[__ Science __ ] Scientific argument for God's existence

[kathydixon]

God exists
just my view of things
the universe is unfolding as it should

 

[Clizby]

Interesting question. You seem to want me to explain how the punishment fits the crime. First people are punished for sin. Second, I don't know you very well, so I have no idea what sins you may have done, and what you deserve. Third, I have very little knowledge of the place of punishment, so I don't really know what levels of punishment there may be for various sins. Given so little information, I don't really know how to explain to you exactly how your particular potential future punishment would fit any particular sins you may have committed over the years. What reason do you have to think everybody gets exactly the same punishment? Some Scriptures speak of outer darkness where some people will be cast. Other Scriptures relate how the smoke of the beast's torment will go up forever.

How about a specific example. Do you think that being angry at someone without cause is the same as committing murder and a murderer should get the same punishment as someone who is angry without cause?

You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Mt 5:21-22

I do trust God to do the right thing.

Why?

The good news is that you don't have to be punished at all. Just accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Agree to follow Jesus's command to love His followers. Trust Jesus to lead you down the right paths.

Can you demonstrate this to be true? Also, how well do I need to love his followers? Why not love everyone?

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

If God exists, I would do whatever I could to not go to hell, but that does not mean that I would love him.

To Clizby. This quote stuck out to me. if I can ask, what's happened in your life to make you not want to love God, even if you come to terms with Him being real? Is there something that we can keep in our prayers for you? The way you've written this, and the vibe I get from some other comments is not just that you won't love God, but if God is real, you're angry with Him.

 

[Clizby]

Actually He does.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
John 3:16-18 NKJV

This says that if you don't believe you are condemned. Who does the condemning? Who set up the rules? Christian doctrine says that sin must be punished either by Jesus or by the person. Why is this? God tells us in the Bible to forgive each other, why cannot God forgive me without punishment. Isn't that real grace? I forgive my children when they lie to me, not because of any punishment I give them, but because I love them.

 

[Michael74]

Also, how well do I need to love his followers?

Now you are starting to understand.

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. John 13:14 NKJV

We are commanded to love each other as Jesus loves us. A lofty standard. Jesus died for us. When He was being crucified He asked the Father to forgive those who were crucifying Him.

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:21-22 NKJV

The standard of love commanded cannot be self generated by our human minds. We invite Him in, and He transforms us.

Think about it. Jesus is the eternal Word through whom all of creation was created. He can create and destroy universes with a word. Think about what a few angry words from Him would have done. All He had to do was ask, and myriad angels would have flocked to His defense, decimating any who sought to harm Him.

He chose to love us. He chose to redeem us. He commands us to love likewise.

 

[Michael74]

Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. John 14:23 NKJV

 

[GodsGrace]

This is untrue. I don't believe that a god did not create the universe. I don't know how the universe came to be or why it is at all. Why don't you use the biblical definition if faith? Anyway, I don't have faith like you do. I have confidence in science because it can demonstrate it is a pathway to truth. What scientific truth do we have that came from the bible? Vaccines, medical science, energy sources, flight etc. Look around almost everything you see came about because of scientific research. You believe in god without evidence and anyone can believe in anything as the bible describes faith as believing in what you hope for.

Hi C,

I don't use the biblical definition of faith because religion is not the ONLY thing people have faith in. When you get on an elevator and push the button...do you have faith that it'll take you to the correct floor? We all have faith and we use our faith every day. I also have faith in God...but not everyone does. This has nothing to do with science. I believe God made everything .... YOU can believe in something different.

I've lost my faith in science as I've gone along in life.
It used to tell me not to eat butter and use margarine instead...
NOW it tells me that butter is better and margarine is poison.

It used to tell me steak was good for me...
NOW it tells me it'll make me die.

It used to believe the universe always existed...
NOW it tells me it came into being but they don't know how.

So science is forever changing. It's sure of some things and I'm happy for that...but it doesn't know everything.

Do you know what gravity is?
Don't worry if you don't...neither do scientists.

Everything around me did not come about by scientific research...
Scientists use what already exists and do research on that.
They cannot create anything and as I look around me I see things the God I have faith in created.

You might want to stop thinking about why I believe in God and start wondering how science explains what came about.
Why can't scientists go beyond the big bang? What existed just before the big bang? Know why they'll never know and have admitted such? Because TIME did not exist before the big bang...there was NOTHING. And they can't research NOTHING.

Again, science can demonstrate what it believes to be true can you demonstrate god exist? When science does not know something it admits it and gets to the task of finding the answers.

I have not discarded the possibility of creation. If you can give sufficient evidence of a creation I will believe it.

Again, I am open to god existing and creating everything. Just demonstrate it it true.

I'm not here to prove anything to you. I'm just telling you that science is not the be all and end all of everything. There's a lot scientists don't know and many are coming around to believing in some kind of intelligence that created everything.

You said science admits it does not know everything.
Christianity also does not know everything. Do you think an ant can know everything about US? No. Well, it's about the same with God and humans...it's impossible to know everything about God and Christians admit we don't know everything.

You want ME to give you proof of intelligent creation...
but YOU also cannot give me scientific proof of how the universe came to be. We're in the same boat my friend...except I have more answers than you do, and you'll find that as time goes by, science WILL state that some intelligence created the universe.

Really? Again name one thing we know about the universe that we know from the bible. How many people do you know that are alive because of medical science? I know many.

You seem to be dividing Christianity and Science.....they should not be divided. They work together. Many scientist are atheist and see Christianity as a threat....this is unfortunate. Before the 19th Century, scientists were religious...they understood that no one thing could have created the universe that they could explain...they accepted that God did the creating.

As to what we know from the bible:
1. The bible was first in knowing that the universe CAME INTO BEING. Genesis 1:1 whereas science always believed everything had always existed.

2. God created animals and humans whereas science always believed in macroevolution. Can you explaiin the cambrian explosion? Don't worry if you can't...neither can science.

3. The bible knew there were 4 poles before anyone did.
The four corners of the earth: North, South, East, West.

4. The bible stated that all humanity started with two persons...Science has confirmed this to be true.

There's a lot more....You could check this out on the net if it's important to you.

Yes, and it was more science that discovered this truth. Not the bible.

Please note that I've already stated the bible knew about the beginning of the universe BEFORE science did. Please look this up on your own...I don't expect you to trust me.

I don't know the answer to these questions and you cannot demonstrate your hypothesis that god did it. Any watch you give me I can track down its maker. I cannot do the same for the universe.

If the watch has a maker,
and you can track down that maker,
What or Who made the universe?
Did it have to have a maker?
Or did it just come about one day?
Did someone build your computer...
Or did it build itself?

Science does not know how the universe started or why it is here at all and I never claimed this.

You on the other hand are making a claim that god created everything, can you demonstrate this?

Again, you wish me to prove something YOU cannot prove.
Science does not know how the universe started or why it is here at all...YOUR statement.

I think that says it all for your claim on having faith in science.
I don't have as much faith in science as you do.

Did you ever wonder why life cannot be recreated in a lab?
It has to do with chemistry.

You should look this stuff up. It's very interesting.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, that is the claim. Other texts do say their god can do miracles so if we substantiate a miracle happened how do we determine which god did it?



How can we link the miracle to a particular God though? Just praying to them is not sufficient because any God could answer the prayer. But for the sake of evidence, do you have evidence (not a story) of a miracle that happened after praying to Jesus?

C ,

There's only ONE GOD!
It's always the same God that works any miracle.

 

[GodsGrace]

God exists
just my view of things
the universe is unfolding as it should

Hi KD,
Welcome to the forum.

Did you know that scientists are beginning to believe more and more that something or someone had to create the universe?
They call it Intelligent Design.
It took intelligence to make what we see around us.

We know that intelligence to be God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ok, I know many people with this same story. I am not saying that it never happened, I am saying that I have never seen sufficient evidence to prove these are miraculous healing's.

To the believer, no proof is necessary.
To the non-believer, no amount of proof is sufficient.

Christianity can be proven,,,but you're not ready for it.

 

[stovebolts]

Why would I do that? The Bible says something different:

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Mt 10:28.

This propensity is in my flesh and I cannot do anything about it. I was sinful at my birth as the Psalms say. I get punished for something that is out of my control. I would never punish my kids in hell for their choices though or just for being born. I would forgive them without requiring them to worship me or under the threat of punishment.

What choice? Worship me or I will punish you in hell, that is not a choice. Especially when he does not reveal himself in any tangible way. If God exists, I would do whatever I could to not go to hell, but that does not mean that I would love him.

Also, is the sinless me the real me? It seems to me that who I am is made up of my choices during my life. My tendencies for certain "sins" make up who I am. I believe a sinless me is not me at all. That is not who I am or would be in heaven. Why does God require us to forgive others without punishing them but he will not do that for us?

Well, i must say this.

If this is what your learned in your years of Christianity i can safely say i am glad you denounced your faith. I would too if i came to those conclusions.

 

[Clizby]

To Clizby. This quote stuck out to me. if I can ask, what's happened in your life to make you not want to love God, even if you come to terms with Him being real? Is there something that we can keep in our prayers for you? The way you've written this, and the vibe I get from some other comments is not just that you won't love God, but if God is real, you're angry with Him.

Nothing happened in my life. I just started to read what the character of God is really like and I don't like him. For example:

He condones slavery and beating them: Ex 21:2-6, 7-11, 20-21, Eph 6:5, 1 Tim 6:1-2
He condones wiping out nations including children: (Gen 7:21-23, Ex 12:29, Num 16:41-49, 1 Sam 6:19, Num 31:7-18
He condemns people before they do anything wrong: Psalm 51:5, Eph 2:2-3, Prov 22:15.
He allows murder and rape (Num 31:7-18, Zech 14:1-2, Judges 21:10-24, Judges 5:30, Deut 20:10-14, Dt 22:28-29, Dt 22:23-24)
Promotes abortion and infanticide: Hos 9:11-16, Num 5:11-12, Num 31:17, 2 Kings 15:16, 1 Sam 15:3, Lev 20:9, Judges 11:30-40, Ex 12:29
Said to kill gay people: Lev 20:13

Many other things that will not allow me to respect or love him if he exists. When apologists talk about these verses and issues it is mind boggling the contortions they have to go through to justify these acts.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nothing happened in my life. I just started to read what the character of God is really like and I don't like him. For example:

He condones slavery and beating them: Ex 21:2-6, 7-11, 20-21, Eph 6:5, 1 Tim 6:1-2
He condones wiping out nations including children: (Gen 7:21-23, Ex 12:29, Num 16:41-49, 1 Sam 6:19, Num 31:7-18
He condemns people before they do anything wrong: Psalm 51:5, Eph 2:2-3, Prov 22:15.
He allows murder and rape (Num 31:7-18, Zech 14:1-2, Judges 21:10-24, Judges 5:30, Deut 20:10-14, Dt 22:28-29, Dt 22:23-24)
Promotes abortion and infanticide: Hos 9:11-16, Num 5:11-12, Num 31:17, 2 Kings 15:16, 1 Sam 15:3, Lev 20:9, Judges 11:30-40, Ex 12:29
Said to kill gay people: Lev 20:13

Many other things that will not allow me to respect or love him if he exists. When apologists talk about these verses and issues it is mind boggling the contortions they have to go through to justify these acts.

Hey C,,,
I wouldn't love God either if the above were caused by Him.
You might want to study a little more.
Not all the rules and regulations were made by God....
What kind of a God would He be anyway?
You're right about that.

We love to say that the bible was written by God.
Well, HE didn't write it ... men did.
Many of the laws in the books you stated were written by MEN, not by God.

Jesus is the proper representation of God.
If you could love Jesus...you could love God.
God tried to reveal Himself to man in different ways,
but Jesus is the best way.
Jesus is God's final revelation.

God inspired the O. T.
It was written about 4,000 years ago.
Think of it.

After God revealed Himself to man...
man attributed everything to God...
even what He did not do.

If you want to know God...
Get to know Jesus.

 

[Clizby]

Hi C,

I don't use the biblical definition of faith because religion is not the ONLY thing people have faith in. When you get on an elevator and push the button...do you have faith that it'll take you to the correct floor?

Yes, but that is because I have sufficient evidence to conclude that it will. I know what an elevator is, I know they are designed and they have gotten me to the floor I need in the past with regularity.

We all have faith and we use our faith every day. I also have faith in God...but not everyone does. This has nothing to do with science. I believe God made everything .... YOU can believe in something different.

It is illegitimate to equate the faith I have in an elevator with the faith you have for a God for the reasons I described above.

I've lost my faith in science as I've gone along in life.
It used to tell me not to eat butter and use margarine instead...
NOW it tells me that butter is better and margarine is poison.

It used to tell me steak was good for me...
NOW it tells me it'll make me die.

Look around you, almost everything you see, phones, cars, buildings, etc. are here because scientists found out principles of our universe and engineers used those principles to make things. No where in the bible did we get this information. The only reason that science is reliable is because it can be demonstrated to be true. Do you really think that we will discover that the earth is flat, or that gravity doe snot work like we believe it does, or that what we know about forces will be wrong after we have been using these principles and demonstrating them to be true for centuries?

It used to believe the universe always existed...
NOW it tells me it came into being but they don't know how.

Yes, but that is because new evidence was found by scientists that changed their mind. Your faith will not allow you to change your mind.

So science is forever changing. It's sure of some things and I'm happy for that...but it doesn't know everything.

Science never claims to know anything, scientists believe things to be true based on demonstration and evidence.

Do you know what gravity is?
Don't worry if you don't...neither do scientists.

We may not know what gravity is but we know exactly how it reacts and works because we can demonstrate that. Will that understanding ever change? No, not unless the universe changes.

Everything around me did not come about by scientific research...
Scientists use what already exists and do research on that.
They cannot create anything and as I look around me I see things the God I have faith in created.

Science does not claim to create things, it only describes the universe. This is the difference between your faith and the one you say I have. I believe things based on demonstration and evidence you just said you believe that God created everything by faith. Not evidence.

You might want to stop thinking about why I believe in God and start wondering how science explains what came about.
Why can't scientists go beyond the big bang? What existed just before the big bang? Know why they'll never know and have admitted such? Because TIME did not exist before the big bang...there was NOTHING. And they can't research NOTHING.

I have thought about these things. This is unfortunate but correct we don't know the answer to what was before the universe began. But that does not warrant the insertion of a god without evidence. I don't know is a perfectly honest answer.

I'm not here to prove anything to you. I'm just telling you that science is not the be all and end all of everything. There's a lot scientists don't know and many are coming around to believing in some kind of intelligence that created everything.

I never said it was everything only that it has a proven track record of coming to the truth better than any other system I know. I don't claim it is the only way to truth.

You said science admits it does not know everything.
Christianity also does not know everything. Do you think an ant can know everything about US? No. Well, it's about the same with God and humans...it's impossible to know everything about God and Christians admit we don't know everything.

Great, but the things that you do know cannot be demonstrated.

You want ME to give you proof of intelligent creation...
but YOU also cannot give me scientific proof of how the universe came to be. We're in the same boat my friend...except I have more answers than you do, and you'll find that as time goes by, science WILL state that some intelligence created the universe.

Science needs to be falsifiable. Tell me how intelligent design is falsifiable.

You seem to be dividing Christianity and Science.....they should not be divided. They work together. Many scientist are atheist and see Christianity as a threat....this is unfortunate. Before the 19th Century, scientists were religious...they understood that no one thing could have created the universe that they could explain...they accepted that God did the creating.

No scientist thinks Christianity is a threat. Which ones? Most scientists do not care about arguments for God because they cannot be demonstrated to be true.

As to what we know from the bible:
1. The bible was first in knowing that the universe CAME INTO BEING. Genesis 1:1 whereas science always believed everything had always existed.

Generally true. How does this demonstrate god created it?

2. God created animals and humans whereas science always believed in macroevolution. Can you explaiin the cambrian explosion? Don't worry if you can't...neither can science.

This is untrue, the Cambrian explosion is well understood in evolutionary theory. There are mountains of evidence that supports evolution, where is your evidence for God?

3. The bible knew there were 4 poles before anyone did.
The four corners of the earth: North, South, East, West.

It does not say poles, it says corners.

4. The bible stated that all humanity started with two persons...Science has confirmed this to be true.

No, all humans share a common ancestor (hominid) that was a branch of the evolutionary tree. Not the same thing as the first two humans.

There's a lot more....You could check this out on the net if it's important to you.

I have studies these things but I get my information from scientists not apologists.

Please note that I've already stated the bible knew about the beginning of the universe BEFORE science did. Please look this up on your own...I don't expect you to trust me.

This is generally true.

If the watch has a maker,
and you can track down that maker,
What or Who made the universe?
Did it have to have a maker?
Or did it just come about one day?
Did someone build your computer...
Or did it build itself?

We don't know. You need to demonstrate that your God created the universe and not just say science does not have the answer. I can demonstrate that my computer was made, You cannot demonstrate that the universe was made by God.

Again, you wish me to prove something YOU cannot prove.
Science does not know how the universe started or why it is here at all...YOUR statement.

Your demonstration of truth should not rely on my lack of knowledge. Can you demonstrate that you know how the universe began?

I think that says it all for your claim on having faith in science.
I don't have as much faith in science as you do.

I don't have faith in things that can be demonstrated. It is a little dishonest to compare your belief in god to my belief in gravity. I can demonstrate how gravity works you cannot demonstrate god exists.

Did you ever wonder why life cannot be recreated in a lab?
It has to do with chemistry.

What? Well we have:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/15/science/synthetic-genome-bacteria.html

And when they figure out how our life began what will you say then?

You should look this stuff up. It's very interesting.

I have studied this, but again not from apologists but from scientists.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Nothing happened in my life. I just started to read what the character of God is really like and I don't like him. For example:

He condones slavery and beating them: Ex 21:2-6, 7-11, 20-21, Eph 6:5, 1 Tim 6:1-2
He condones wiping out nations including children: (Gen 7:21-23, Ex 12:29, Num 16:41-49, 1 Sam 6:19, Num 31:7-18
He condemns people before they do anything wrong: Psalm 51:5, Eph 2:2-3, Prov 22:15.
He allows murder and rape (Num 31:7-18, Zech 14:1-2, Judges 21:10-24, Judges 5:30, Deut 20:10-14, Dt 22:28-29, Dt 22:23-24)
Promotes abortion and infanticide: Hos 9:11-16, Num 5:11-12, Num 31:17, 2 Kings 15:16, 1 Sam 15:3, Lev 20:9, Judges 11:30-40, Ex 12:29
Said to kill gay people: Lev 20:13

Many other things that will not allow me to respect or love him if he exists. When apologists talk about these verses and issues it is mind boggling the contortions they have to go through to justify these acts.

C. S. Lewis wrote "The gates to Hell are locked from the inside." He was an atheistic intellectual who accepted Christ. You should read Mere Christianity.

 

[Clizby]

Hey C,,,
I wouldn't love God either if the above were caused by Him.
You might want to study a little more.
Not all the rules and regulations were made by God....
What kind of a God would He be anyway?
You're right about that.

Why should I believe your interpretation of the Bible over other Christians?

We love to say that the bible was written by God.
Well, HE didn't write it ... men did.
Many of the laws in the books you stated were written by MEN, not by God.

Then why hasn't he corrected them? If he did not want us to kill homosexuals then he let people do it because they thought god wanted them to. He could have stopped it.

Jesus is the proper representation of God.
If you could love Jesus...you could love God.
God tried to reveal Himself to man in different ways,
but Jesus is the best way.
Jesus is God's final revelation.

Jesus said some terrible things and he believed the OT to be all true and all about him. he claimed to be God and that puts all of those orders from God on Him. You can say man said these things but many other Christians think differently, how do I tell the difference if you all have faith but no evidence?

God inspired the O. T.
It was written about 4,000 years ago.
Think of it.

After God revealed Himself to man...
man attributed everything to God...
even what He did not do.

If you want to know God...
Get to know Jesus.

Can Jesus stop child abuse? I bet if you could stop a child from being raped then you would. Why won't Jesus? Jesus watches and then says he will punish the rapist later. That is not a moral being.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Why should I believe your interpretation of the Bible over other Christians?

Then why hasn't he corrected them? If he did not want us to kill homosexuals then he let people do it because they thought god wanted them to. He could have stopped it.

Jesus said some terrible things and he believed the OT to be all true and all about him. he claimed to be God and that puts all of those orders from God on Him. You can say man said these things but many other Christians think differently, how do I tell the difference if you all have faith but no evidence?

Can Jesus stop child abuse? I bet if you could stop a child from being raped then you would. Why won't Jesus? Jesus watches and then says he will punish the rapist later. That is not a moral being.

I was molested multiple times. Bullied ceaselessly. Abused physically, emotionally, psychologically. My "dad" took out a $100k life insurance policy on me then installed a A/C window unit over my bed. He came in one night and turned the unit on full blast, stripped me naked and removed all bedding.....even the pillow. I developed double pneumonia. I survived. He tried again. I punctured the coils with an ice pick he was using to try and clear the coils of ice. I thought I was helping. I didn't know I had just saved my little 3 year old life. He tried to give me away and let his sister finish me off. That didn't work either. He told my mom to give me poison or something. He carefully prepared a TAB soda for me laced with something I promptly threw up. I remember little black beads floating in the toilet. I could go on and on. Don't use others hardships for your excuse not to believe in God. I EARNED the right not to believe in Him yet I cling to him at 60 years of age just like I did as a little bastard unwanted child I was so many years ago.

 

[Clizby]

To the believer, no proof is necessary.
To the non-believer, no amount of proof is sufficient.

This is untrue. We don't get to choose our beliefs, we wither are convinced or we are not by good or bad evidence. Show me the evidence that God exists and I will have to believe, I will have no choice.

Christianity can be proven,,,but you're not ready for it.

This is a cop out. If you have evidence of Christianity then either show it or don't claim you can "prove" god exists.

 

[Clizby]

I was molested multiple times. Bullied ceaselessly. Abused physically, emotionally, psychologically. My "dad" took out a $100k life insurance policy on me then installed a A/C window unit over my bed. He came in one night and turned the unit on full blast, stripped me naked and removed all bedding.....even the pillow. I developed double pneumonia. I survived. He tried again. I punctured the coils with an ice pick he was using to try and clear the coils of ice. I thought I was helping. I didn't know I had just saved my little 3 year old life. He tried to give me away and let his sister finish me off. That didn't work either. He told my mom to give me poison or something. He carefully prepared a TAB soda for me laced with something I promptly threw up. I remember little black beads floating in the toilet. I could go on and on. Don't use others hardships for your excuse not to believe in God. I EARNED the right not to believe in Him yet I cling to him at 60 years of age just like I did as a little bastard unwanted child I was so many years ago.

I am sorry this happened to you. This is not the reason I don't believe in God. I don't believe because there is not sufficient evidence to support that belief. This kind of thing is the reason I believe he is immoral if he exists. He knew you were going through this but did not act to help you like most moral people would.

 

[Clizby]

C. S. Lewis wrote "The gates to Hell are locked from the inside." He was an atheistic intellectual who accepted Christ. You should read Mere Christianity.

I read it and did a study on it when I was a Christian. His arguments fall short just like they all do.