with us and for us if we seek Him seriously on this

Do you have any evidence of these healings? Every time a claim of miraculous healing is made no evidence comes out that I can find. Where is the evidence miracles happen?

Also the bible says that we can move mountains with little or shaky faith. I don't think the bible teaches that you need to muster a certain amount of faith for god to do something. If you need to then you are taking credit for somersetting god did. Mt 17:20, Lk 17:6, Of course there are contradictory verses like Mt 21:21. So I guess take your pick.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I agree. But we can have objective morals if we have a goal for our morals such as well being. We can objectively compare our actions with the goal of well being to see if they conform or not.

It was not an explosion but an expansion. my morals come from my reason and empathy. Where do you get your morals from?

Clizby, these are intreasting points regarding morals. Just to be clear on the matter can you give some examples of objective morals, or morals that come from reason. I think we all have morals that are influenced by empthy. Often empthy overlaps our other reasons for a moral. In your examples empthy can do the same or it can be a moral without empthy. Either way would you mind giving examples of what you mean by objective morals and morals from reason. That way we can be clear on what you mean.

The same is with you, your god determines what is right or wrong that is subjective to him. You just compare your actions to a different subjective standard than I do. By the way my morals would not allow me to keep a person as property, beat slaves or force a woman to marry her rapist as your god does. This is not slander or persecution, those are straight form the bible.

I'd actually disagree with the conclusion that obedience to God and obeying His rules would count as subjective morals. There's often a result from following God's rules as part of your own moral code. I've heard some people's experiences relate to depending on God more, and with that obeying specific rules, teachings, or commands from God in the bible seemed to open up God to be a bigger part of their lives. Other experiences I've heard have a more direct result based on consquences of following God as part of their morals. Either seeing what goes wrong by not following them, or what goes right by following them. I disagree that following God's rules, teachings, or commands from the bible is a subjective matter. Still, I'd like to hear some examples of objective morals before moving on to conclude we're talking about the same thing when talking about objectivity when it comes to morals.

 

[jasonc]

I'm not suggesting atheists can't be moral