Scriptures that appear to Teach against limited Atonement !

[smaller]

All believers hold a form of limited atonement. Some don't even realize they hold it.

None of us (in our right mind anyway) can say or prove the atonement did anything for the devil and his messengers. Therefore 'limited.'

From there though the determinist camps run into a bit of a problem. They really don't know 'whom' God may elect to be saved. So they are confronted with a bit of a problem.

They could for example 'truthful' to their own doctrines hold out the fact that 'atonement' is only for some unknown people in proclaiming the Gospel.

Logic then says that the proclamation of the Gospel should 'rightfully' be made 'in Truth.' (yes, I understand that Paul said he was even OK with Jesus being proclaimed in pretence, but that's another subject.)

The fact is in determinism they really don't know if they themselves are saved unless they persevere to their end. The fact is they don't know in any given gathering of people if one may be elected to salvation, some elected or none elected.

How then is the proclamation made? Truthfully that is? If the determinist position is truthfully applied it would bring a vastly different proclamation that just a broad based open shot. it must logically contain 'ALL' the limitations their positions hold in order to be TRUTHFUL. In an open invitation, the determinist proclaimer is actually not speaking truthfully whatsoever as they don't hold that position.

It's an interesting dilemma to me.

s

 

[JMJ]

It's an interesting dilemma to me.
s

God alone knows which persons living now on earth are His elect. We who are living now on earth can not know and will not know for certain until we die whether we are members of His elect or not.

Jesus, the Word of God, redeemed all mankind as His gift/grace to mankind. Jesus Christ died for all mankind, however, not all men/women will be saved and enter into eternal life and so not all men and women will see the kingdom of God.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Some men/women will not ever believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ and so they will not answer God's/Jesus' call to become spiritually born again. These persons will remain unsaved and so they will not enter into eternal life after they die since they were not ever born again spiritually.


Some men/women will answer His call to become born again. They will believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ and become born again. However, they will only believe/obey for a while and then they will fall away from the faith through disobedience to God's commandments. If these persons do not repent of their sins of disobedience before they die, they will not be saved and they will not enter into eternal life after death. There is no true faith in God/Jesus without obedience to God's commandments. Matthew 19:16-19

Some men/women will answer His call to become born again and they will believe and become born again. These persons will also continue in the faith in obedience to God's commandments until they die and so they will enter into eternal life after death. These spiritually born again persons will see the kingdom of God in heaven.


Matthew 13:3-9 Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: “Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them. 8 But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

The seed that fell by the wayside are the people who did not ever choose to believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They never became born again.

The seed that fell on stony ground are the people who were very excited to hear about the Gospel and became born again while they were emotionally excited but after the emotional high fizzled out, they immediately returned to their former sinful lifestyles.

The seed that fell among thorns are the people who became born again but who did not persevere in obedience to God's commandments until they died. The lure of worldly pleasures eventually succeeded in turning them away from Christ and back into their old sinful behaviors.

Many of these born again persons who fell away from the faith because of their sinful disobedience do still believe that they are still saved. They believe that they cannot and will not lose their salvation no matter what sinful things they do.

It is these unsaved born again persons whom Jesus is speaking of in Matthew 7:20-22

20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ 24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:

And also in Luke 13:22-27 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?” And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’

Peter gives us good advice on how to make our call and election sure:

2 Peter 1:1-11

 

[smaller]

20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Peter 1:1-11&version=NKJV

That's about the extent of the matter. As to the balance, not even close. Some other day maybe.

s

 

[savedbygrace57]

More on 1 Tim 2:4

1 Tim 2:4


4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

When considering this verse, it is no reason to suppose nor believe that the Father here desires the Salvation of no more than He gave to the Son who is the Truth Jn 6:37-40

37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So the All of 1 Tim 2:4 is limited by they being the all or everyone given to the Son that Shall come to Him !

 

[savedbygrace57]

All Things !


The phrase " All things" does not always mean all things without exception, for He 2:17

17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Was Jesus Christ begat of a man ?, How about was He born of a woman who was not a virgin when He was born ? Was He conceived in sin and shapen in inequity ? For all these things must have been if indeed, He was made in all things like His brethren without limitations !

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Whole World in 1 Jn 2:2

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

This Whole World whom God has been propitiated for by Christ's sacrifice, has had all their sins Eternally forgiven, now we Know that this cannot be the case of the whole world without exception, due to the factm that many shall die in their sins Jn 8:24; Matt 7:24

So Whole World means Jews and Gentile Believers !

 

[Mitspa]

The Whole World in 1 Jn 2:2

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

This Whole World whom God has been propitiated for by Christ's sacrifice, has had all their sins Eternally forgiven, now we Know that this cannot be the case of the whole world without exception, due to the factm that many shall die in their sins Jn 8:24; Matt 7:24

So Whole World means Jews and Gentile Believers !

1Jn 2:3

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn 2:5

But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.


1Jn 2:19

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


1Jn 2:26

These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

1Jn 2:29

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

 

[Cassian]

The Whole World in 1 Jn 2:2

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

This Whole World whom God has been propitiated for by Christ's sacrifice, has had all their sins Eternally forgiven, now we Know that this cannot be the case of the whole world without exception, due to the factm that many shall die in their sins Jn 8:24; Matt 7:24

So Whole World means Jews and Gentile Believers !

First, atonement does not mean forgiveness of sin. The atonement is a sacrifice for sin. As a sacrifice it cannot be limited. Or if you think it is limited, just how do you define its limitation? the sacrifice we are speaking about is Christ. He is the Lamb. If that sacrifice is limited, did he only die partially, or is it defined by how much blood was spilled? Please explain how it is limited.

Christ reconciled the world by His Blood, Col 1:20. He atoned for sin. It never says some sin, or certain sins, or only certain peoples sin. He atoned for the sin of the world. If the sacrifice was for one sin, it of necessity would be all sin. But please explain how it can be limited?

 

[BornAgain]

First, atonement does not mean forgiveness of sin. The atonement is a sacrifice for sin. As a sacrifice it cannot be limited. Or if you think it is limited, just how do you define its limitation? the sacrifice we are speaking about is Christ. He is the Lamb. If that sacrifice is limited, did he only die partially, or is it defined by how much blood was spilled? Please explain how it is limited.

Christ reconciled the world by His Blood, Col 1:20. He atoned for sin. It never says some sin, or certain sins, or only certain peoples sin. He atoned for the sin of the world. If the sacrifice was for one sin, it of necessity would be all sin. But please explain how it can be limited?

Spot on and to add:

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Romans 5:11 (KJV)

God offered salvation through the blood of Christ, and the offer must be accepted by complying with the prescribed conditions before the reconciliation is completed. To receive the reconciliation is to receive Christ's death as a sacrifice for sins. To accept this great fact is to receive the reconciliation, the practical effect of which is to become reconciled. So soon as we accept the fact and become obedient from the heart to that form of teaching delivered unto us, we are made free from sin and become the servants of righteousness. The Holy Spirit is now given. Nothing now remains but to perfect holiness in the fear of God, or to work out our salvation.

 

[savedbygrace57]

God offered salvation through the blood of Christ,

What scripture ever says that God offered Salvation to anyone ! That sounds like a false statment, Hope you can provide the scripture.

 

[BornAgain]

What scripture ever says that God offered Salvation to anyone ! That sounds like a false statment, Hope you can provide the scripture.

Here are 2 scriptures....

You took my post out of context...I said God offered salvation through His own blood, not that he offered salvation to anyone.


And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:5 (KJV)

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb
Rev 7:14 (KJV)

 

[savedbygrace57]

Here are 2 scriptures....

You took my post out of context...I said God offered salvation through His own blood, not that he offered salvation to anyone.


And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:5 (KJV)

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb
Rev 7:14 (KJV)

Neither of those scriptures says a word about God or Christ offering anyone Salvation by Blood !

 

[Cassian]

Spot on and to add:

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Romans 5:11 (KJV)

God offered salvation through the blood of Christ, and the offer must be accepted by complying with the prescribed conditions before the reconciliation is completed. To receive the reconciliation is to receive Christ's death as a sacrifice for sins. To accept this great fact is to receive the reconciliation, the practical effect of which is to become reconciled. So soon as we accept the fact and become obedient from the heart to that form of teaching delivered unto us, we are made free from sin and become the servants of righteousness. The Holy Spirit is now given. Nothing now remains but to perfect holiness in the fear of God, or to work out our salvation.

The reconciliation is complete. Man does not need to accept it to make it completed. Christ died, that completes the sacrifice. Christ is that Lamb, and is the sacrifice on the Cross. The purpose of that sacrifice for sin was to make it possible for Christ to forgive sin. That is what Christ does now as our mediator and as our High Priest in heaven. When we believe, repent, seek forgiveness, and are baptised then we are reconciled to Christ.

In II Cor 5:18-19 is the reconciliation of the world to God by Christ. Its purpose is what Paul states in vs 20 that we should reconcile ourselves to God. This we do by faith. It is also called justification by faith. Reconcile and justify have the same meaning, which is to put into a correct relationship.

 

[Mitspa]

The reconciliation is complete. Man does not need to accept it to make it completed. Christ died, that completes the sacrifice. Christ is that Lamb, and is the sacrifice on the Cross. The purpose of that sacrifice for sin was to make it possible for Christ to forgive sin. That is what Christ does now as our mediator and as our High Priest in heaven. When we believe, repent, seek forgiveness, and are baptised then we are reconciled to Christ.

In II Cor 5:18-19 is the reconciliation of the world to God by Christ. Its purpose is what Paul states in vs 20 that we should reconcile ourselves to God. This we do by faith. It is also called justification by faith. Reconcile and justify have the same meaning, which is to put into a correct relationship.

2Co 5:10

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2Co 5:11

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Rom 8:9

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. :o

 

[Cassian]

2Co 5:10

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2Co 5:11

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Rom 8:9

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. :o

and what is your point of the texts?

 

[rrowell]

The reconciliation is complete. Man does not need to accept it to make it completed. Christ died, that completes the sacrifice. Christ is that Lamb, and is the sacrifice on the Cross. The purpose of that sacrifice for sin was to make it possible for Christ to forgive sin. That is what Christ does now as our mediator and as our High Priest in heaven. When we believe, repent, seek forgiveness, and are baptised then we are reconciled to Christ.

In II Cor 5:18-19 is the reconciliation of the world to God by Christ. Its purpose is what Paul states in vs 20 that we should reconcile ourselves to God. This we do by faith. It is also called justification by faith. Reconcile and justify have the same meaning, which is to put into a correct relationship.

Your contradicting yourself, above you falsely say: "The reconciliation is complete. Man does not need to accept it to make it completed."

Then you say: "Paul states in vs 20 that we should reconcile ourselves to God."

What Paul said was:

2 Corinthians 5:18 (KJV)
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

the "us" the ministry of reconciliation were given to was the Apostles, the Apostles are the "ambassadors for Christ", who by their "ministry" revealed it to Man. And what they revealed to Man is "Through Christ" we may be reconciled to God.

2 Corinthians 5:20 (KJV)
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

 

[Cassian]

rrowell,

Your contradicting yourself, above you falsely say: "The reconciliation is complete. Man does not need to accept it to make it completed."
Then you say: "Paul states in vs 20 that we should reconcile ourselves to God."

two distinctly different reconcilations. Read the wording very carefully. It would be quite impossible that Christ's death was actually completed by someone believing. Or that by each person believing, Christ's death would become more complete.

What Paul said was:
2 Corinthians 5:18 (KJV)
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
the "us" the ministry of reconciliation were given to was the Apostles, the Apostles are the "ambassadors for Christ", who by their "ministry" revealed it to Man. And what they revealed to Man is "Through Christ" we may be reconciled to God.

2 Corinthians 5:20 (KJV)
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

it says exactly what I stated.

vs 18 all things are of God, who hath recnciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ. That is the death and resurrection of Christ that reconciled the world to God. Col 1:20 also states the very same thing.

Look at Rom 3:23-24 has the same explanation, of Christ reconciling or justifying freely by His grace through the redemption in Christ, and for what purpose? So that whom God set forth as a propitiation by His bllod, through faith. this is also called justification by faith. We did not, could not do the work to save ourselves. Christ did all the work of salvation, and all we need to do is believe that He saved us, and thus enter into His Kingdom by that faith. Once we enter we are not individually being saved through our faith.

Then, because we were reconciled by Christ, we now can reconcile ourselves to God, which we do by believing, repenting, being baptised. That is also followed the same in Col 1:21-23.

It is theologically, and scripturally impossible that a believer can actually complete Christ's reconciliation of the world. YOu would need to explain just how his death or resurrection is not actually complete until one person believes or some kind of micro-resurrection.

 

[Cassian]

savedbygrace57,

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Unless we understand this, who the all men are in this verse, we are bound to error, and this has been the snare of many false teachers, both of the freewill and the universalism camps. The all men in both instances are the children of God or the Sons of God, but do not include the children of the devil, or of the wicked one, or the seed of the serpent. 1 Jn 3:10

It seems that you need to persist in your error of understanding simple words. This is an equation.

Unless you are prepared to show that not all men were effected by the fall of Adam and that death does not come to all men through Adam, you are teaching falsely regarding scripture.
Very simple, Rom 5:12, states that death came to all men through Adam. That also, life would come to all men through Christ. Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:22 all state the obvious.

YOu have attached a pagan concept, presupposition in your theology and consequently need to redefine words in scripture to support your errant theology. YOu cannot find support for it because there never has been any in scripture to support your errant theology. YOu cannot refute it so you ignore the obvious, hoping to snare some unsuspecting soul into your falsehood.

 

[Butch5]

So as we continue to look at 1 tim 4:10, we have seen that God in a very general and providential manner is the Saviour/ Preserver of all men without exception, that is saved and unsaved.

But then He ad's another comment, especially to them that believe. The word especially is the greek word malista:


especially, chiefly, most of all, above all

Now some say other translations of the gk have the word "namely" as to say:

10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, namely of those that believe.

Also, if we study the word chiefly, one of its meanings is particularly or even specifically.

So the the text could read without violation of the word malista :

10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specifically or particularly of those that believe.

This of course would confirm particular atonement !

So the word malista,appears to be a word or expression to clarify what is being said, so that the proper ideal may be conveyed.

Because if the ideal of all men without exception had the Living God as a Saviour, why add the clarifying remark, let the statement stand alone as like:

10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men.

But Paul does not write it like that, he being guided by the Holy Ghost to add that additional comment.

Now, even though I agree that God in a providential manner is the Saviour of all men without exception, this is not what Paul is referring to in this context.

This context has to do with His spiritual Labor in the Gospel and those things He endures in that regard:

The Labor and suffering reproach is for the ministry sake . 1 pet 4:


14If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

The word labor is used in conjunction with His ministerial efforts 1 cor 15:

10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

gal 4:

11I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

And so He says they Trust in the Living God who is the Saviour all men, both jew and gentile.

See, Paul's primary call and choice was for the ministry unto the gentiles, and so He Trusted God in that, He knew it was God's purpose that gentiles would now Trust in God or in Christ Matt 12:

18Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

19He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.

20A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

And for that cause, Paul suffered reproach and labored Knowing that God in Christ is the Saviour of not just the jews, but all men.

A Saviour saves, not make it possible. Jesus saves from and out of death. How can you merely make it possible for a dead person to be saved out of or from death, they have to me made alive. Its ridiculous to even think that one Has a Saviour from sin and still dies in their sins.

So, I cannot see how 1 tim 4 10 teaches against particular atonement, in fact, it confirms it..

That's a lot of effort to deny God's word.

 

[savedbygrace57]

That's a lot of effort to deny God's word.

You just do not believe the Truth. Please explain to me the points here I have made , and then explain why each point is wrong with scripture !edited