Seeing the Day Approaching.

[Dorothy Mae]

1 Thessalonians 4:15 involves the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the raising up of those who are alive and remain.

JLB

Agreed. But it actually IS the resurrection of the dead, not merely involving them.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

World, earth and land all mean the same thing in scripture unless the word land is only used for a certain land mass like that of the land of Canaan for an example.

Yes, the Greek word means those but I am not so sure it can be translated “planet” and stay true to the meaning. It is the place where we live and does not refer to all the humans in the planet which is the meaning Marilyn wanted.

With all due respect to you and how you believe, just because we disagree does not mean I can not write those things you disagree with.

I asked you to address my post which you did not previously. I had written of the Greek word and you attached my general position ignoring the actual post I wrote. I didn’t say you couldn’t write. I only said it would been better not to ignore the actual post information.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

These people still walk among us and will continue to walk among us until the books are opened and then they will be judged and have their part in the lake of fire. These are those who will suffer the wrath of God during the seven trumpets and seven vial judgements that have not happened yet.

ok, I agree although a number of these are now dead and will be resurrected to face judgement.

 

[Marilyn C]

I see that this thread has been taken off topic. So those who want to talk about other topics please start your own thread.

This thread is about what is happening now and our response - see OP.

If people keep taking this thread off topic then I will need to report them to the moderators. Then the comments will be deleted and the people warned.

It is quite rude to be discussing another topic and interfering with other`s discussions.

So to those who want to discuss the OP let`s keep going and see how the Holy Spirit leads us.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I do believe in future end time events that have not yet happened yet. Not everything was fulfilled in 70AD as the Preterist teach. Yes, God did pour out His wrath as we read in the OT, but also as we read in the NT of those things Jesus taught us about that must come first before He returns.

Your position is called Futurism. It has a name. It’s best if we use it.

The coming of Christ is AFTER his wrath was poured out of the Jews who crucified the son of God who actually called the curse down upon themselves “his blood be upon us and our children.” God took them at their word. Anyway, it is afterwards, just not immediately.

The seven trumpets beginning in Revelation 8:6 and ending on the last day when Christ returns are all about Gods wrath being poured out upon all nations and has everything to do with Gods Salvation.

That’s not immediately following. Can you please supply the verse in Revelation that says immediately following those terrible events Christ comes?

Many during this time will repent and turn back to God as they will finally have ears to hear the gospel being preached to them by all those who are still alive at this time and have Gods anointing to preach the Gospel.

Rev 16:9 says that during this time of terrible tribulation they will refuse to repent. I read it no repentance during those events in revelation. I am aware if the theology that teaches a great harvest of souls. I don’t see it in Revelation.

There are no separate trumpets for the saints and sinners as there are only seven that are sounded by the angels as God sends each one out as the soundings brings in all of Gods wrath upon those who refuse to repent and turn back to Him. God said that He would that none should perish, 2 Peter 3:9. Even though God's longsuffering and patience will come to an end as everyone will have an opportunity to repent as the Gospels will have been preached to everyone, but it is only those who will accept Gods free gift of grace, Ephesians 2:8, by faith will be saved. All Christians including those who at this time of the end have finally accepted Jesus will have eternal life with the Father.

I decided to do a Bible search on “accept Jesus” and got no results whatsoever. I suspect this is the modern painless to the pride gospel. The NT gospel is REPENT and believe which is not so painless to the pride. “Believing” means altering your choices accordingly. The trumpets I’ll address shortly.

There are three woes in Revelations as each one is worse than the other. The first one starts with the opening of the seventh seal in Rev 8:1 through Rev 9:12 that include the first five trumpets. The second woe starts in Rev 9:13 with the sixth trumpet and ends in Rev 11:14. The third woe starts with the seventh trumpet in Rev 11:15 ending in Rev 20:15.

It's during the sounding of the seventh trumpet as being the last trumpet mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 that during this last trumpet mystery Babylon being the mother of harlots will be revealed as the the son of perdition will be exposed, 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

The “last trumpet” you have assumed is the 7th. You assume there are only 7 at all. There is no reason to assume that from the text. The description in the letters of Paul does not follow the Revelation of Jesus Christ in timing. That the events will happen is sure. When is not in the text you cite. There is no reason to think the 7th during those terrible days is the last trumpet. Revelation doesn’t say it’s the”last” trumpet and Paul doesn’t say it’s the 7th.

Paul writes of the Resurrection. No mention of terrible events preceding it.

This is the false prophet as he forces all to bow down to him and take the mark of the beast or face persecution even to death as many saints of God at this time will die a martyr's death for their witness and testimony of Christ. Many who are weak in faith will fall away from Christ as they accept this mark as they fear for their own lives as this is the falling away the scriptures speak of in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 and Hebrews 6:4-6 as many will be deceived as even now by all the false doctrines that are being taught by man.

This is the Futurist thinking for sure. A weakness in Futurism is that you cannot site Revelation from beginning to end of your position for support. Hence you need bits from elsewhere that aren’t necessarily addressing the same time period.

The passage in Thessalonians does refer to that time although the writing is not in chronological order. His point was to comfort the believers that they haven’t missed anything. We cannot infer that all of that is our future as it was theirs. One can read it either way, futurist or preterist.

It's not until after the seven vial judgements, Rev 16, that mystery Babylon the great is exposed, Rev 17, and then destroyed,

Well what can I say? We think that was Jerusalem and it’s in the past. You think it’s before us.

Rev 18, as Christ returns in the air with His army of angels, Rev 19:11-21, being only the heavenly host (angels) as no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven, John 3:13. At this time on the last day, John 6:40, Christ will destroy the beast and the false prophet, being the son of perdition, casting them into the lake of fire and slaying the remnant, possibly being the leaders of every nation that the beast out of the sea in Rev 13 controls and gives power to as they rule over the nations.

Again, we see these two chapters differently. The futurists see it as literally and physically happening and the preterists as a metaphor, just as real but not as physical events to be observed with the physical eyes. It would take a long time and lots of space to hammer out the differences, although it could be done without malice or breaking ties of fellowship.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I see that this thread has been taken off topic. So those who want to talk about other topics please start your own thread.

This thread is about what is happening now and our response - see OP.

If people keep taking this thread off topic then I will need to report them to the moderators. Then the comments will be deleted and the people warned.

It is quite rude to be discussing another topic and interfering with other`s discussions.

So to those who want to discuss the OP let`s keep going and see how the Holy Spirit leads us.

regards, Marilyn.

The Holy Spirit is leading us to discuss the topic from a wider view. Would you have what He leads deleted?

Marilyn, you’ve lost positive control of the thread you started which you wanted to limit to your viewpoint. If you insist only those who agree with you post, then please make that clear. Please indicate next time, “only those who are futurists post please” and those who aren’t can know they ought to stay away.

Having said that, I will bow to your wishes and not post here. Sorry for_his_glory, I need to leave the thread. It’s only for futurists.

 

[JLB]

Agreed. But it actually IS the resurrection of the dead, not merely involving them.

Yes, it’s the resurrection of the dead, but also the rapture of catching up of those who are alive, in which both those who are alive along with the dead in Christ are caught up together to be gathered to Him.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

• And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them

JLB

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes, it’s the resurrection of the dead, but also the rapture of catching up of those who are alive, in which both those who are alive along with the dead in Christ are caught up together to be gathered to Him.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

• And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them

JLB

Well, it’s not called the Rapture in scripture but the Resurrection which is the major event. The Resurrection involves those alive, true. The majority, by far, are the dead being Resurrected. It is the term used.

 

[eddif]

That is the Resurrection where the dead rise first.The dead are being Resurrected. Means it is the Resurrection. If you think about it, why do you think the dead are raised from the grave but it’s not the resurrection?

But the verse itself says the dead rise out of the graves first. How can that not be the Resurrection?

You are right up against the ignored mini resurrection, that occurred at the time of the resurrection of Jesus.

I have opinions, but no real proof. The conversation will possibly not fit any known or possibly allowed threads.

Are you fishing for a discussion? You may have trouble finding a place.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[JLB]

Your position is called Futurism. It has a name. It’s best if we use it.

That name is not biblical. It’s a man made term that is used to divide the body of Christ.

Because a person believes the resurrection is not past or that Jesus has not returned, doesn’t make them a “futurist”.

Some things in scripture have come to pass and have been fulfilled.

Other things such as the resurrection of the dead in Christ have yet to take place.


This is the simple truth; we both know and believe the truth.


This is what Christians should know and believe.


Example:


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 1 Timothy 4:1-3

• by those who believe and know the truth.

Teaching that the coming of the Lord and the resurrection of the dead in Christ is past, is not the truth.

• who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past;

And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
2 Timothy 2:17-18





JLB

 

[JLB]

Well, it’s not called the Rapture in scripture

I also referred to it as the “catching up” or “raising up” of those who are alive and remain, together with the dead in Christ.

Both involved receiving a new glorified eternal body.


Paul says it this way to the Corinthians —


Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53

• We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

JLB

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That name is not biblical. It’s a man made term that is used to divide the body of Christ.

You need to tell the others not to use Preterism for the same reason if you want to be fair.

Because a person believes the resurrection is not past or that Jesus has not returned, doesn’t make them a “futurist”.

If they believe the times of tribulation are future they are, by definition, a futurist. That’s the discussion, the times of great tribulation, not the return of Christ.

Some things in scripture have come to pass and have been fulfilled.

Other things such as the resurrection of the dead in Christ have yet to take place.

I agree.

This is the simple truth; we both know and believe the truth.

Well, we can’t all disagree and all know the truth. That’s logic even if not democratic.

This is what Christians should know and believe.


Example:


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 1 Timothy 4:1-3

• by those who believe and know the truth.

Teaching that the coming of the Lord and the resurrection of the dead in Christ is past, is not the truth.

Who is teaching this? Talk to
them, please.

• who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past;

And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
2 Timothy 2:17-18

Talk to Hymenaeus and co., then please.

Your comments don’t reflect what I said.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I also referred to it as the “catching up” or “raising up” of those who are alive and remain, together with the dead in Christ.

Both involved receiving a new glorified eternal body.


Paul says it this way to the Corinthians —


Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53

• We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

JLB

Sounds good. Just call it “The Resurrection” and you’ll be fully Biblical even if in hot water with the Futurists.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You are right up against the ignored mini resurrection, that occurred at the time of the resurrection of Jesus.

I have opinions, but no real proof. The conversation will possibly not fit any known or possibly allowed threads.

Are you fishing for a discussion? You may have trouble finding a place.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

The resurrection that occurred when Jesus was resurrected I haven’t discussed at all. In any case, I promised Marilyn I’d keep out of her “thread for futurists only” and I’ve forgotten.

My apologies Marilyn.

 

[eddif]

I see that this thread has been taken off topic. So those who want to talk about other topics please start your own thread.

This thread is about what is happening now and our response - see OP.

If people keep taking this thread off topic then I will need to report them to the moderators. Then the comments will be deleted and the people warned.

It is quite rude to be discussing another topic and interfering with other`s discussions.

So to those who want to discuss the OP let`s keep going and see how the Holy Spirit leads us.

regards, Marilyn.

Could you in any ways tell me if any part of this can explain where you want us to direct our comments?

Futurism (Christianity) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

eddif

 

[eddif]

The resurrection that occurred when Jesus was resurrected I haven’t discussed at all. In any case, I promised Marilyn I’d keep out of her “thread for futurists only” and I’ve forgotten.

My apologies Marilyn.

Dorothy
Actually I was going toward history.

What happened in history is actually IMHO, a shadow of things to come. The shadows of things to come are more physical. However, to a person looking to the future (bringing up the past), seems to be an attack on their conversation about the future.

I try to look at the past as being real, but more importantly looking to a more important spiritual reality.

Jerusalem in history foreshadows a New Jerusalem.
But
As a redneck (looking through welding lenses) I do not see all the aspects of this New Jerusalem. Abraham probably had more understanding than I do.
Hebrews 11:10

Glare (outside light) inside a welding helmet can cause some people extreme visual problems ( I qualify ). Struggling with doctrine is similar. Comments by others interfere with spiritual vision at times.

My box of thoughts has more and more compartments as time goes along. Some compartments I keep the lid closed. Some I have a do not open posted on the lid. Truth has no lid, but I have compassion for those who are on their way to truth. The eyes of our understanding in Christ can be helped.

eddif

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, the Greek word means those but I am not so sure it can be translated “planet” and stay true to the meaning. It is the place where we live and does not refer to all the humans in the planet which is the meaning Marilyn wanted.

I asked you to address my post which you did not previously. I had written of the Greek word and you attached my general position ignoring the actual post I wrote. I didn’t say you couldn’t write. I only said it would been better not to ignore the actual post information.

ok, I agree although a number of these are now dead and will be resurrected to face judgement.

I apologize that I did not see you asking a question earlier. Trying to keep up with this thread and have missed a few things.

All the dead, saints and those who rejected Jesus will all be raised from their graves together at the same time as Jesus will separate the sheep from the goats, Matthew 25:31-46; John 5:28-29. One resurrection, two different judgements.

 

[for_his_glory]

I see that this thread has been taken off topic. So those who want to talk about other topics please start your own thread.

This thread is about what is happening now and our response - see OP.

If people keep taking this thread off topic then I will need to report them to the moderators. Then the comments will be deleted and the people warned.

It is quite rude to be discussing another topic and interfering with other`s discussions.

So to those who want to discuss the OP let`s keep going and see how the Holy Spirit leads us.

regards, Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn C

Could you direct us as to what it is specifically what it is you want to discuss?

I do see how we have taken this off topic by talking about a Rapture and the resurrection of the dead and I apologize for that.

Everyone including me, there will be no more talk about the Rapture or the resurrection of the dead as per the OP we are to be discussing what we need to be seeing as the days before Christ return. If anyone would like to start a new thread on the Rapture and the resurrection please do so as we have derailed this thread. Any more post about the Rapture and the resurrection will be deleted as being off topic.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dorothy
Actually I was going toward history.

What happened in history is actually IMHO, a shadow of things to come. The shadows of things to come are more physical. However, to a person looking to the future (bringing up the past), seems to be an attack on their conversation about the future.

I try to look at the past as being real, but more importantly looking to a more important spiritual reality.

Jerusalem in history foreshadows a New Jerusalem.
But
As a redneck (looking through welding lenses) I do not see all the aspects of this New Jerusalem. Abraham probably had more understanding than I do.
Hebrews 11:10

Glare (outside light) inside a welding helmet can cause some people extreme visual problems ( I qualify ). Struggling with doctrine is similar. Comments by others interfere with spiritual vision at times.

My box of thoughts has more and more compartments as time goes along. Some compartments I keep the lid closed. Some I have a do not open posted on the lid. Truth has no lid, but I have compassion for those who are on their way to truth. The eyes of our understanding in Christ can be helped.

eddif

I’m afraid I don’t see the day approaching, the OP, so I ought not participate. Back to the OP!

 

[JLB]

Sounds good. Just call it “The Resurrection” and you’ll be fully Biblical even if in hot water with the Futurists.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ and the resurrection of the living in Christ.

Is this what you prefer?

 

[Marilyn C]

The Holy Spirit is leading us to discuss the topic from a wider view. Would you have what He leads deleted?

Marilyn, you’ve lost positive control of the thread you started which you wanted to limit to your viewpoint. If you insist only those who agree with you post, then please make that clear. Please indicate next time, “only those who are futurists post please” and those who aren’t can know they ought to stay away.

Having said that, I will bow to your wishes and not post here. Sorry for_his_glory, I need to leave the thread. It’s only for futurists.

Hi Dorothy,

Yes I do want to go where the Holy Spirit leads, as that is why I wrote the OP. Now if you or others want to talk specifically about a Preterist view then a thread needs to be started for that. If that topic comes into every thread then that is all that is being discussed, it takes over. And that would then negate what the Holy Spirit desired for a particular topic, that is not Preterist.

So hopefully you can still join us in relation to the OP as to what is happening NOW, in our time.

regards, Marilyn.