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[_ Old Earth _] Scientists against evolution

I'm failing to see how that quote fits in this discussion at all solo.

also car eto explain how evolution in any way resembles a religion?
 
pfilmtech said:
I'm failing to see how that quote fits in this discussion at all solo.

also car eto explain how evolution in any way resembles a religion?

The hardcore Christians believe that Evolution takes the steam out of literal Genesis, therefore Evolution is a religion.
 
Faith Based Evolution

By Roy W. Spencer

Twenty years ago, as a PhD scientist, I intensely studied the evolution versus intelligent design controversy for about two years. And finally, despite my previous acceptance of evolutionary theory as "fact," I came to the realization that intelligent design, as a theory of origins, is no more religious, and no less scientific, than evolutionism.

In the scientific community, I am not alone. There are many fine books out there on the subject. Curiously, most of the books are written by scientists who lost faith in evolution as adults, after they learned how to apply the analytical tools they were taught in college.

You might wonder how scientists who are taught to apply disciplined observation and experimentation and to search for natural explanations for what is observed in nature can come to such a conclusion? For those of you who consider themselves open-minded, I will try to explain.

True evolution, in the macro-sense, has never been observed, only inferred. A population of moths that changes from light to dark based upon environmental pressures is not evolution -- they are still moths. A population of bacteria that become resistant to antibiotics does not illustrate evolution -- they are still bacteria. In the biological realm, natural selection (which is operating in these examples) is supposedly the mechanism by which evolution advances, and intelligent design theory certainly does not deny its existence. While natural selection can indeed preserve the stronger and more resilient members of a gene pool, intelligent design maintains that it cannot explain entirely new kinds of life -- and that is what evolution is.

Possibly the most critical distinction between the two theories (or better, "models") of origins is this: While similarities between different but "related" species have been attributed by evolutionism to common ancestry, intelligent design explains the similarities based upon common design. An Audi and a Ford each have four wheels, a transmission, an engine, a gas tank, fuel injection systems … but no one would claim that they both naturally evolved from a common ancestor.

Common ancestry requires transitional forms of life to have existed through the millions of years of supposed biological evolution. Yet the fossil record, our only source of the history of life on Earth, is almost (if not totally) devoid of transitional forms of life that would connect the supposed evolution of amphibians to reptiles, reptiles to birds, etc. This is why Stephen Jay Gould, possibly the leading evolutionist of our time, advanced his "punctuated equilibria" theory. In this theory, evolution leading to new kinds of organisms occurs over such brief periods of time that it was not captured in the fossil record. Upon reflection, one cannot help but notice that this is not arguing based upon the evidence -- but instead from the lack of evidence.

One finally comes to the conclusion that, despite vigorous protests, belief in evolution and intelligent design are matters of faith. Even some evolutionists have admitted as much in their writings. Modern biology does not "fall apart" without evolution, as some will claim. Maybe the theories of the origins of forms of life fall apart, or theories of the origin of capabilities that those life forms exhibit, or the supposed ancestral relationships between them fall apart. But these are merely intellectual curiosities, serving only to stimulate discussion and teach the next generation of students the same beliefs. From a practical point of view, the intelligent design paradigm is just as useful to biology, and I believe, more satisfying from an intellectual point of view.

Intelligent design can be studied and taught without resorting to human creation traditions and beliefs, which in the West are usually traceable to the first book of the Bible, Genesis. Just as someone can recognize and study some machine of unknown purpose built by another company, country (or alien intelligence?), one can also examine the natural world and ask the question: did this machine arise by semi-random natural physical processes, or could it have been designed by a higher power? Indeed, I was convinced of the intelligent design arguments based upon the science alone.

Of course, ultimately, one must confront the origin of that higher power, which will logically lead to the possibility of an original, uncaused, First Cause. But then we would be firmly in the religious realm. All naturalistic cosmological theories of origins must invent physics that have never been observed by science -- because the "Big Bang" can't be explained based upon current physics. A naturalistic origin of the universe violates either the First or Second Laws of thermodynamics -- or both. So, is this science? Or faith?

It is already legal to teach intelligent design in public schools. What is not currently legal is to mandate its teaching. The Supreme Court has ruled that this would violate the First Amendment's establishment of religion clause.

But I have some questions relating to this: Does not classical evolutionism, based almost entirely upon faith, violate the same clause? More importantly, what about the establishment clause of the First Amendment, which states that Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion?

If the public school system insists on teaching evolution as a theory of origins, in the view of many a religious activity, why is it discriminating against the only other theory of origins, intelligent design? (There is, by the way, no third theory of origins that anyone has ever been able to determine.) At the very least, school textbooks should acknowledge that evolution is a theory of origins, it has not been proved, and that many scientists do not accept it.

There are a variety of ideas that try to blend evolution and intelligent design, the most unified one being "pantheism" that sees God and nature as One. This view, which has been held by many peoples throughout recorded history, has also been advanced here at TCS. But more commonly, people subscribe to the notion that a Creator "got things started," and then evolution "took over."

The problem I have with this is that it grants far too much significance to macroevolution, since it has virtually no observational evidence to support it. One wonders: Why do so many people defend it so fervently?

Whether intelligent design is ever taught in school is probably not as important as the freedom that we have in a free society to discuss, and study, such issues. And for that, I am thankful.

Retrieved from http://www.techcentralstation.com/080805I.html
 
Late_Cretaceous said:
Can these points be addressed without quoting scriputre?

No. That is your main problem. You have nothing to base your illegitimate faith on.

BTW I would rather be the 3% that enter the strait gate on the narrow way, than to be one of the 97% that walk on the broad and wide to destruction. How about you?
 
Solo said:
BTW I would rather be the 3% that enter the strait gate on the narrow way, than to be one of the 97% that walk on the broad and wide to destruction. How about you?
I think that such statements only hurt the cause I believe that you are trying to promote. If evolution is false, then it should be refuted in "scientific" terms (and I am not saying that you have not made posts that contain valid scientific content - maybe you have).

By referring to the "broad and narrow gate", you give the impression that you have no more scientific arguments and are resorting to a kind of fear-mongering. Maybe non-believers should be exposed to this passage in the hopes it will spur them to consider Christ. But it should not be used as an anti-evolution argument.

If evolution is false (or needs to be radically re-worked), I humbly suggest that one should make that case without resort to such rhetorical statements.
 
Solo said:
Faith Based Evolution

By Roy W. Spencer


True evolution, in the macro-sense, has never been observed, only inferred. A population of moths that changes from light to dark based upon environmental pressures is not evolution -- they are still moths. A population of bacteria that become resistant to antibiotics does not illustrate evolution -- they are still bacteria. In the biological realm, natural selection (which is operating in these examples) is supposedly the mechanism by which evolution advances, and intelligent design theory certainly does not deny its existence. While natural selection can indeed preserve the stronger and more resilient members of a gene pool, intelligent design maintains that it cannot explain entirely new kinds of life -- and that is what evolution is.

Wrong, http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html


Common ancestry requires transitional forms of life to have existed through the millions of years of supposed biological evolution. Yet the fossil record, our only source of the history of life on Earth, is almost (if not totally) devoid of transitional forms of life that would connect the supposed evolution of amphibians to reptiles, reptiles to birds, etc. This is why Stephen Jay Gould, possibly the leading evolutionist of our time, advanced his "punctuated equilibria" theory. In this theory, evolution leading to new kinds of organisms occurs over such brief periods of time that it was not captured in the fossil record. Upon reflection, one cannot help but notice that this is not arguing based upon the evidence -- but instead from the lack of evidence.

Wrong, http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC200.html

Of course, ultimately, one must confront the origin of that higher power, which will logically lead to the possibility of an original, uncaused, First Cause. But then we would be firmly in the religious realm. All naturalistic cosmological theories of origins must invent physics that have never been observed by science -- because the "Big Bang" can't be explained based upon current physics. A naturalistic origin of the universe violates either the First or Second Laws of thermodynamics -- or both. So, is this science? Or faith?

So wait, what maths are you arguing against here? Please list them and discuss why these maths should be tossed out.

It is already legal to teach intelligent design in public schools. What is not currently legal is to mandate its teaching. The Supreme Court has ruled that this would violate the First Amendment's establishment of religion clause.

Because Intelligent Design is religion. There is a reason why most of its supporters are Christian. Lets also not forget the Pandas Thumb book, where all references of Creation and God were replaced with Intelligent Design and Intelligent Designer, then sold as the perfect book to discuss Intelligent Design.

But I have some questions relating to this: Does not classical evolutionism, based almost entirely upon faith, violate the same clause? More importantly, what about the establishment clause of the First Amendment, which states that Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion?

No, it is not. We observe that allele frequencies change in offspring. We observe a gradual change in life through the fossil record. We see populations of things change to the point where they cannot breed with their common ancestor. If you can show us that there isnt a gradual change of life in the fossil record, that an offsprings allele frequencie is not slightly different from its mother/father, and that these observed instances of speciation do not exist, then go ahead and claim your nobel prize.


If the public school system insists on teaching evolution as a theory of origins, in the view of many a religious activity, why is it discriminating against the only other theory of origins, intelligent design? (There is, by the way, no third theory of origins that anyone has ever been able to determine.) At the very least, school textbooks should acknowledge that evolution is a theory of origins, it has not been proved, and that many scientists do not accept it.

There are very, very, very few scientists who do not accept the Theory of Evolution. If you had read the links posted a while back, you would have seen many institutions agreeing that the Theory of Evolution is the backbone of Biology. The Theory of Evolution is a religion as much as the Theory of Gravity is a religion, and just because it intereferes with your belief in a literal genesis does not make it a religion.
 
Solo said:
Late_Cretaceous said:
Can these points be addressed without quoting scriputre?


BTW I would rather be the 3% that enter the strait gate on the narrow way, than to be one of the 97% that walk on the broad and wide to destruction. How about you?

Awesome, I've found a great argument in favor of atheism! Thanks Solo!
 
Solo said:
You have nothing to base your illegitimate faith on.

That is a not only a personal attack but also an attack against the Roman Catholic Chruch. My "faith" is catholism, you have called it "illegitamate"

I guess that when you are a moderator you don't have to follow the rules. Just the same as when you go around spouting scripture and quoting Jesus- it means you don't acutally have to try to act like a christian.
 
armed2010 said:
Solo said:
Late_Cretaceous said:
Can these points be addressed without quoting scriputre?


BTW I would rather be the 3% that enter the strait gate on the narrow way, than to be one of the 97% that walk on the broad and wide to destruction. How about you?

Awesome, I've found a great argument in favor of atheism! Thanks Solo!
I knew that it wouldn't take much convincing. You are welcome, have fun.
 
Solo said:
There are many false religions in the world today, and evolution is the religion of humanists. There is not any evidence that the origins of all life evolved from one small celled life form. NONE.

So? How does that prove it's wrong? How does the "secular humanist" label automatically invalidate the science?

All of science is arguably secular and humanist. Science and religion are different ways of looking at the world, and accusing a scientific theory of being "secular" is an utterly pointless criticism. This is an example of the kind of argument which is useful when speaking not to scientists, but to fellow creationists, ie- "preaching to the choir". The idea is to demonize evolution by associating it with philosophical movements that are deemed immoral by most fundamentalists.

Fallacy watch:

Red-herring fallacy (specifically, the "guilt by association" variant, where labels that certain groups find very negative are used to discredit an idea without addressing it directly)
 
Religion? I thought Jesus was my religion. But oh well if I observe the evidence and logical conjectures on evolution and accept them for what they are, both theory and fact, I guess I'll have to give Jesus up huh? :roll:

The arrogance in this one is disturbing.
 
id

Solo said:
Faith Based Evolution

By Roy W. Spencer

Twenty years ago, as a PhD scientist, I intensely studied the evolution versus intelligent design controversy for about two years. And finally, despite my previous acceptance of evolutionary theory as "fact," I came to the realization that intelligent design, as a theory of origins, is no more religious, and no less scientific, than evolutionism.
Well let me play devils advocate with you and since you firmly believe that man is the result of intelligent design are you willing to to go so far as to accept the possibility of extra terrestrial being that intelligent design? I can readily accept that possibiity since man is not perfectly made. A perfect being cannot make imperfection.There are also lots of evidence to suggest contact with extra t's in the past. Lastly our STD'S act exactly like what we do to insects when we want to wipe them out.Since you say that ID is not teaching religion then I would suspect you to be true to your word and follow the evidence where it leads.
 
Well let me play devils advocate with you and since you firmly believe that man is the result of intelligent design are you willing to to go so far as to accept the possibility of extra terrestrial being that intelligent design?

Edited

Rule 2 - No Flaming:
You will not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. This will include misquoting another member out of context. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself.
*Amended to include* .... Any person(s) who comes to these forums to attack Christianity or Christians personally will be banned based on the discretion of the Admins & Mods.
 
pfilmtech said:
They ruined thier argument on the first page when they try to debunk abiogensis. For the last time. I mean it I'm never saying it again.

evolution does not try to explain the beginnings of life

edited for using all caps. See the TOS

But it does try to explain the beginnings of humans by claiming that apes turned into humans which is a lie. I just debated an evolutionist on EVC forum who made the false statement that apes & humans can interbreed. This is the kind of lie on which the theory of evolution is based. He admitted it, and I proved the theory of evolution is a lie so we ended the debate.
 
Re: id

reznwerks said:
Solo said:
Faith Based Evolution

By Roy W. Spencer

Twenty years ago, as a PhD scientist, I intensely studied the evolution versus intelligent design controversy for about two years. And finally, despite my previous acceptance of evolutionary theory as "fact," I came to the realization that intelligent design, as a theory of origins, is no more religious, and no less scientific, than evolutionism.
Well let me play devils advocate with you and since you firmly believe that man is the result of intelligent design are you willing to to go so far as to accept the possibility of extra terrestrial being that intelligent design? I can readily accept that possibiity since man is not perfectly made. A perfect being cannot make imperfection.There are also lots of evidence to suggest contact with extra t's in the past. Lastly our STD'S act exactly like what we do to insects when we want to wipe them out.Since you say that ID is not teaching religion then I would suspect you to be true to your word and follow the evidence where it leads.

And what proof is there of ET's? :o Why do atheists conintually live in their imaginations and deny eye-witness testimony and documentary evidence that Jesus lived, performed miracles, died for us, and resurrected? :o This shows that evidence and reality plays zero part in the beliefs of atheists. :(
 
Re: id

reznwerks said:
Well let me play devils advocate with you and since you firmly believe that man is the result of intelligent design are you willing to to go so far as to accept the possibility of extra terrestrial being that intelligent design? I can readily accept that possibiity since man is not perfectly made. A perfect being cannot make imperfection.There are also lots of evidence to suggest contact with extra t's in the past. Lastly our STD'S act exactly like what we do to insects when we want to wipe them out.Since you say that ID is not teaching religion then I would suspect you to be true to your word and follow the evidence where it leads.

First, it is very possible for a perfect being to create imperfection, provided he is consciously choosing to do so. He just can't create imperfection on accident. Free will is logically incompatible with perfection, and so God had to choose one or the other. He chose free will.

Second, all evidence of contact with extraterrestrials is fairly sketchy. The day that a credible witness comes forth with evidence that consists of more than a photograph of a fuzzy dot is the day that I start to seriously consider the possibility that aliens are trying to contact us.

And lastly, I hardly find it surprising that our man-made attempts to eradicate pests closely mimic some of nature's own methods. That's not evidence of aliens, any more than the fact that a light-bulb resembles the sun is evidence that the latter was created by ET.
 
But it does try to explain the beginnings of humans by claiming that apes turned into humans which is a lie.
humans ARE apes.
And what proof is there of ET's?
statistics. Odds are that there are many intelligent life forms out there in the universe.
Why do atheists conintually live in their imaginations and deny eye-witness testimony and documentary evidence that Jesus lived, performed miracles, died for us, and resurrected?
There is none of that. Heck, I've yet to find a reliable source that says jesus even existed, let alone did any of those things. You're the one living with your imagination and denying evidence of evolution.
"This shows that evidence and reality plays zero part in the beliefs of christians."
You don't even know what evolution is.
and speaking of jesus, ET's, and evidence, there is more evidence for the existance of UFOs than for jesus or any of his miracles, as there is footage of UFOS, millions of eyewitnesses all over the world, etc....
Second, all evidence of contact with extraterrestrials is fairly sketchy.
I agree. Personally I don't believe in intelligent ET's visiting earth, but there is more evidence for it than for christianity.
 
I'm often amazed at the vast amounts of dishonestly quoted, and out dated quotes, that many creationists manage to continue bringing up. In any case, I'll try to address some of the quotes.

Solo said:
"By the late 1970s, debates on university campuses throughout the free world were being held on the subject of origins with increasing frequency. Hundreds of scientists, who once accepted the theory of evolution as fact, were abandoning ship and claiming that the scientific evidence was in total support of the theory of creation. Well-known evolutionists, such as Isaac Asimov and Stephen Jay Gould, were stating that, since the creationist scientists had won all of the more than one hundred debates, the evolutionists should not debate them."
(Luther Sunderland, "Darwin's Enigma", p.10)

Isn't/Wasn't Sunderland a creationist? If he is anything like the other mainstream creationists like H*vind, then the above statement is hardly surprising.

"To postulate that the development and survival of the fittest is entirely a consequence of chance mutations seems to me a hypothesis based on no evidence and irreconcilable with the facts. These classical evolutionary theories are a gross over-simplification of an immensely complex and intricate mass of facts, and it amazes me that they are swallowed so uncritically and readily, and for such a long time, by so many scientists without murmur of protest."
(Sir Ernest Chain, Nobel Prize winner)

Couldn't find anything on or about this quote.

"Evolution is a theory universally accepted, not because it can be proved to be true, but because the only alternative, 'special creation,' is clearly impossible."
(D.M.S. Watson, Professor of Zoology, London University)

Yet another quote mine, from 1920, seriously.



"What is so frustrating for our present purpose is that it seems almost impossible to give any numerical value to the probability of what seems a rather unlikely sequence of events... An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle...
(Dr. Francis Crick, Nobel Prize-winner, codiscoverer of DNA)

carrying on: " . . . so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going. But this should not be taken to imply that there are good reasons to believe that it could not have started on the earth by a perfectly reasonable sequence of fairly ordinary chemical reactions. The plain fact is that the time available was too long, the many microenvironments on the earth's surface too diverse, the various chemical possibilities too numerous and our own knowledge and imagination too feeble to allow us to be able to unravel exactly how it might or might not have happened such a long time ago, especially as we have no experimental evidence from that era to check our ideas against."
(http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/ ... ml#quote74)

"The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an unproved theory -- is it then a science or faith? Belief in the theory of evolution is thus exactly parallel to belief in special creation..."
(Dr. L. Harrison Matthews, in the introduction to the 1971 edition of Darwin's "Origin of Species")

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/ ... l#quote4.7


"The more one studies paleontology, the more certain one becomes that evolution is based on faith alone; exactly the same sort of faith which is necessary to have when one encounters the great mysteries of religion... The only alternative is the doctrine of special creation, which may be true, but is irrational." (Dr. L.T. More)

Another 1920s quote

"I reject evolution because I deem it obsolete; because the knowledge, hard won since 1830, of anatomy, histology, cytology, and embryology, cannot be made to accord with its basic idea. The foundationless, fantastic edifice of the evolution doctrine would long ago have met with its long- deserved fate were it not that the love of fairy tales is so deep-rooted in the hearts of man."
(Dr. Albert Fleischmann, University of Erlangen)

Another creationist from the early 20th century.

"Nine-tenths of the talk of evolutionists is sheer nonsense, not founded on observation and wholly unsupported by facts. This museum is full of proofs of the utter falsity of their views. In all this great museum, there is not a particle of evidence of the transmutation of species."
(Dr. Etheridge, Paleontologist of the British Museum)

Wow, a quote from the 19th century, as impressive as the others.[/quote]
 
Heidi said:
But it does try to explain the beginnings of humans by claiming that apes turned into humans which is a lie. I just debated an evolutionist on EVC forum who made the false statement that apes & humans can interbreed. This is the kind of lie on which the theory of evolution is based. He admitted it, and I proved the theory of evolution is a lie so we ended the debate.

Edited: NO Flaming

He said nothing of the sort, what he said as a clarification to your misconception was: "A human male can breed with a human female. Both are apes. Therefore we can breed with apes." Meaning, Male humans that are classified as apes breed with female apes also classified as apes, but they don't interbreed with other apes i.e. chimps, gorillas etc.

Also, you did not prove the ToE wrong, you ended the debate with a spurious excuse.[/quote]
 
Oran_Taran said:
I agree. Personally I don't believe in intelligent ET's visiting earth, but there is more evidence for it than for christianity.

I doubt that, but it doesn't much matter, since Christianity isn't something that needs to be "proven". The bedrock of strong Christian belief is faith, and faith necessarily implies a departure from strict logic and reason. I believe in Jesus not because I can measure him, or collect a DNA sample of him, or test for him in a lab, but because I can feel him in my heart, and he feels right. Is it theoretically possible that I'm deceived? I suppose, but I don't believe that I am.

I don't think it's necessary to prove my religion, to myself or anyone else. But that doesn't mean that I should disbelieve my own senses. All that I have seen has led me to believe that evolution is misguided and mistaken. If I saw concrete evidence that evolution was a proper theory, I would be forced to re-evaluate my stance, as I don't believe that God would construct the world around us in ways that made the story of Creation seem implausible. As was once said: When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be true. It's impossible that God would lie to us, whether it be through the gospel or through the details of his Creation.
 
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