Bible Study Scriptural Balance

[netchaplain]

I would ask where?

All who are reborn are constantly being guided by God, which will eventually be manifest.

Meanwhile, the church is the USA is drifting into apostasy as more and more denominations officially declare homosexual "marriage" to be an estate blessed by God thus leading men to hell for the sake of garnering the approval of men rather than of God. Thus the leaders of these denominations show no fear of God and teach their followers to behave similarly. That is not a coming to maturity in Christ; it is a resurgence of paganism.

Those who are truly apostates were never reborn, which will also manifest itself (Num 32::23), for "every tree is known by its own fruit" (Luke 6:44).

Blessings!

 

[netchaplain]

From time to time Christians do sin intentionally. (Like Peter who lied three times saying he didn't know Jesus) The key is that Christians do not "practice" sin; sin does not define the way Christians live. Repentance does.

Repentance is a conformation that the wrong was not willful but rather undesirable. The determination is tallied after the commission of sin, whether it be something they wanted to do or not. There is never a sin that a Christian would say they wanted to commit, which would describe a false professor.

 

[Jim Parker]

Those who are truly apostates were never reborn

That is an oxymoron.
In order to be apostate, it is necessary to have been born again.
One cannot abandon (which is what apostasy is, abandonment) that which one never possessed.
Your comment is, I believe, based on circular reasoning.
Bob: "Those who are truly apostates were never reborn"
Ray: "How do you know?"
Bob: "Because those who are reborn cannot become apostate."

It is an unfortunate opinion, which is contrary to scripture, and an outgrowth of the "preservation of the saints" heresy of Calvin.
The writer of Hebrews states the exact opposite.

Heb 6:4-6 (RSV) For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.

The term "enlightened" is the word used in the primitive church to mean what the average, western, modern-day Christian means by "born again."

To "taste the heavenly gift" is to have believed, been catechized, baptized and qualified to receive the Eucharist. That process was not taken lightly in the early church.

People only become a "partakers of the Holy Spirit" if they have been born again.

To be a partaker of the "powers of the age to come" is to have entered into the eschatological community which is the church.

If such a person commits apostasy, he turns his back on all of that.

jim

 

[Kidron]

My reference is to the members of the Church who are born again and their growth, not what the unbelievers are doing.

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Try to understand , that when the church, the body of Christ, is effective, then a country is impacted TOWARDS Holiness... And when its become ineffective, then the country legalizes homosexuality (and stuff like that).
Maybe you dont realize it yet, but the idea of the "church" is to impact the unbelievers that you say we are not to notice while as you keep saying we are growing up in God hiding behind our blessed assurance, inside the church walls.
This issue is, that when the Church is asleep in the Light, as its been for 20+ years, you end up with a devil in the white house, and one more more to follow....
You end up with the White House being used to promote homosexuality, as this is what happens when Christianity is "not showing its Faith by its WORKS".
You've read James?
?
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View attachment 9467

 

[netchaplain]

That is an oxymoron.
Not to debate, but in order to be apostate, it is necessary to have been born again.
One cannot abandon (which is what apostasy is, abandonment) that which one never possessed.

It's always a matter of what one believes to be truth when it concerns sharing beliefs with one another, and only Scripture can be the determinate. The apostate abandons a false profession, which is what has been occurring for about the last century with many (an end-time sign) . People who serve with their words and not their hearts (Mat 15:8) are apostates, who always result in denying Christ in their walk (Tit 1:16).

Your comment is, I believe, based on circular reasoning.
Bob: "Those who are truly apostates were never reborn"
Ray: "How do you know?"
Bob: "Because those who are reborn cannot become apostate."

One may appear to be an apostate but his life of repentance shows this not to be a true situation.

Because those who are reborn cannot become apostate.

Very true!

For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.

Give this a test view:
Gill:
Verse 26.For if we sin wilfully,....] Which is not to be understood of a single act of sin, but rather of a course of sinning; nor of sins of infirmity through temptation, or even of grosser acts of sin, but of voluntary ones; and not of all voluntary ones, or in which the will is engaged and concerned, but of such which are done on set purpose, resolutely and obstinately; and not of immoral practices, but of corrupt principles, and acting according to them; it intends a total apostasy from the truth, against light and evidence, joined with obstinacy.

After that we have received the knowledge of the truth; either of Jesus Christ, or of the Scriptures, or of the Gospel, or of some particular doctrine, especially the principal one, salvation by Christ; of which there may be a notional knowledge, when there is no experimental knowledge; and which is received not into the heart, but into the head: and whereas the apostle speaks in the first person plural, we, this is used not so much with regard to himself, but others; that so what he delivered might come with greater weight upon them, and be more readily received by them; when they observed he entertained no hard thoughts or jealousies of them, which would greatly distress the minds of those that were truly gracious. Moreover, the apostles use this way of speaking, when they do not design themselves at all, but others, under the same visible profession of religion, and who belonged to the same community of believers; see 1 Peter 4:3 compared with Acts 22:3. Besides, these words are only hypothetical, and do not prove that true believers could, or should, or do sin in this manner: to which may be added, that true believers are manifestly distinguished from these persons,Hebrews 10:38,

there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins; meaning, not typical sacrifice; for though the daily sacrifice ought to have ceased at the death of Christ, yet it did not in fact until the destruction of Jerusalem; but the sacrifice of Christ, which will never be repeated; Christ will die no more; his blood will not be shed again, nor his sacrifice reiterated; nor will any other sacrifice be offered; there will be no other Saviour; there is no salvation in any other, nor any other name whereby we must be saved. These words have been wrongly made use of to prove that persons sinning after baptism are not to be restored to communion again upon repentance; and being understood of immoral actions wilfully committed, have given great distress to consciences burdened with the guilt of sin, committed after a profession of religion; but the true sense of the whole is this, that after men have embraced and professed the truths of the Gospel, and particularly this great truth of it, that Jesus Christ is the only Saviour of men by his blood and sacrifice; and yet after this, against all evidence, all the light and convictions of their own consciences, they wilfully deny this truth, and obstinately persist in the denial of it; seeing there is no more, no other sacrifice for sin, no other Saviour, nor any salvation in any other way, the case of these men must be desperate; there is no help for them, nor hope of them; for by this their sin they shut up against themselves, in principle and practice, the way of salvation.

http://www.christianity.com/bible/commentary.php?com=gill&b=58&c=10

 

[netchaplain]

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Try to understand , that when the church, the body of Christ, is effective, then a country is impacted TOWARDS Holiness... And when its become ineffective, then the country legalizes homosexuality (and stuff like that).

The present world condition of sin will continue to worsen until Christ returns for the Millennial on this present earth, before the new earth is brought forth. I believe Mat 7:13, 14 teaches that the majority of mankind is going to perish, hence the prevalent ratio of unbelievers to believers through earth's entire history.

 

[Kidron]

The present world condition of sin will continue to worsen until Christ returns for the Millennial on this present earth, before the new earth is brought forth. I believe Mat 7:13, 14 teaches that the majority of mankind is going to perish, hence the prevalent ratio of unbelievers to believers through earth's entire history.

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So, you are saying that because God is winding up the show, we should all go back inside and lay back down in the pews.
Well, no thank you.
That's not my Christianity.
Help yourself, to yours.

 

[Jim Parker]

Repentance is a conformation that the wrong was not willful but rather undesirable.

I believe you are distorting scripture to fit your theology.
There is nothing in the scriptures (or logic) that requires repentance to refer only to unwillful sin. Was David's sin of adultery with Bathsheba and his sin of murdering her husband, Uriah, both not willful?
Yet David is the ultimate example of one who sinned intentionally, repented, and was forgiven.

There is never a sin that a Christian would say they wanted to commit, which would describe a false professor.

Nonsense.
There are sinful acts which a Christian might commit even though he knew they are sinful.
He might not want to do it but, he does it anyway. That is an act of free will just as David's adultery and murder of his close friend, Uriah, were acts of free will. David knew better but did it anyway.

RE: (Num 32:23 But if you will not do so, behold, you have sinned against the LORD; and be sure your sin will find you out.), The passage in which that verse is found has nothing to do with being born again and still struggling with sin. It is more closely related to Gal 6:7; "Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap."

RE: (Luke 6:44 for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thorns, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush.) The passage in which that verse is found has to do with whether the standard fruit (what a person always does) is good or evil. If a person's normal behavior is sinful then one may properly conclude that the person is not born again.
The same cannot be said if a person's normal behavior is righteous but there is an occasional sin among the acts of righteousness.
Jesus was talking about an entirely different subject.

I find such use of "proof texts" to be deceptive. The truth being taught in the passages from which such "proof texts" are lifted rarely have anything to do with what the topic under discussion. It is a perversion of God's word whether intentional or not, IMO.
I do not suspect that was your intention. You appear to be completely genuine in your faith. But I do point out the fallacy of "proof texting" whenever a verse is taken out of context and used to support a teaching with which it actually has nothing in common.

Slava Bogu

iakov the fool

 

[netchaplain]

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So, you are saying that because God is winding up the show, we should all go back inside and lay back down in the pews.
Well, no thank you.
That's not my Christianity.
Help yourself, to yours.

I know this discussion has not necessarily been maintained on the OP, thus only at the Mod team's discretion will we be able to continue with issues I believe are indirectly related. The respect being shown to one another is probably one of the elements keeping this type of posting alive.

I believe knowing that most will perish should increase the desire and effort to reach others--it does me for the last 40 years.

 

[netchaplain]

I believe you are distorting scripture to fit your theology.

I was just commending our discussion, until you posted this accusation, which is as far as I read this reply. I suggest finding a way to express your disagreements in a respectful and kind way. Accusations, even if true, are never useful in any way.

 

[Kidron]

I know this discussion has not necessarily been maintained on the OP, thus only at the Mod team's discretion will we be able to continue with issues I believe are indirectly related. The respect being shown to one another is probably one of the elements keeping this type of posting alive.

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There is no need to plea for a Mod to save you.
I'll do it for you..

K

 

[Jim Parker]

The apostate abandons a false profession

That is NOT what the Hebrews 6 passage says.
It says the exact opposite; that an apostate abandons a true profession.
You have to ignore or refute that passage of God's word in order to hold your position.

 

[netchaplain]

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There is no need to plea for a Mod to save you.
I'll do it for you..

K

Not certain of your meaning, but just being respectful to the Admin/Mod team. Also your accusation ("plea for help") presents the same site-rule offense as JP's. I will not be able to continue corresponding with anyone who desires to be accusatory. Wishing you and JP well!

Forum Rules Highlights TOS;
1) Give other members the respect you would have them give to yourself. (ToS 2.4)

 

[Kidron]

Not certain of your meaning, but just being respectful to the Admin/Mod team. Also your accusation ("plea for help") presents the same site-rule offense as JP's. I will not be able to continue corresponding with anyone who desires to be accusatory. Wishing you and JP well!

Forum Rules Highlights TOS;
1) Give other members the respect you would have them give to yourself. (ToS 2.4)

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NC,
I didnt accuse you.
I pointed out that you made an obvious plea for mod intervention.
Then in your next post, you actually became the mod and posted ToS 2.4.
So, as i said...

 

[netchaplain]

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NC,
I didnt accuse you.
I pointed out that you made an obvious plea for mod intervention.
Then in your next post, you actually became the mod and posted ToS 2.4.
So, as i said...

Then I'm glad we misunderstood one another. It wasn't a plea but a comment of respecting the rules, which I think was appropriate to mention, not to moderate but to regard the Mod team.

Thanks and blessings!

 

[Kidron]

Then I'm glad we misunderstood one another. It wasn't a plea but a comment of respecting the rules, which I think was appropriate to mention, not to moderate but to regard the Mod team.

Thanks and blessings!

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You are making me smile my friend.
Listen, you didnt just mention respecting the rules, you posted the rules....
Ha ha.
But that fine.
This is not a debate part of the forum, its a bible study.
Yet, you have to allow for more the just posting your viewpoint.
The mods do...
So....Flex a little and allow others to challenge you a bit, if they are not in complete alignment with your personal theory on scripture.
This way, everyone is allowed to think about it, and address it, and grow thereby, including you, and so that is why its always best to allow for challenge and response, even if as you do, you mainly only want to Thread and let them read it.


K

 

[netchaplain]

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You are making me smile my friend.
Listen, you didnt just mention respecting the rules, you posted the rules....
Ha ha.
But that fine.
This is not a debate part of the forum, its a bible study.
Yet, you have to allow for more the just posting your viewpoint.
The mods do...
So....Flex a little and allow others to challenge you a bit, if they are not in complete alignment with your personal theory on scripture.
This way, everyone is allowed to think about it, and address it, and grow thereby, including you.

Well put! I just think it respectful to the site Mods that when discussing various issues on an ongoing basis to occasionally address them and show we are not forgetting their work and worth.

 

[smaller]

A significant issue with the Christian is that he doses not "willfully sin" (Heb 10:26), e.g. choose to sin.

There is no choice granted. All have sin as a present tense matter, 1 John 1:8. Sin dwells in the flesh, noted by Paul as "no longer I." There is no choice made by Paul for "no longer I" or to not be a sinner. Paul claimed to be the chief of sinners after salvation. 1 Tim. 1:15.

We are not to let it rule over us, but it is there, regardless.

 

[netchaplain]

There is no choice granted. All have sin as a present tense matter, 1 John 1:8. Sin dwells in the flesh, noted by Paul as "no longer I." There is no choice made by Paul for "no longer I" or to not be a sinner. Paul claimed to be the chief of sinners after salvation. 1 Tim. 1:15.

We are not to let it rule over us, but it is there, regardless.

What do you mean by "no choice"? I think I may know but want to be sure.

 

[smaller]

What do you mean by "no choice"? I think I may know but want to be sure.

God quite purposefully bound the flesh with indwelling sin and evil present. No choices eliminate that fact. This is why the flesh is and remains contrary to the Spirit.

The difficulties we "all" have is that we like to think that the entirety of ourselves is only in a good state/relationship with God in Christ. That simply isn't the case. God is Perfectly aligned with the Spirit in us and conversely aligned with the flesh, as an enemy. Gal. 5:17 exemplifies this conflicting relationship of the Spirit with the flesh.

Whether the flesh does an external deed of sin or not is immaterial. An external act of sin confirms and culminates the internal fact and proves sin has accelerated it's hold. But that didn't change the fact that sin is an internal habitation to begin with. Evil is in our conscience whether actualized externally or not. Anyone can consider their own thoughts and come to the conclusion, that adversity to the Spirit is a fact therein, whether or not an external action transpires.

I understand "why" preachers don't present these facts. It's not all that popular and doesn't sell well. The inherent pride of/in the flesh which is a result of sin dwelling in it and evil present with us really doesn't care to hear of it.

Nevertheless it is the truth.