Scientific proof of life after death?

[Obadiah]

An interesting article indeed.

http://www.salon.com/2012/04/21/near_death_explained/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

In 1991, Atlanta-based singer and songwriter Pam Reynolds felt extremely dizzy, lost her ability to speak, and had difficulty moving her body. A CAT scan showed that she had a giant artery aneurysm—a grossly swollen blood vessel in the wall of her basilar artery, close to the brain stem. If it burst, which could happen at any moment, it would kill her. But the standard surgery to drain and repair it might kill her too.

With no other options, Pam turned to a last, desperate measure offered by neurosurgeon Robert Spetzler at the Barrow Neurological Institute in Phoenix, Arizona. Dr. Spetzler was a specialist and pioneer in hypothermic cardiac arrest—a daring surgical procedure nicknamed “Operation Standstill.” Spetzler would bring Pam’s body down to a temperature so low that she was essentially dead. Her brain would not function, but it would be able to survive longer without oxygen at this temperature. The low temperature would also soften the swollen blood vessels, allowing them to be operated on with less risk of bursting. When the procedure was complete, the surgical team would bring her back to a normal temperature before irreversible damage set in.

Essentially, Pam agreed to die in order to save her life—and in the process had what is perhaps the most famous case of independent corroboration of out of body experience (OBE) perceptions on record. This case is especially important because cardiologist Michael Sabom was able to obtain verification from medical personnel regarding crucial details of the surgical intervention that Pam reported. Here’s what happened.

Pam was brought into the operating room at 7:15 a.m., she was given general anesthesia, and she quickly lost conscious awareness. At this point, Spetzler and his team of more than 20 physicians, nurses, and technicians went to work. They lubricated Pam’s eyes to prevent drying, and taped them shut. They attached EEG electrodes to monitor the electrical activity of her cerebral cortex. They inserted small, molded speakers into her ears and secured them with gauze and tape. The speakers would emit repeated 100-decibel clicks—approximately the noise produced by a speeding express train—eliminating outside sounds and measuring the activity of her brainstem.

At 8:40 a.m., the tray of surgical instruments was uncovered, and Robert Spetzler began cutting through Pam’s skull with a special surgical saw that produced a noise similar to a dental drill. At this moment, Pam later said, she felt herself “pop” out of her body and hover above it, watching as doctors worked on her body.

Although she no longer had use of her eyes and ears, she described her observations in terms of her senses and perceptions. “I thought the way they had my head shaved was very peculiar,” she said. “I expected them to take all of the hair, but they did not.” She also described the Midas Rex bone saw (“The saw thing that I hated the sound of looked like an electric toothbrush and it had a dent in it … ”) and the dental-drill sound it made with considerable accuracy.

Meanwhile, Spetzler was removing the outermost membrane of Pamela’s brain, cutting it open with scissors. At about the same time, a female cardiac surgeon was attempting to locate the femoral artery in Pam’s right groin. Remarkably, Pam later claimed to remember a female voice saying, “We have a problem. Her arteries are too small.” And then a male voice: “Try the other side.”Medical records confirm this conversation, yet Pam could not have heard them.

The cardiac surgeon was right—Pam’s blood vessels were indeed too small to accept the abundant blood flow requested by the cardiopulmonary bypass machine, so at 10:50 a.m., a tube was inserted into Pam’s left femoral artery and connected to the cardiopulmonary bypass machine. The warm blood circulated from the artery into the cylinders of the bypass machine, where it was cooled down before being returned to her body. Her body temperature began to fall, and at 11:05 a.m. Pam’s heart stopped. Her EEG brain waves flattened into total silence. A few minutes later, her brain stem became totally unresponsive, and her body temperature fell to a sepulchral 60 degrees Fahrenheit. At 11:25 a.m., the team tilted up the head of the operating table, turned off the bypass machine, and drained the blood from her body. Pamela Reynolds was clinically dead.

At this point, Pam’s out-of-body adventure transformed into a near-death experience (NDE): She recalls floating out of the operating room and traveling down a tunnel with a light. She saw deceased relatives and friends, including her long-dead grandmother, waiting at the end of this tunnel. She entered the presence of a brilliant, wonderfully warm and loving light, and sensed that her soul was part of God and that everything in existence was created from the light (the breathing of God). But this extraordinary experience ended abruptly, as Reynolds’s deceased uncle led her back to her body—a feeling she described as “plunging into a pool of ice.”

Meanwhile, in the operating room, the surgery had come to an end. When all the blood had drained from Pam’s brain, the aneurysm simply collapsed and Spetzler clipped it off. Soon, the bypass machine was turned on and warm blood was pumped back into her body. As her body temperature started to increase, her brainsteam began to respond to the clicking speakers in her ears and the EEG recorded electrical activity in the cortex. The bypass machine was turned off at 12:32 p.m. Pam’s life had been restored, and she was taken to the recovery room in stable condition at 2:10 p.m.

Tales of otherworldly experiences have been part of human cultures seemingly forever, but NDEs as such first came to broad public attention in 1975 by way of American psychiatrist and philosopher Raymond Moody’s popular book Life After Life. He presented more than 100 case studies of people who experienced vivid mental experiences close to death or during “clinical death” and were subsequently revived to tell the tale. Their experiences were remarkably similar, and Moody coined the term NDE to refer to this phenomenon. The book was popular and controversial, and scientific investigation of NDEs began soon after its publication with the founding, in 1978, of the International Association for Near Death Studies (IANDS)—the first organization in the world devoted to the scientific study of NDEs and their relationship to mind and consciousness.

NDEs are the vivid, realistic, and often deeply life-changing experiences of men, women, and children who have been physiologically or psychologically close to death. They can be evoked by cardiac arrest and coma caused by brain damage, intoxication, or asphyxia. They can also happen following such events as electrocution, complications from surgery, or severe blood loss during or after a delivery. They can even occur as the result of accidents or illnesses in which individuals genuinely fear they might die. Surveys conducted in the United States and Germany suggest that approximately 4.2 percent of the population has reported an NDE. It has also been estimated that more than 25 million individuals worldwide have had an NDE in the past 50 years.

People from all walks of life and belief systems have this experience. Studies indicate that the experience of an NDE is not influenced by gender, race, socioeconomic status, or level of education. Although NDEs are sometimes presented as religious experiences, this seems to be a matter of individual perception. Furthermore, researchers have found no relationship between religion and the experience of an NDE. That is, it did not matter whether the people recruited in those studies were Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, Buddhist, atheist, or agnostic.

Although the details differ, NDEs are characterized by a number of core features. Perhaps the most vivid is the OBE: the sense of having left one’s body and of watching events going on around one’s body or, occasionally, at some distant physical location. During OBEs, near-death experiencers (NDErs) are often astonished to discover that they have retained consciousness, perception, lucid thinking, memory, emotions, and their sense of personal identity. If anything, these processes are heightened: Thinking is vivid; hearing is sharp; and vision can extend to 360 degrees. NDErs claim that without physical bodies, they are able to penetrate through walls and doors and project themselves wherever they want. They frequently report the ability to read people’s thoughts.

The effects of NDEs on the experience are intense, overwhelming, and real. A number of studies conducted in United States, Western European countries, and Australia have shown that most NDErs are profoundly and positively transformed by the experience. One woman says, “I was completely altered after the accident. I was another person, according to those who lived near me. I was happy, laughing, appreciated little things, joked, smiled a lot, became friends with everyone … so completely different than I was before!”

Cont.

 

[Obadiah]

Cont:

However different their personalities before the NDE, experiencers tend to share a similar psychological profile after the NDE. Indeed, their beliefs, values, behaviors, and worldviews seem quite comparable afterward. Importantly, these psychological and behavioral changes are not the kind of changes one would expect if this experience were a hallucination. And, as noted NDE researcher Pim van Lommel and his colleagues have demonstrated, these changes become more apparent with the passage of time.

Some skeptics legitimately argue that the main problem with reports of OBE perceptions is that they often rest uniquely on the NDEr’s testimony—there is no independent corroboration. From a scientific perspective, such self-reports remain inconclusive. But during the last few decades, some self-reports of NDErs have been independently corroborated by witnesses, such as that of Pam Reynolds. One of the best known of these corroborated veridical NDE perceptions—perceptions that can be proven to coincide with reality—is the experience of a woman named Maria, whose case was first documented by her critical care social worker, Kimberly Clark.

Maria was a migrant worker who had a severe heart attack while visiting friends in Seattle. She was rushed to Harborview Hospital and placed in the coronary care unit. A few days later, she had a cardiac arrest but was rapidly resuscitated. The following day, Clark visited her. Maria told Clark that during her cardiac arrest she was able to look down from the ceiling and watch the medical team at work on her body. At one point in this experience, said Maria, she found herself outside the hospital and spotted a tennis shoe on the ledge of the north side of the third floor of the building. She was able to provide several details regarding its appearance, including the observations that one of its laces was stuck underneath the heel and that the little toe area was worn. Maria wanted to know for sure whether she had “really” seen that shoe, and she begged Clark to try to locate it.

Quite skeptical, Clark went to the location described by Maria—and found the tennis shoe. From the window of her hospital room, the details that Maria had recounted could not be discerned. But upon retrieval of the shoe, Clark confirmed Maria’s observations. “The only way she could have had such a perspective,” said Clark, “was if she had been floating right outside and at very close range to the tennis shoe. I retrieved the shoe and brought it back to Maria; it was very concrete evidence for me.”

This case is particularly impressive given that during cardiac arrest, the flow of blood to the brain is interrupted. When this happens, the brain’s electrical activity (as measured with EEG) disappears after 10 to 20 seconds. In this state, a patient is deeply comatose. Because the brain structures mediating higher mental functions are severely impaired, such patients are expected to have no clear and lucid mental experiences that will be remembered. Nonetheless, studies conducted in the Netherlands, United Kingdom, and United States have revealed that approximately 15 percent of cardiac arrest survivors do report some recollection from the time when they were clinically dead. These studies indicate that consciousness, perceptions, thoughts, and feelings can be experienced during a period when the brain shows no measurable activity.

NDEs experienced by people who do not have sight in everyday life are quite intriguing. In 1994, researchers Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper decided to undertake a search for cases of NDE-based perception in the blind. They reasoned that such cases would represent the ultimate demonstration of veridical perceptions during NDEs. If a blind person was able to report on verifiable events that took place when they were clinically dead, that would mean something real was occurring. They interviewed 31 individuals, of whom 14 were blind from birth. Twenty-one of the participants had had an NDE; the others had had OBEs only. Strikingly, the experiences they reported conform to the classic NDE pattern, whether they were born blind or had lost their sight in later life. The results of the study were published in 1997. Based on all the cases they investigated, Ring and Cooper concluded that what happens during an NDE affords another perspective to perceive reality that does not depend on the senses of the physical body. They proposed to call this other mode of perception mindsight.

Despite corroborated reports, many materialist scientists cling to the notion that OBEs and NDEs are located in the brain. In 2002, neurologist Olaf Blanke and colleagues at the University Hospitals of Geneva and Lausanne in Switzerland described in the prestigious scientific journal Nature the strange occurrence that happened to a 43-year-old female patient with epilepsy. Because her seizures could not be controlled by medication alone, neurosurgery was being considered as the next step. The researchers implanted electrodes in her right temporal lobe to provide information about the localization and extent of the epileptogenic zone—the area of the brain that was causing the seizures—which had to be surgically removed. Other electrodes were implanted to identify and localize, by means of electrical stimulation, the areas of the brain that—if removed—would result in loss of sensory capacities, linguistic ability, or even paralysis. Such a procedure is particularly critical to spare important brain areas that are adjacent to the epileptogenic zone.

When they stimulated the angular gyrus—a region of the brain in the parietal lobe that is thought to integrate sensory information related to vision, touch, and balance to give us a perception of our own bodies—the patient reported seeing herself “lying in bed, from above, but I only see my legs and lower trunk.” She described herself as “floating” near the ceiling. She also reported seeing her legs “becoming shorter.”

The article received global press coverage and created quite a commotion. The editors of Nature went so far as to declare triumphantly that as a result of this one study—which involved only one patient—the part of the brain that can induce OBEs had been located.

“It’s another blow against those who believe that the mind and spirit are somehow separate from the brain,” said psychologist Michael Shermer, director of the Skeptics Society, which seeks to debunk all kinds of paranormal claims. “In reality, all experience is derived from the brain.”

In another article published in 2004, Blanke and co-workers described six patients, of whom three had experienced an atypical and incomplete OBE. Four patients reported an autoscopy—that is, they saw their own double from the vantage point of their own body. In this paper, the researchers describe an OBE as a temporary dysfunction of the junction of the temporal and parietal cortex. But, as Pim van Lommel noted, the abnormal bodily experiences described by Blanke and colleagues entail a false sense of reality. Typical OBEs, in contrast, implicate a verifiable perception (from a position above or outside of the body) of events, such as their own resuscitation or a traffic accident, and the surroundings in which the events took place. Along the same lines, psychiatrist Bruce Greyson of the University of Virginia commented that “We cannot assume from the fact that electrical stimulation of the brain can induce OBE-like illusions that all OBEs are therefore illusions.”

Materialistic scientistshave proposed a number of physiological explanations to account for the various features of NDEs. British psychologist Susan Blackmore has propounded the “dying brain” hypothesis: that a lack of oxygen (or anoxia) during the dying process might induce abnormal firing of neurons in brain areas responsible for vision, and that such an abnormal firing would lead to the illusion of seeing a bright light at the end of a dark tunnel.

Would it? Van Lommel and colleaguesobjected that if anoxia plays a central role in the production of NDEs, most cardiac arrest patients would report an NDE. Studies show that this is clearly not the case. Another problem with this view is that reports of a tunnel are absent from several accounts of NDErs. As pointed out by renowned NDE researcher Sam Parnia, some individuals have reported an NDE when they had not been terminally ill and so would have had normal levels of oxygen in their brains.

Cont.

 

[Obadiah]

Cont:


Parnia raises another problem: When oxygen levels decrease markedly, patients whose lungs or hearts do not work properly experience an “acute confusional state,” during which they are highly confused and agitated and have little or no memory recall. In stark contrast, during NDEs people experience lucid consciousness, well-structured thought processes, and clear reasoning. They also have an excellent memory of the NDE, which usually stays with them for several decades. In other respects, Parnia argues that if this hypothesis is correct, then the illusion of seeing a light and tunnel would progressively develop as the patient’s blood oxygen level drops. Medical observations, however, indicate that patients with low oxygen levels do not report seeing a light, a tunnel, or any of the common features of an NDE we discussed earlier.

During the 1990s, more research indicated that the anoxia theory of NDEs was on the wrong track. James Whinnery, a chemistry professor with West Texas A&M, was involved with studies simulating the extreme conditions that can occur during aerial combat maneuvers. In these studies, fighter pilots were subjected to extreme gravitational forces in a giant centrifuge. Such rapid acceleration decreases blood flow and, consequently, delivery of oxygen to the brain. In so doing, it induces brief periods of unconsciousness that Whinnery calls “dreamlets.”Whinnery hypothesized that although some of the core features of NDEs are found during dreamlets, the main characteristics of dreamlets are impaired memory for events just prior to the onset of unconsciousness, confusion, and disorientation upon awakening. These symptoms are not typically associated with NDEs. In addition, life transformations are never reported following dreamlets.

So, if the “dying brain” is not responsible for NDEs, could they simply be hallucinations? In my opinion, the answer is no. Let’s look at the example of hallucinations that can result from ingesting ketamine, a veterinary drug that is sometimes used recreationally, and often at great cost to the user.

At small doses, the anesthetic agent ketamine can induce hallucinations and feelings of being out of the body. Ketamine is thought to act primarily by inhibiting N-Methyl-D-aspartic acid (NMDA) receptors, which normally open in response to binding of glutamate, the most abundant excitatory chemical messenger in the human brain. Psychiatrist Karl Jensen has speculated that the blockade of NMDA receptors may induce an NDE. But ketamine experiences are often frightening, producing weird images; and most ketamine users realize that the experiences produced by this drug are illusory. In contrast, NDErs are strongly convinced of the reality of what they experienced. Furthermore, many of the central features of NDEs are not reported with ketamine. That being said, we cannot rule out that the blockade of NMDA receptors may be involved in some NDEs.

Neuroscientist Michael Persinger has claimed that he and his colleagues have produced all the major features of the NDE by using weak transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS) of the temporal lobes. Persinger’s work is based on the premise that abnormal activity in the temporal lobe may trigger an NDE. A review of the literature on epilepsy, however, indicates that the classical features of NDEs are not associated with epileptic seizures located in the temporal lobes. Moreover, as Bruce Greyson and his collaborators have correctly emphasized, the experiences reported by participants in Persinger’s TMS studies bear little resemblance with the typical features of NDEs.

The scientific NDE studies performed over the past decades indicate that heightened mental functions can be experienced independently of the body at a time when brain activity is greatly impaired or seemingly absent (such as during cardiac arrest). Some of these studies demonstrate that blind people can have veridical perceptions during OBEs associated with an NDE. Other investigations show that NDEs often result in deep psychological and spiritual changes.

These findings strongly challenge the mainstream neuroscientific view that mind and consciousness result solely from brain activity. As we have seen, such a view fails to account for how NDErs can experience—while their hearts are stopped—vivid and complex thoughts and acquire veridical information about objects or events remote from their bodies.

NDE studies also suggest that after physical death, mind and consciousness may continue in a transcendent level of reality that normally is not accessible to our senses and awareness. Needless to say, this view is utterly incompatible with the belief of many materialists that the material world is the only reality.

Excerpted from “The Brain Wars: The Scientific Battle Over the Existence of the Mind and the Proof That Will Change the Way We Live Our Lives.” Courtesy of HarperOne.

 

[AirDancer]

What do you think about NDEs, Obadiah ?

 

[Obadiah]

I don't know, really. I used to think they were probably just something going on in a brain that wasn't completely unconscious. But reading the examples in this article, either they are lying or there is a lot more to it than I used to think. Could this be similar to what John experienced that resulted in his writing the book of Revelation? (I don't know...) I was speaking to a friend today who is reading another book about a pastor's 4 year old son who had a similar experience, and his account is pretty convincing too that this is more of a glimpse of an afterlife than just coincidence or some psychological phenomena. The fact that each person who has experienced this also found their lived changed dramatically is significant too.

 

[AirDancer]

I can recall all the discussions - heated and otherwise - after "Life After Life" was published. There were (and are) great numbers of people who absolutely proclaim NDEs as nothing more than anesthesia-induced 'dreams' of a sort, or perhaps indications of 'disturbed' mentalities. After all, there are so many in this world who do not believe anything awaits after death.

I've always been struck by the descriptions some of the NDE 'survivors' were able to give that included relatives they had never met. To experience something as startling as a NDE, it would lead many to dramatically change their lives. I've particularly appreciated the accounts of those who was unbelievers prior to their NDE, and gave their lives to our Lord after their return.

Quite remarkable.

 

[jay55]

This is cool stuff.

 

[Obadiah]

Yeah. I know there are some experiences that are probably psychologically produced, but they seem to be showing that those are quite different from the NDEs they are talking about here. How could the woman describe the shoe in exact detail that was outside the hospital on a ledge where there was no physical way she could have possibly seen it and no one else seemed to know it was even there, yet she described it perfectly right down to the position of the laces? And the perfect descriptions of the medical instruments that she had not had the opportunity to see or the exact details of the medical procedure right down to specific conversations among the people in the OR that she physically could not have heard? And people who were blind from birth, but after an NDE they could describe how things looked just as if they hadn't been blind? In the book my friend was telling me about earlier today, the 4 year old kid recognized his grandfather whom he had never seen in life, not even a picture. But yet after the NDE when he saw an old picture of his grandfather when he was in his prime, he knew him, and even knew the nickname his dad used to call him, despite the fact that they had never told the kid any of this. His father asked how he knew these things and he said "Because I saw him when I was in heaven with Jesus". There's just way too much evidence to dismiss it as just a psychological event that occurs within their own brain. I noticed that the evidence of the scientists who tried to refute these experiences seemed very thin in comparison.

Another thing that struck me is they said all those people had very similar experiences and it made no difference what religion they were, or even if they were atheists. The experience was still largely the same. This tells me that there is an afterlife, and it is what it is no matter what we say we believe it is. There are many people that seem to think they won't go to hell just because they don't believe in it, and others who say that heaven will be for them what they believe it to be. I think this is an indication that the afterlife, whether in hell or heaven, will be what it is no matter what a person wants to believe. It is a real thing and can't be changed. Simply believing hell doesn't exist isn't going to save anyone from it! Simply refusing to believe there is any kind of afterlife doesn't take away the fact that there actually is an afterlife and one day we will all be in it, anymore than believing with all my heart that the rain isn't falling will actually stop it from falling.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Before I was saved I received my salvation I was one of the few that picked up my monthly issue of Playboy and read the articles. I believe the article about Life After Death Proof appeared in one issue. I do not recall who had done the measurements but the tests were conducted that measured infinitely small weight changes at the moment of death.

They discovered that, indeed, there is a small change in the weight, so small as to be unnoticeable but that was not what made the tests stick with me. They also rigged a camera to fire at the, precise, moment of death using different types of film to record any possible image. I don´t recall the film type but they captured, what appeared to be, a ghost rising from the dead person, just as they passed over.

For a young alcoholic atheist, it caused a good deal of thought about the here after, as I thought then. I tend not to discount NDEs because I remember what began the opening of my eyes. I see the problem with this matter is the dominant presence of lost men and women in the Church of today. For the True Believer, life never ends but for the Pretenders, the men and women Jesus will tell He never knew them, life has never been real to them and they fight very hard against such radical ideas.

I find that the survey of the, cross denominational, American Christian Church, taken in the mid-eighties influences my thoughts and work in the ministry the LORD has allowed me to do for Him. That survey has shown me that the greatest field to be harvested is seated in the Church Pews or seats every Sunday morning. This double blind survey of the Faithful Only demonstrated that of this 12 to 15% of the membership, less than 10% of them believed the Basic Tenants of the Christian faith.

These are Salvic issues. They were questions like, "Do you believe Jesus died on the cross to pay the debt of your sins?" The nine point something percent of the folks attending church at least three times a week, when extended into the whole Church Membership, translates into less than 2% of the membership and that is a lot of Lost Folks to be saved, right there in our midst. Until we reach them I do not ever see a wide acceptance of issues such as this one.

 

[for_his_glory]

There are so many things we will never understand. We read so many of these out of body experiences that are so explicit in the details of what they saw that how can one deny this truly happens. I have even seen this beautiful warm light being in the Spirit at times and you just know you are in the presence of the Lord, but can never move forward through the light, but that light always sends you back to where you are, but with a different sense of purpose and want in life.

 

[Obadiah]

This double blind survey of the Faithful Only demonstrated that of this 12 to 15% of the membership, less than 10% of them believed the Basic Tenants of the Christian faith.

Just based on years of observing church people with more than just a casual interest since even before the study you're talking about was done, and watching for the "fruit" that we are told will identify true Christians, I would have to say I concur. This is why the church is so powerless and ineffective today. To many of it's so called "members" don't even believe! To many of it's LEADERS don't even believe! It wasn't long ago that a church board was needing money to fund a ministry. I told them I was convinced this ministry was what God wanted, so what we need to do is pray and ask Him to provide the money and whatever else is needed. The PASTOR looked me square in the eye and said "That usually doesn't work"! How can we expect any better from Joe Pewsitter when this is how his "shepherd" feels?

 

[Edward]

I'm familiar with that case Obadiah. I didn't read the book, but he has several videos on youtube. The grandpas nickname was "Pops" and the boy also told his mother that he met his sister in heaven. Of course he has no sister in real life, but the wife had had a miscarriage early in the marriage which the boy certainly knew nothing about. That sort of thing is a very private thing, which most people do not talk about, especially to a kid. The Mother of course told the boy he has no sister, and the boy said uh-huh, she died in your tummy....then they knew it was real. The boys appendix has burst and he was on the operating table when he had his NDE. He recounts that Jesus himself walked into the room, and sang songs to him to comfort him and calm him IIRC. Let me see if I can find that Video...

For the record, I've watched a lot of these types videos and most certainly believe in NDE's. And why not? We know there's an afterlife and we earnestly look forward to it, Praise the Lord!

 

[Edward]

Oh, ok, I guess he does have a sister, but not two of them. I found it. The boys name is Colten Burpo, and the book is called "Heaven is for Real".

There's more videos about this case, where the boy gives even more details, but I am at a loss to be able to find them right now...

 

[ObjMoVa]

NDEs are very interesting, and they probably hold a lot of answers about the nature of human consciousness. The one thing that stops me from linking them to heaven or the afterlife is that they are near death experiences. None of these people actually died, so I don't think the things they see are applicable to what happens after you die.

 

[th1b.taylor]

NDEs are very interesting, and they probably hold a lot of answers about the nature of human consciousness. The one thing that stops me from linking them to heaven or the afterlife is that they are near death experiences. None of these people actually died, so I don't think the things they see are applicable to what happens after you die.

I read the book before placing it in the Church Library and I recall the story line this is not an NDE. I remember he was 4 and was dead on the Table for either 3 or 4 minutes. If a person is clinically dead, they are no longer here. He was dead and the things he did in that short period would take at least a full day to do here on the Earth.

The thing I was most impressed with was he did not know the first pic of Pops and dad, a Church Pastor, had to get a copy of Pops in his early years before the, then 4 year old, knew it was Pops in the photos. I will see this film but I recommend reading the book after one sees the movie for the complete story and before judging it.

 

[Edward]

I thought about that before and agree th1b. These are death experiences, but the term and acronym NDE has become kind of a catch phrase to refer to it. They come back to life and it isn't final for them is why I think the term near death is acceptable to use.

 

[Obadiah]

I'm familiar with that case Obadiah. I didn't read the book, but he has several videos on youtube. The grandpas nickname was "Pops" and the boy also told his mother that he met his sister in heaven. Of course he has no sister in real life, but the wife had had a miscarriage early in the marriage which the boy certainly knew nothing about. That sort of thing is a very private thing, which most people do not talk about, especially to a kid. The Mother of course told the boy he has no sister, and the boy said uh-huh, she died in your tummy....then they knew it was real. The boys appendix has burst and he was on the operating table when he had his NDE. He recounts that Jesus himself walked into the room, and sang songs to him to comfort him and calm him IIRC. Let me see if I can find that Video...

For the record, I've watched a lot of these types videos and most certainly believe in NDE's. And why not? We know there's an afterlife and we earnestly look forward to it, Praise the Lord!

YES! That's the one. She had just started reading it and I couldn't remember all the details of what she said. I'm going ot get the book and read it too. I had just "shared" the article I pasted above on Facebook before our visit and she started telling me about this book not even realizing I had just read the above article. Some coincidence since this isn't the kind of thing we normally sit around talking about. And the article above was shared on Facebook by a practicing witch, so it's not only Christians who are starting to pay attention to this kind of thing.

 

[Obadiah]

NDEs are very interesting, and they probably hold a lot of answers about the nature of human consciousness. The one thing that stops me from linking them to heaven or the afterlife is that they are near death experiences. None of these people actually died, so I don't think the things they see are applicable to what happens after you die.

I'm no expert on it and I haven't even followed this sort of thing as much as others here have, but I've heard doctors describe their condition as actually being dead when these things have happened. it was just that they didn't stay dead because the doctors managed to bring them back to life again. It seems that, unlike just being under normal anesthesia for surgery, they actually had no brain activity, no heart beat, no breathing, and in the case of the woman in the article I posted her core body temperature was down to 60º and all the blood had been removed from her body. Not sure how much deader a person can get than that! They seem to be saying that there is no way this could have come from human consciousness because there was absolutely no consciousness for it to have come from, and in the cases they are talking about, the people saw and heard things that there was no way they could have seen or heard, not even subconsciously. They are saying the experiences of these people are quite different than the experiences of those who have had strange visions while under normal anesthesia (seeing the light at the end of the tunnel type of thing). The other thing that strikes me is that the experiences were similar despite people being from very different religions, or no religion at all, and different cultures, yet they all had very similar experiences. If these things were only from their subconscious, what they experienced should have been very different and much more based on their personal background and beliefs.

The article I posted doesn't directly try to prove Christianity as the one true religion or try to prove that the Christian version of heaven or hell is real. In fact, I don't think it was particularly a "Christian" article at all. But it seems that it does show an awful lot of evidence that there is some kind of existence after death and that's a lot more than we had 100 years ago, or even a few decades ago when we didn't have the ability to monitor things like brain function the way we can now. Previously there was always that question of whether or not they actually were dead when these kind of things happened.

 

[Vaccine]

This guy is a neurosurgeon who had a NDE, he says materialistic science fails miserably to explain human conscious:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/26/b...ls-of-near-death-in-proof-of-heaven.html?_r=0

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ingrid-peschke/near-death-experiences_b_4151093.html

I remember watching a old show where a doctor interviewed some people who had NDE's. Not everyone sees tunnels of light, some people describe a hell. From what this doctor said his research found many NDE are frightening experiences for these people. The doctors and nurses tell about how the patients regained conscious looking terrified and in some cases screaming. Only later did they change their stories to seeing "tunnels of light". The video only included the interviews of 3 or 4 people, but at least two of them said they experienced hell and don't want to go back. The doctor who made the video himself had a NDE and became a christian as a result.

 

[Lewis]

NDE's are real' and can't nobody tell me any different.