SDA's, JW's, Mormons, etc.

[BB1956]

Play word games all you want, you know what I meant. A sub group or a sect that sprung up around a leader such as Joseph Smith or Ellen White and who reject the teaching of Scirpture as the rule of faith.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are not a cult. Rather, they are Christians who do their best to follow the example set by Jesus Christ and to live by his teachings. Which is more than what I can say about people in protestant and Catholic Churches.

The term “cult” means different things to different people. However, if I consider just two common perceptions regarding the meaning of cults I can see those perceptions don’t apply to Jehovah's Witnesses.

(1) Some think of a cult as being a new or unorthodox religion
But Jehovah’s Witnesses have not invented a new religion. On the contrary, they pattern their worship after that of the first-century Christians, whose example and teachings were recorded in the Bible. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17) They believe that the Holy Scriptures should be the authority on what is orthodox in matters of worship.

(2)Some think of a cult as being a dangerous religious sect with a human leader. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not look to any human as their leader. Rather, they adhere to the standard that Jesus set for his followers when he stated: “Your Leader is one, the Christ.”(Matthew 23:10)

So far from being a dangerous cult, Jehovah’s Witnesses practice a religion that benefits themselves and others in the community. For example, their ministry has helped many people to overcome harmful addictions, such as the abuse of drugs and alcohol. In addition, they conduct literacy classes around the world, helping thousands learn to read and write. And they are actively involved in disaster relief. They work hard to have a positive impact on others, just as Jesus commanded his followers to do at Matthew 5:13-16.

I think that if people think obeying things that the scriptures say people should be involved with is what a cult is, then I'm going to disagree.

 

[Free]

Jehovah’s Witnesses are not a cult. Rather, they are Christians who do their best to follow the example set by Jesus Christ and to live by his teachings. Which is more than what I can say about people in protestant and Catholic Churches.

The term “cult” means different things to different people. However, if I consider just two common perceptions regarding the meaning of cults I can see those perceptions don’t apply to Jehovah's Witnesses.

(1) Some think of a cult as being a new or unorthodox religion
But Jehovah’s Witnesses have not invented a new religion. On the contrary, they pattern their worship after that of the first-century Christians, whose example and teachings were recorded in the Bible. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17) They believe that the Holy Scriptures should be the authority on what is orthodox in matters of worship.

(2)Some think of a cult as being a dangerous religious sect with a human leader. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not look to any human as their leader. Rather, they adhere to the standard that Jesus set for his followers when he stated: “Your Leader is one, the Christ.”(Matthew 23:10)

So far from being a dangerous cult, Jehovah’s Witnesses practice a religion that benefits themselves and others in the community. For example, their ministry has helped many people to overcome harmful addictions, such as the abuse of drugs and alcohol. In addition, they conduct literacy classes around the world, helping thousands learn to read and write. And they are actively involved in disaster relief. They work hard to have a positive impact on others, just as Jesus commanded his followers to do at Matthew 5:13-16.

I think that if people think obeying things that the scriptures say people should be involved with is what a cult is, then I'm going to disagree.

This thread is from 2004. None of these users are here anymore.

But, yes, the JWs most certainly are a cult. They deny the Trinity, the deity of Jesus (he was created as the archangel Michael), the “personhood” of the Holy Spirit, and the physical resurrection of Jesus. They believe in salvation by works and have their own Bible translation that purposely tries to remove the deity of Jesus. These are all core beliefs of Christianity.

That isn’t all their errors but those are the big ones which exclude them from the Christian faith.

 

[Highway54]

When does a cult because not a cult? I think many forget because the number of members in each cult grows, that they are still a cult. SDA’s, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, etc. They’re still cults.

j

What is even more staggering J is the simple fact that people for the most part do not even know what a cult is. Most everyone who posts here, including myself, belongs to some cult. Why else would they be posting here? Bob

 

[Highway54]

Jehovah’s Witnesses are not a cult. Rather, they are Christians who do their best to follow the example set by Jesus Christ and to live by his teachings. Which is more than what I can say about people in protestant and Catholic Churches.

The term “cult” means different things to different people. However, if I consider just two common perceptions regarding the meaning of cults I can see those perceptions don’t apply to Jehovah's Witnesses.

(1) Some think of a cult as being a new or unorthodox religion
But Jehovah’s Witnesses have not invented a new religion. On the contrary, they pattern their worship after that of the first-century Christians, whose example and teachings were recorded in the Bible. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17) They believe that the Holy Scriptures should be the authority on what is orthodox in matters of worship.

(2)Some think of a cult as being a dangerous religious sect with a human leader. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not look to any human as their leader. Rather, they adhere to the standard that Jesus set for his followers when he stated: “Your Leader is one, the Christ.”(Matthew 23:10)

So far from being a dangerous cult, Jehovah’s Witnesses practice a religion that benefits themselves and others in the community. For example, their ministry has helped many people to overcome harmful addictions, such as the abuse of drugs and alcohol. In addition, they conduct literacy classes around the world, helping thousands learn to read and write. And they are actively involved in disaster relief. They work hard to have a positive impact on others, just as Jesus commanded his followers to do at Matthew 5:13-16.

I think that if people think obeying things that the scriptures say people should be involved with is what a cult is, then I'm going to disagree.

I beg to differ with you sir. As you showed in your post, ignorance of what a cult is comes into play. Jehovah's witnesses are in fact a very dedicated cult.

 

[BB1956]

This thread is from 2004. None of these users are here anymore.

But, yes, the JWs most certainly are a cult. They deny the Trinity, the deity of Jesus (he was created as the archangel Michael), the “personhood” of the Holy Spirit, and the physical resurrection of Jesus. They believe in salvation by works and have their own Bible translation that purposely tries to remove the deity of Jesus. These are all core beliefs of Christianity.

That isn’t all their errors but those are the big ones which exclude them from the Christian faith.

I believe the protestants and Catholic churches to be in serious error regarding many things. That includes many of the doctrines that these churches say is in scripture. Also the Catholics tried their best to keep the bible away from the common people. When someone translated the scriptures in the common language of people the church imprisoned him and some were even killed. Also the Catholics and protestants always were fighting and killing one another in wars. Christians are not to be friends with the world. When people who say they are christians fight in wars with another nation that have christians, then none in either nation are true christians. Such people expect me to believe that when Catholics kill Catholics in war or when protestants killed protestants in war or Catholics and protestants killing one another in war, and then try to teach me that is having love among themselves, I'm not going to agree with that. I'm so sick of people who say they're Christians who try to teach me that killing your spiritual brothers and sisters in war is showing love for one another or having love among themselves. Jesus didn't teach his apostles and disciples to kill one another because that wouldn't be having love among themselves or showing love toward one another. True Christians don't become friends with this wicked world we're living in. Spiritual brothers and sisters or I should say people who say they're spiritual brothers and sisters don't teach to kill one another because of a social difference or political difference, etc.

 

[BB1956]

I beg to differ with you sir. As you showed in your post, ignorance of what a cult is comes into play. Jehovah's witnesses are in fact a very dedicated cult.

Actually they're not but it really doesn't matter. The Christians were called a sect in the apostles time.

 

[Free]

I believe the protestants and Catholic churches to be in serious error regarding many things. That includes many of the doctrines that these churches say is in scripture.

Well, all the things I listed are in Scripture and can be seen in later writings since the 2nd century, with the exception of an explicit doctrine of the Trinity, but the foundations are all there for it. Even just to deny the physical resurrection of Christ puts JWs out of Christianity and into cult status.

Also the Catholics tried their best to keep the bible away from the common people. When someone translated the scriptures in the common language of people the church imprisoned him and some were even killed. Also the Catholics and protestants always were fighting and killing one another in wars. Christians are not to be friends with the world. When people who say they are christians fight in wars with another nation that have christians, then none in either nation are true christians. Such people expect me to believe that when Catholics kill Catholics in war or when protestants killed protestants in war or Catholics and protestants killing one another in war, and then try to teach me that is having love among themselves, I'm not going to agree with that. I'm so sick of people who say they're Christians who try to teach me that killing your spiritual brothers and sisters in war is showing love for one another or having love among themselves. Jesus didn't teach his apostles and disciples to kill one another because that wouldn't be having love among themselves or showing love toward one another. True Christians don't become friends with this wicked world we're living in. Spiritual brothers and sisters or I should say people who say they're spiritual brothers and sisters don't teach to kill one another because of a social difference or political difference, etc.

Okay, but that is an entirely different issue. For that, I strongly suggest reading Bullies and Saints, by John Dickson.

 

[BB1956]

You said "Even just to deny the physical resurrection of Christ puts JWs out of Christianity and into cult status."

Actually it makes us christians, the ones who actually believe or have faith that Jesus sacrificed his physical human body, that he sacrificed his life as a human person. This means Jesus gave up his physical human body he gave up his life as a human person. Jesus sacrificed his human body, or his life as a human person, Jesus gave up (sacrficed) his physical human body his life as a human person. If Jesus took back his physical human body, if he was resurrected as a human person again, then Jesus didn't give up his physical human body, he didn't sacrifice his life as a human person.

It seems to me that Protestants and Catholics are teaching that Jesus took his physical human body back, so they don't actually believe or have faith that Jesus sacrificed or gave up his physical human body, or his life as a human person?
The scriptures are very clear to me. The apostle Peter said at 1 Peter 3:18, 19, "For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit."

So 1 Peter 3:18,19 is teaching us that Almighty God didn't resurrect Jesus with a human body so he wasn't resurrected as a human person but God raised him as a spirit person, an incorruptible death-proof or immortal spirit person.
Jesus’ physical body had been sown in death, as a sacrifice for God to dispose of. So Jesus was raised to heavenly life with a “spiritual body,” glorious, clothed upon with immortality, never to die again. (1 Corinthians 15:42-54)

So what I'm understanding about the Catholic and protestant Churches, is that, not only do they deny that it's the only begotten Son of God who is the word, and because they deny that it's the only begotten Son of God who is the word they are denying it's the only begotten Son of God who became flesh\human and came to the world of mankind. But they also deny that the only begotten Son of God didn't sacrifice his physical human body or his life as a human person.

 

[Hidden In Him]

This thread is from 2004. None of these users are here anymore.

Why do they do this? I've noticed it's like a modus operandi with the JWs. They'll often dig up some old thread from the crypt somewhere and start responding to it like it was posted yesterday. And someone invariably thinks it's a new thread as well, and starts interacting with people who likely went on to be with the Lord years ago.

It's an irritating habit they have and it throws people off, but they do it for reasons I have yet to figure out.

 

[Highway54]

Actually they're not but it really doesn't matter. The Christians were called a sect in the apostles time.

Yes, we are a sect as well. All sects would be considered cults as well BB.

 

[Free]

Actually it makes us christians, the ones who actually believe or have faith that Jesus sacrificed his physical human body, that he sacrificed his life as a human person. This means Jesus gave up his physical human body he gave up his life as a human person. Jesus sacrificed his human body, or his life as a human person, Jesus gave up (sacrficed) his physical human body his life as a human person. If Jesus took back his physical human body, if he was resurrected as a human person again, then Jesus didn't give up his physical human body, he didn't sacrifice his life as a human person.

Please allow me to lay out my case that true Christian belief is that Jesus was raised physically. That is Paul's whole point in 1 Cor 15:

1Co 15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
1Co 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Co 15:5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
1Co 15:6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.

What is Paul talking about here? He is repeating what has already been stated in the gospel accounts:

Mat 28:5 But the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified.
Mat 28:6 He is not here, for he has risen, as he said. Come, see the place where he lay.
Mat 28:7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples that he has risen from the dead, and behold, he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him. See, I have told you.”
...
Mat 28:11 While they were going, behold, some of the guard went into the city and told the chief priests all that had taken place.
Mat 28:12 And when they had assembled with the elders and taken counsel, they gave a sufficient sum of money to the soldiers
Mat 28:13 and said, “Tell people, ‘His disciples came by night and stole him away while we were asleep.’

Mar 16:4 And looking up, they saw that the stone had been rolled back—it was very large.
Mar 16:5 And entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, dressed in a white robe, and they were alarmed.
Mar 16:6 And he said to them, “Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen; he is not here. See the place where they laid him.
Mar 16:7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.”

Luk 24:1 But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they went to the tomb, taking the spices they had prepared.
Luk 24:2 And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb,
Luk 24:3 but when they went in they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.
Luk 24:4 While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men stood by them in dazzling apparel.
Luk 24:5 And as they were frightened and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead?
Luk 24:6 He is not here, but has risen. Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee,
Luk 24:7 that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be crucified and on the third day rise.”
...
Luk 24:12 But Peter rose and ran to the tomb; stooping and looking in, he saw the linen cloths by themselves; and he went home marveling at what had happened.
...
Luk 24:38 And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
Luk 24:40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.
Luk 24:41 And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?”
Luk 24:42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish,
Luk 24:43 and he took it and ate before them.

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
Joh 2:20 The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?”
Joh 2:21 But he was speaking about the temple of his body.
Joh 2:22 When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

Joh 20:1 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.
Joh 20:2 So she ran and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.”
Joh 20:3 So Peter went out with the other disciple, and they were going toward the tomb.
Joh 20:4 Both of them were running together, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first.
Joh 20:5 And stooping to look in, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not go in.
Joh 20:6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloths lying there,
Joh 20:7 and the face cloth, which had been on Jesus' head, not lying with the linen cloths but folded up in a place by itself.
Joh 20:8 Then the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed;
Joh 20:9 for as yet they did not understand the Scripture, that he must rise from the dead.
...
Joh 20:13 They said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?” She said to them, “They have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid him.”
Joh 20:14 Having said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing, but she did not know that it was Jesus.
Joh 20:15 Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?” Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.”
...
Joh 20:25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.”
Joh 20:26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.”
Joh 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.”

The above passages make it abundantly clear that Jesus's body was raised from the dead--it was nowhere to be found, despite the linens remaining in the tomb. Jesus had the marks of the nails in his hands and the hole in his side. He even says he has "flesh and bones." John 2:21 tells us clearly that Jesus even said he was going to raise his body after three days.

There is simply no way one can claim to have read and understood the NT and come to believe that Jesus wasn't raised physically, only spiritually in a "spirit body." Why is it so important to believe that Jesus was physically raised again (yes, in a glorified body; a "spiritualized," physical body)?

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
1Co 15:14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.
1Co 15:15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised.
1Co 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
1Co 15:19 If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.
1Co 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
1Co 15:21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

(All ESV.)

Jesus very clearly physically died and physically rose again--that was the whole point of his coming. If a person or sect does not believe that Jesus was physically raised, then, based on 1 Cor 15:12-23, they cannot be Christian.

 

[Free]

Actually it makes us christians, the ones who actually believe or have faith that Jesus sacrificed his physical human body, that he sacrificed his life as a human person. This means Jesus gave up his physical human body he gave up his life as a human person. Jesus sacrificed his human body, or his life as a human person, Jesus gave up (sacrficed) his physical human body his life as a human person. If Jesus took back his physical human body, if he was resurrected as a human person again, then Jesus didn't give up his physical human body, he didn't sacrifice his life as a human person.

It seems to me that Protestants and Catholics are teaching that Jesus took his physical human body back, so they don't actually believe or have faith that Jesus sacrificed or gave up his physical human body, or his life as a human person?
The scriptures are very clear to me. The apostle Peter said at 1 Peter 3:18, 19, "For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit."

So 1 Peter 3:18,19 is teaching us that Almighty God didn't resurrect Jesus with a human body so he wasn't resurrected as a human person but God raised him as a spirit person, an incorruptible death-proof or immortal spirit person.

To make a doctrine out of one verse is dangerous, and in this case it is clear why it is dangerous--because that doctrine stands in clear contradiction to the numerous other passages and verses I gave. This means that the understanding you have given here of 1 Pet 3:18 is incorrect; it simply cannot be stating that Jesus was only spiritually raised. One of the basic principles of biblical interpretation is that verses that are less clear are to be understood in the light of those that are clear.

Whatever Peter is saying, he certainly is not saying that Jesus wasn't physically raised, since, as the gospel accounts show, Peter was one of those who looked into the tomb and saw only the linens there that Jesus's body was wrapped in, not his body. We also see in 1 Pet 1:21 that he states Jesus was raised from the dead and in 3:21 the mention of the resurrection. Note also verse 19 of chapter 3: "in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison" (ESV). That is connected with his being "made alive in the spirit."

A couple of main views about 1 Pet 3:18 are 1) that he began to exist spiritually, between his death and resurrection, or 2) is speaking of his being raised by the power of the Spirit, or his Spirit.

Jesus’ physical body had been sown in death, as a sacrifice for God to dispose of. So Jesus was raised to heavenly life with a “spiritual body,” glorious, clothed upon with immortality, never to die again. (1 Corinthians 15:42-54)

As I stated previously, his body was physically raised, but it was a glorified or "spiritualized" physical body.

1Co 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. (ESV)

There is never any indication that what is raised is something entirely other. It is what is sown that is raised. That is, the physical body is sown and so the physical body is what is raised, yet it has been changed to be imperishable--glorified and in power.

So what I'm understanding about the Catholic and protestant Churches, is that, not only do they deny that it's the only begotten Son of God who is the word, and because they deny that it's the only begotten Son of God who is the word they are denying it's the only begotten Son of God who became flesh\human and came to the world of mankind.

None of this is denied. It is actually JWs who deny Jesus is the Word, as described in John 1:1-8 and, therefore, have an incorrect view of the Son of God. This is the most serious error, which leads directly into the other errors, such as that Jesus wasn't physically raised, and that despite the absolutely clear teaching of Scripture.

But they also deny that the only begotten Son of God didn't sacrifice his physical human body or his life as a human person.

On the contrary, I have given ample passages to support the belief that we very much do believe Jesus physically died. That is the only Christian belief on that matter. However, it is also Christian belief that he was physically raised, albeit spiritually changed to be imperishable as the firstfruits of what we are to become.