Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Scofield v. Scripture

That study Bible is not the 1909 edition of Scofield's Bible. In my S Bible (1967) the note is on page 251 note 250...
 
I will try not to add my personal thoughts to this thread. It is obvious what my views are.



SCOFIELD’S DEFINITION AND COMMENTS:
“The Palestinian covenant gives the conditions under which Israel entered the land of promise. It is
important to see that the nation has never as yet taken the land under the unconditional Abrahamic
covenant, nor has it ever possessed the whole land. The palestinian covenant is in seven parts: (1)
Dispersion for disobedience. (2) The future repentance of Israel while in the dispersion. (3) The
return of the Lord. (4) Restoration to the land. (5) National conversion. (6) The judgment of Israel’s
oppressors. (7) National prosperity.” Sco. Ref. Bible, page 250, note 1.

Scripture

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.
I will try not to add my personal thoughts to this thread. It is obvious what my views are.



SCOFIELD’S DEFINITION AND COMMENTS:
“The Palestinian covenant gives the conditions under which Israel entered the land of promise. It is
important to see that the nation has never as yet taken the land under the unconditional Abrahamic
covenant, nor has it ever possessed the whole land. The palestinian covenant is in seven parts: (1)
Dispersion for disobedience. (2) The future repentance of Israel while in the dispersion. (3) The
return of the Lord. (4) Restoration to the land. (5) National conversion. (6) The judgment of Israel’s
oppressors. (7) National prosperity.” Sco. Ref. Bible, page 250, note 1.

Scripture

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

I think it hinges on what you underlined and one word...."possessed". The Jews had it at one time, but lost it. Look at all the 7 parts of the covenant. They all have to be fulfilled for true "possession". No possibility of loss, they will possess it....forever. When all 7 conditions are met.

This covenant is UNCONDITIONAL and Israel, at this time, does not possess all that was Promised. When ALL of the conditions are met Israel will Possess, without the possibility of loss, all of its promises.

They never "possessed" it, they just dwelt there for a while. They will forever "possess" it when all the 7 conditions are met.

I agree with Scofield.
 
if it was unconditional then why did the jews loose the land?let me put it this way. Im saved and I witness, lets say I loose my house that god gave me. does that mean I cant ? NO. well I take the look at the land of isreal that way. the Hebrews there were to be lights of the world, they failed in general, Christ came and the church does that. now, when a Hebrew( I am one) gets saved does he need his land to be a light? NO he doesn't. read deuteromony 4 for that.
 
I think it hinges on what you underlined and one word...."possessed". The Jews had it at one time, but lost it. Look at all the 7 parts of the covenant. They all have to be fulfilled for true "possession". No possibility of loss, they will possess it....forever. When all 7 conditions are met.

This covenant is UNCONDITIONAL and Israel, at this time, does not possess all that was Promised. When ALL of the conditions are met Israel will Possess, without the possibility of loss, all of its promises.

They never "possessed" it, they just dwelt there for a while. They will forever "possess" it when all the 7 conditions are met.

I agree with Scofield.

Can you give scripture for your points.
 
if it was unconditional then why did the jews loose the land?let me put it this way. Im saved and I witness, lets say I loose my house that god gave me. does that mean I cant ? NO. well I take the look at the land of isreal that way. the Hebrews there were to be lights of the world, they failed in general, Christ came and the church does that. now, when a Hebrew( I am one) gets saved does he need his land to be a light? NO he doesn't. read deuteromony 4 for that.
I agree with Scofield. From what I see the 7 conditions have not been met perfectly yet. So Israel has not yet "possessed" it forever. They will though, when all has been met.
 
Gr8grace... I am not trying to hide my feelings/thoughts just not posting them as i would like to...
 
I agree with Scofield. From what I see the 7 conditions have not been met perfectly yet. So Israel has not yet "possessed" it forever. They will though, when all has been met.

How about listing the 7 conditions from scripture?


JLB
 
1) Dispersion for disobedience, Deuteronomy 30:1 ; 28:63-68 (See Scofield "Genesis 15:18")

(2) The future repentance of Israel while in the dispersion, Deuteronomy 30:2 .

(3) The return of the Lord, Deuteronomy 30:3 ; Amos 9:9-14 ; Acts 15:14-17 .

(4) Restoration to the land, Deuteronomy 30:5 ; Isaiah 11:11 Isaiah 11:12 ; Jeremiah 23:3-8 ; Ezekiel 37:21-25

(5) National conversion, Deuteronomy 30:6 ; Romans 11:26 Romans 11:27 ; Hosea 2:14-16

(6) The judgment of Israel's oppressors, Deuteronomy 30:7 ; Isaiah 14:1 Isaiah 14:2 ; Joel 3:1-8 ; Matthew 25:31-46

(7) National prosperity, Deuteronomy 30:9 ; Amos 9:11-14


1) Dispersion for disobedience, Deuteronomy 30:1 ; 28:63-68 (See Scofield "Genesis 15:18")

The promise was given to Abraham. Nothing in the law that was added can annul any Abrahamic Covenant stipulations.

18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying: "To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates--

This verse certainly does not contain 7 "conditions" that must be met.

JLB
 
isreal had a function. what land was for the levites? where is dan going to be? dan isn't even mentioned in the book of revalation. the levites have no land inheritance , they have the LORD. what do we inherit? the lord TOO. isreal was to be the light of nations. that light meant they had to teach the torah to the gentiles. how exactly is that any different then what the church does? its not. we teach the goy when we tell them about jesus and live it out.
 
The church has embraced the spiritless reasonings of men. Packaged up in the various commentaries so many Christians prefer, so it seems, to simply reading the Bible for themselves.

But I will say I have a couple of books from Larry O' Richards that I really did learn from and enjoy. My mom and Dad went to church with him, so I had the opportunity to meet him a couple of times in the nineties. He opened up one of his classes to have anyone try to stump him with any Biblical question. I asked one and he got evasive about giving an answer, which led me to conclude I had stumped him, lol.

Good man. If you have to read commentaries, I'm confident his will actually lead you to Holy Spirit inspired learning.

I agree somewhat of what you say Brother. Although there are times that I check a good commentary to see if my understanding is correct. There have been times when a new thought was introduced of which I appreciated. There are very good commentaries and I agree that there are some very poor ones. It behooves us to know the difference....One of the problems with not using a good commentary, some men, by their own interpretation, have brought about the cults.
 
Gr8grace... I am not trying to hide my feelings/thoughts just not posting them as i would like to...
I am not hiding mine. Scofield, with study and understanding of His conclusions, make perfect sense. It is a study that has to be taken seriously and one can't say "Give me 'A' scripture." It is a long study and requires a lot of time and a LOT of scriptures. It can't be done with a few words and a small attention span.

Not saying that you want a few words and have a small attention span Reba! But this doctrine is PAGES long! And most here don't want it.
Gr8grace... I am not trying to hide my feelings/thoughts just not posting them as i would like to...
 
Not saying that you want a few words and have a small attention span Reba! But this doctrine is PAGES long! And most here don't want it.
I did not take your words that way ...:)
 
I will try not to add my personal thoughts to this thread. It is obvious what my views are.



SCOFIELD’S DEFINITION AND COMMENTS:
“The Palestinian covenant gives the conditions under which Israel entered the land of promise. It is
important to see that the nation has never as yet taken the land under the unconditional Abrahamic
covenant, nor has it ever possessed the whole land. The palestinian covenant is in seven parts: (1)
Dispersion for disobedience. (2) The future repentance of Israel while in the dispersion. (3) The
return of the Lord. (4) Restoration to the land. (5) National conversion. (6) The judgment of Israel’s
oppressors. (7) National prosperity.” Sco. Ref. Bible, page 250, note 1.

Scripture

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.
How could I know (being from Mississippi and all that).
Consider:
Hebrews 11:10
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

IMHO Abraham is looking for the New Jerusalem (spiritual in us) and not the physical city of Jerusalem.

The Law under which the fathers took possession of the physical Jerusalem was conditional (sin and go into captivity- repent and turn from sins and be delivered.). After the coming of the new covenant I think things would fit (?).

I would not try and be absolute in putting my thoughts about Scofield's thoughts, but IMHO more things fit with this approach.

The through a glass darkly, jerk from Mississippi .
eddif
 
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
 
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

That doesn't nullify that his children were given the honor of building a natural Temple in the natural city of Jerusalem.

Then they were given authority to rebuild it a second time.

Now it looks like they will build a third one.

Which God saw and prophesied about it through Daniel and Jesus.

Amazing.

However, we also know that the scriptures say -

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar-- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children-- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. Galatians 4:23-26

The Mother of us all.


JLB
 
I studied the KJV for decades without the influence of Scofield's opinions. I recently obtained a 1909 copy of the SRB, and I am stunned at some of his comments. Anyway, I would like to participate in this thread:

First, the land promise was to a "seed", not "seeds," and that seed eventually became Christ and his children:

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." - Galatians 3:16

There was precedent for this interpretation with Moses. This was the first covenant with Israel, a blood covenant:

"And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." - Exodus 19:3-6

When they broke this first covenant (before the "ink" was dry), God said this to Moses:

" I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation." -- Exodus 32:9-10

God was going to destroy all of Israel and give the covenant to the single seed of Moses. Moses was a direct descendant of Abraham, so God would have kept his covenant with Abraham through Moses, both in the flesh and the spirit:

"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham... There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." -- Galatians 3:7,28-29

The land and "father of nations" covenants with Abraham were also to a single seed:

"In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:" -- Gen 15:18

"As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee." - Gen 17:4-7

Therefore, the covenant with Abraham was fulfilled via a single seed--Christ. And there is little doubt that the "seed" of Christ has become like the "grain of mustard seed," with His "seeds" becoming both kings and nations.

The land in question belongs to all of Christ's children.
 
I studied the KJV for decades without the influence of Scofield's opinions. I recently obtained a 1909 copy of the SRB, and I am stunned at some of his comments. Anyway, I would like to participate in this thread:

First, the land promise was to a "seed", not "seeds," and that seed eventually became Christ and his children:

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." - Galatians 3:16

There was precedent for this interpretation with Moses. This was the first covenant with Israel, a blood covenant:

"And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." - Exodus 19:3-6

When they broke this first covenant (before the "ink" was dry), God said this to Moses:

" I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation." -- Exodus 32:9-10

God was going to destroy all of Israel and give the covenant to the single seed of Moses. Moses was a direct descendant of Abraham, so God would have kept his covenant with Abraham through Moses, both in the flesh and the spirit:

"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham... There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." -- Galatians 3:7,28-29

The land and "father of nations" covenants with Abraham were also to a single seed:

"In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:" -- Gen 15:18

"As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee." - Gen 17:4-7

Therefore, the covenant with Abraham was fulfilled via a single seed--Christ. And there is little doubt that the "seed" of Christ has become like the "grain of mustard seed," with His "seeds" becoming both kings and nations.

The land in question belongs to all of Christ's children.

Ultimately, when Jesus returns and we are in the age of Resurrection, The Land will belong to The Seed and His children.

However, there can be no mistaking the reference to the natural descendants of Abraham, meaning the children of Israel while in this age.

8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." 9 And God said to Abraham: "As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised; 11 and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you. Genesis 17:8-10

and again -

To Isaac He said -

4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:4-5

This Covenant and it's promises to the natural descendents of Abraham and Isaac, can not be annuled by the law of Moses, or the New Covenant, which is an extension of the Covenant with Abraham.

What do we say then?

The land of Israel belongs to both the natural descendants as well as to the Seed and His children.

In the Resurrection, it will be only those who are of the Seed, of which Abraham is the father as well as a spiritual child.


JLB
 
Back
Top