Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Self Assurance Doctrines
- Thread starter grace2
- Start date
Why are you repeating what I have been saying?
Yes, and we could be one of them too.
I agree with you.
I am just adding another facet to it.
There is no need for repeating, friend.
Agreed, so let's keep our focus on the "prize".
Follow this "free"way to the end, and leave the exit-ramps to the double-minded.
Let's focus on the topic.
I'ld say it has just about run its course, unless new participants show up.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Obviously, there's lot's of difference. That's why you have to distinguish between the two when throwing the word 'judgement' around. All will be subjected to the judgment of examination, but only the unrighteous will be subject to the judgement of damnation (Matthew 25:31-46).
But we can know ahead of time if we are heading toward the judgment of condemnation or not by if we believe and are bearing the fruit of the Holy Spirit. As long as you are believing and have the Holy Spirit in you as evidenced by the fruit it produces you have the guarantee of safe passage through the coming judgment by fire:
21Now it is God who establishes both us and you in Christ. He anointed us, 22placed His seal on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a pledge of what is to come. 2 Corinthians 1:21-22
13And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14
It's a guarantee. As long as you have the pledge and guarantee of the Spirit in you through continued believing you know exactly what judgment you will face when Christ comes back for his own. Perhaps the argument you really should be making is no one knows for sure if they'll keep believing.
Tenchi
Member
Our continued relationship to God - salvation/adoption/redemption - is not contingent upon our belief but upon our Savior who is our Salvation (John 1:4; John 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 Timothy 2:5; 1 John 5:11-13). Enjoying the benefits of fellowship with God are, however, entirely dependent upon our continuing to walk by faith with Him (2 Corinthians 5:7), trusting in His promises to us. And we don't save ourselves; God saves us. It is, I think, the evilest (and most blasphemous) sort of pride to think we can contribute to his perfectly-accomplished work at Calvary, that we must add our own corrupt human effort to his in order to make his salvation of us "stick," to make it truly redemptive. Jesus keeps us, even when we are wandering "sheep." (Hebrews 13:5; Romans 8:35-39; John 10:27-29; Matthew 18:11-14)
Judas was never born-again. This is clearly evident from the information about him we're given in Scripture:
John 6:67-71
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will you also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? you have the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that you are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
John 12:4-6
4 But Judas Iscariot, one of His disciples, who was intending to betray Him, *said,
5 "Why was this perfume not sold for three hundred denarii and given to poor people?"
6 Now he said this, not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box, he used to pilfer what was put into it.
John 13:1-2
1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;
Last edited:
Jesus isn't "the salvation" of unbelievers.
By wasting your time trying to find a difference between fellowship and relationship, all you do is waste time
For sure.
What info do we have that any of the other eleven were born again?
It is not written that any of them got rebaptized in the name of Jesus Christ...ie, were crucified with Him and raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
We do, however, see that they did receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and we know the Spirit of God will not reside in a polluted temple.
So rebirth is tacitly understood.
It is guaranteed if you are obedient to God and Jesus until the end.
Tenchi
Member
I didn't say he was; not in a direct, personal way. He is, though, the Savior of the world in a potential sense:
1 John 4:14
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
1 John 2:1-2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
John 1:29
29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
John 12:46-47
46 I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness.
47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
You're entitled to your opinion, however mistaken.
By ignoring the very important difference between relationship and fellowship, you ensure that you will profoundly misunderstand God's word and what it is to walk with Him.
You made the assertion that "Judas gave away his salvation." He never had it, as the verses I offered show.
See Acts 2. This is the recounting of their spiritual birth and baptism into Christ by the Holy Spirit. This was the moment when the disciples were born-again.
False. It was precisely because born-again believers were not perfect in their understanding and conduct that the various letters of the NT were written! See: 1 Corinthians 3:1-3, 5, 6, 11; Revelation 2-3, Ephesians 5:1-13; 2 Corinthians 6:14-18, etc.
Jethro Bodine
Member
The guarantee does have a condition attached to it. You must keep believing (1 John 2:24-25). But as long as you are satisfying that condition you do indeed have the guarantee that you will pass safely through the coming Judgment of fire. That's what faith in Jesus is all about! If you don't have faith that Jesus is going to rescue you from the coming Judgement you literally do not have faith in Jesus. You are, by definition, an unbeliever. You do not believe in the salvation of God.
That's why you should not claim to be saved or born again.
Why such a twisted rebuttal?
It is not such an honest thing to do.
You used up all kinds of excuses to justify your man-made doctrines.
Now you are only recycling them.
I am done with you.
It is meaningless talking with you.
Good day.
Last edited:
Jethro Bodine
Member
Why, because you do not believe? Of course the unbeliever who does not have faith that Jesus' substitutionary death has rescued them from God's judgement should not say he is saved or born again. For only he who believes that Jesus' death has saved them is saved. That's how a person gets saved. Only those who believe have passed from death to life and will not come into the judgment of condemnation (John 5:24).
The story of Noah and the ark came up in another thread.
Were Noah and his family saved from the flood waters before or after the flood came?
Jethro Bodine
Member
Don't get angry. If you do not believe that Jesus has you covered and that you will pass safely through the coming judgment you are by definition an unbeliever.
Tenchi
Member
Could any human being save themselves from the penalty and power of Sin? The Bible is unequivocal and plain in answering "No." Our salvation is entirely Christ's domain; he is our Savior and our Salvation, sharing these roles and titles with no one outside of the Godhead (John 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 Timothy 2:5; 1 John 5:11-12). To our salvation the Bible is also clear we can contribute nothing, which is why we need a Savior. When a person trusts in Christ as their Savior and submits to him as their Lord, they are born a second time, given a new, spiritual identity in Christ, and made a "new creature" in and by him (2 Corinthians 5:17; Romans 8:9-15; Romans 6:1-11; Ephesians 1:1-13, etc.). In other words, they are changed in a very fundamental way, not by their own power, not by contributing to Christ's perfect work, but by the Spirit of Christ alone who baptizes the believer into Christ Jesus, washing and regenerating them spiritually and making them new (Titus 3:5-8; Romans 8:9-13; 1 John 4:13). None of this is in the least contingent upon anything but the willingness of the humble, repentant sinner to believe and receive from Christ his saving work.
So, the believer is profoundly altered when Christ comes to dwell within him, given an entirely new nature by the Holy Spirit. Solely by the Spirit's power is the believer enabled, not just to do God's will, but to desire to do it; the born-again man can only work out what God has first worked into him (or her) by the Spirit (Philippians 2:12b-13). All this is necessary because, apart from God, apart from His enabling power, we can do nothing (John 15:4-5). We come to God "without strength," "foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another" (Romans 5:6; Titus 3:5). Prior to salvation, every person is "dead in trespasses and sins," bound under the power of the World, the Flesh and the devil (Ephesians 2:1-3). In such a condition, none of us can contribute in the slightest to saving ourselves. Even our understanding has to be aided by the convicting, illuminating and drawing efforts of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8; 1 Corinthians 2:10-16; John 6:44; 2 Timothy 2:25) in order for us to respond in faith to the truth of the Gospel.
In light of all this, what possible contribution can any of us make to the maintenance of our salvation? Any strength we have spiritually is in God, dwelling in us in the Person of the Holy Spirit more precisely, not in ourselves. In-and-of ourselves, we've got nothing we can contribute to what God has done in saving us, and is doing in making us more and more like Jesus Christ. But some hold that our faith is actually what saves us. So long as one's faith remains strong (whatever that means), one's salvation remains intact. In the minds of some, Jesus only kick-starts salvation; he gets it going for us, but we have to keep it going. Salvation is, then, a partnership, really; our spiritual regeneration is our doing as much as Christ's, in the end. In other words, Jesus has a co-Savior in each one of those who are saved.
To my mind, this is deeply blasphemous stuff. The Bible is crystal clear about how destitute of what was necessary to save ourselves we all were and how, without God, we can only continue to be so after our salvation. Christ is himself the believer's spiritual Life (Colossians 3:4); given what Scripture indicates, it is impossible such life could be located in anything within the believer's own natural capacities. Nonetheless, some want to intrude upon what God did for Man through Christ; they want to elevate themselves such that they can fulfill, or contribute to, or maintain, what only divine perfection and infiniteness could accomplish; they don't want to humble themselves under the truth of their deep impotence and foulness, but defy this reality by way of pious self-effort.
The many proof-texts to which these blasphemous "co-Saviors" refer in support of their blasphemy, aren't, by-and-large warning of lost salvation, but of failing to be saved at all, or of lost fellowship with God. The born-again person who ceases to believe God, to trust in His promises and to count on the truth of who He says they are in Christ, doesn't lose a salvation they had no part in achieving, but is cut-off from the joy, peace and grace of fellowship with God. It is to this fellowship that God's salvation of us is aimed; He wants more than merely to adopt us; His desire is for intimate, daily, direct communion with us. (1 Corinthians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 13:13; 1 John 1:3) This abundant, love-filled, transformative fellowship is supposed to be the ground of, the motivation for, all Christian living. We fall away from all of what could be ours in fellowship with God when we draw back in unbelief from the "exceeding great and precious promises" of God by which we are made "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:2-4); we don't, however, lose our redeemed, justified and sanctified status, our salvation, which rests entirely in Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:30).
What freedom, and joy, and peace there is in abandoning the blasphemous, fear-mongering, saved-and-lost, works-salvation ideas that some are so eager to promote! What greater, better motivation there is to be found for holy, Christ-centered living in love and grace than in fear, pride and legalism!
So, the believer is profoundly altered when Christ comes to dwell within him, given an entirely new nature by the Holy Spirit. Solely by the Spirit's power is the believer enabled, not just to do God's will, but to desire to do it; the born-again man can only work out what God has first worked into him (or her) by the Spirit (Philippians 2:12b-13). All this is necessary because, apart from God, apart from His enabling power, we can do nothing (John 15:4-5). We come to God "without strength," "foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another" (Romans 5:6; Titus 3:5). Prior to salvation, every person is "dead in trespasses and sins," bound under the power of the World, the Flesh and the devil (Ephesians 2:1-3). In such a condition, none of us can contribute in the slightest to saving ourselves. Even our understanding has to be aided by the convicting, illuminating and drawing efforts of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8; 1 Corinthians 2:10-16; John 6:44; 2 Timothy 2:25) in order for us to respond in faith to the truth of the Gospel.
In light of all this, what possible contribution can any of us make to the maintenance of our salvation? Any strength we have spiritually is in God, dwelling in us in the Person of the Holy Spirit more precisely, not in ourselves. In-and-of ourselves, we've got nothing we can contribute to what God has done in saving us, and is doing in making us more and more like Jesus Christ. But some hold that our faith is actually what saves us. So long as one's faith remains strong (whatever that means), one's salvation remains intact. In the minds of some, Jesus only kick-starts salvation; he gets it going for us, but we have to keep it going. Salvation is, then, a partnership, really; our spiritual regeneration is our doing as much as Christ's, in the end. In other words, Jesus has a co-Savior in each one of those who are saved.
To my mind, this is deeply blasphemous stuff. The Bible is crystal clear about how destitute of what was necessary to save ourselves we all were and how, without God, we can only continue to be so after our salvation. Christ is himself the believer's spiritual Life (Colossians 3:4); given what Scripture indicates, it is impossible such life could be located in anything within the believer's own natural capacities. Nonetheless, some want to intrude upon what God did for Man through Christ; they want to elevate themselves such that they can fulfill, or contribute to, or maintain, what only divine perfection and infiniteness could accomplish; they don't want to humble themselves under the truth of their deep impotence and foulness, but defy this reality by way of pious self-effort.
The many proof-texts to which these blasphemous "co-Saviors" refer in support of their blasphemy, aren't, by-and-large warning of lost salvation, but of failing to be saved at all, or of lost fellowship with God. The born-again person who ceases to believe God, to trust in His promises and to count on the truth of who He says they are in Christ, doesn't lose a salvation they had no part in achieving, but is cut-off from the joy, peace and grace of fellowship with God. It is to this fellowship that God's salvation of us is aimed; He wants more than merely to adopt us; His desire is for intimate, daily, direct communion with us. (1 Corinthians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 13:13; 1 John 1:3) This abundant, love-filled, transformative fellowship is supposed to be the ground of, the motivation for, all Christian living. We fall away from all of what could be ours in fellowship with God when we draw back in unbelief from the "exceeding great and precious promises" of God by which we are made "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:2-4); we don't, however, lose our redeemed, justified and sanctified status, our salvation, which rests entirely in Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:30).
What freedom, and joy, and peace there is in abandoning the blasphemous, fear-mongering, saved-and-lost, works-salvation ideas that some are so eager to promote! What greater, better motivation there is to be found for holy, Christ-centered living in love and grace than in fear, pride and legalism!
whats your point?
Then how is that good news? Do you not believe that God will finish what he started?
Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (ESV)