should a christian pay taxes

[jasoncran]

theres that commandment that says were are to render unto caeaser what is caeser.
but if Satan is in total control of the governments, then isnt that helping satan?

 

[Mysteryman]

theres that commandment that says were are to render unto caeaser what is caeser.
but if Satan is in total control of the governments, then isnt that helping satan?

Hi Jason

Well, we are also told to abide by the law of the land also. Even if it is rendering unto Caesar what is Caesars.

But I don't believe that satan is in total control of our govenment. Influence , yes, control, no.

 

[jasoncran]

i agree but some tend to take that to the extreme with satan being in control. satan can influence us but ultimately we have the choice to say no or yes to that sin.though the lost havent the power to resist save the h.s. hinder satan(that is another op).

 

[Pard]

Interesting idea. To counter Mysterman's point about tax being the law, I'd suggest that we should follow the law until it goes against God's Will and Law.

How do taxes come into play here? Some money from Federal taxes fund groups like Planned Parenthood, and they break God's Law about killing. There are other places our taxes go that break the Law as well.

Just pointing it out, I am not about to stop paying taxes...

 

[Caroline H]

What the government does with the tax money is out of the hands of the taxpayer, and therefore not the taxpayer's responsibility. Governments are set up and brought down according to God's will, and He is the one who will deal with them for the things they do. Jesus didn't say to give to Caesar what is Caesar's unless Caesar does something immoral with the money; he simply said to give it.

 

[Vic C.]

... Well, we are also told to abide by the law of the land also. Even if it is rendering unto Caesar what is Caesars.

But I don't believe that satan is in total control of our govenment. Influence , yes, control, no.

I tend to agree. I'm also not too worried by any adversarial influences if we stay in the word.

Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

 

[Drew]

theres that commandment that says were are to render unto caeaser what is caeser.
but if Satan is in total control of the governments, then isnt that helping satan?

While I will not provide the argument in the present post - it is lengthy - I think this "pay to Ceaser" teaching has been generally misunderstood. I suggest that Jesus is speaking "satirically" and is really saying "Ceasar is a blasphemous parody of the real King - God." So effectively Jesus is calling for a revolution and usesthe statement "pay Ceasar what he is due" as a carefully coded statement that he is to be removed from his claimed position of being lord of the world (that is what Ceasars did claim, by the way).

Having said this, I still think that Jesus wants us to pay our taxes. As per Romans 13, God prefers order to chaos and human governments are, in a sense, ordained by God.

In any event, taxes are fundamentally good and necessary. Any reasonably sane and compassionate society will pool its resources to support things like roads, police, hospitals, medical research, welfare, etc., etc.

I cannot imagine how any argument could be made that we are not to participate in the paying of taxes. Now perhaps if the government used the money to commit genocide or do something of the like, then that would be a different story.

 

[Pard]

theres that commandment that says were are to render unto caeaser what is caeser.
but if Satan is in total control of the governments, then isnt that helping satan?

While I will not provide the argument in the present post - it is lengthy - I think this "pay to Ceaser" teaching has been generally misunderstood. I suggest that Jesus is speaking "satirically" and is really saying "Ceasar is a blasphemous parody of the real King - God." So effectively Jesus is calling for a revolution and usesthe statement "pay Ceasar what he is due" as a carefully coded statement that he is to be removed from his claimed position of being lord of the world (that is what Ceasars did claim, by the way).

Hmm interesting...

 

[Drew]

theres that commandment that says were are to render unto caeaser what is caeser.
but if Satan is in total control of the governments, then isnt that helping satan?

While I will not provide the argument in the present post - it is lengthy - I think this "pay to Ceaser" teaching has been generally misunderstood. I suggest that Jesus is speaking "satirically" and is really saying "Ceasar is a blasphemous parody of the real King - God." So effectively Jesus is calling for a revolution and usesthe statement "pay Ceasar what he is due" as a carefully coded statement that he is to be removed from his claimed position of being lord of the world (that is what Ceasars did claim, by the way).

Hmm interesting...

Well, since perhaps there is some interest, here is the argument, which I have shamelessy co-opted from English theologian and New Testament scholar, NT Wright:

Show Me the coin used for the poll-tax." And they brought Him a denarius. 20And He said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" 21They said to Him, "Caesar's." Then He said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's.â€

Now this is a cryptic statement whose meaning is not obvious. For some reason, it has been taken to mean that the world is split into two spheres, one in which God rules and the other in which secular human governments rule. However, this is not what Jesus is trying to tell us. And if it was, then Paul would be contradicting Jesus when, in Romans 1, Paul announces the “gospel†of Jesus Christ.

Of what relevance is Romans 1? Well, in Paul’s world the term “gospel†was frequently used to denote the news that a new emperor has ascended to the throne in Rome. So when Paul uses this same term to refer to Jesus, his point could not be more clear – Jesus supplants Caesar as lord of this present world.

Back to the account of the coin. Just as it is important to know something about what the term “gospel†meant in that time and place, it is also important to know the echoes that Jesus might be eliciting when He makes his coin pronouncement.

The double command Jesus makes (give x to Ceasar and y to God) can be argued to draw on material found in 1 Maccabees 2.68. In that text, Mattathias is telling his sons, especially Judas, to get ready for revolution. ‘Pay back to the Gentiles what is due to them,’ he says, ‘and keep the law’s commands’. And clearly, “paying back†the Gentiles was not meant to refer to money. Instead, it is a subtle suggestion that the Gentiles are about to be overthrown. And I suggest that Jesus is making a cryptic allusion to this account to make a similar point.

So while Jesus is, on the surface, saying “pay the taxâ€, His more fundamental point is that Caesar’s regime is a blasphemous nonsense and that one day God would overthrow it.

Jesus’ teaching about the Roman coin, understood in it context, is not advocating a separation between the spheres of Caesar and God, with secular human governments ruling in one domain and God in the other. Given the overall context of Jesus’ life and ministry – entailing the revolutionary announcement that the Kingdom of God has already broken into history – and given the arguable allusion to 1 Maccabees, Jesus is probably saying, albeit cryptically, that God’s dominion extends to all spheres. One can almost see Jesus wryly smiling as he says “give Ceasar the things that are His†– suggesting that there really is nothing that falls into that category.

I do not think I am reaching when I suggest that when Jesus holds up the coin and inquires about the image and the inscription, He knows the Jews will be reminded of the graven image to Caesar that it contains. Any Jew familiar with the Torah should have rightly bristled at such blasphemy. And remember, the emperor in Rome did indeed set himself up as a god. Jesus is being very shrewd here. The holding up of the coin and the question about its image constitutes a critique of the blasphemy that it expresses. And so Jesus’ clever answer is effectively this: “Pay the tax, but remember who is the real Lord, the one who says ‘You shall have no other gods before me’â€.

Now that I have attempted to give an account of what this teaching is really all about. To be fair, those who think it advocates a church-state separation need to actually make a case for that position – they should not simply claim that meaning, as though it were self-evident. The teaching is indeed cryptic and the instruction to “give Ceasar what is Hisâ€, aside from the obvious superficial instruction to pay the tax, is highly open-ended as to what it is that we actually owe to Ceasar

 

[jasoncran]

drew, i am not advocating a state of christianity with my comment, though this is what i am saying, that we christian can and should impact the world in all arenas with our christian worldview, slight difference.

as well yourself hates war, and i have no love for it, but sometimes those that have the ability to help the weak in defence from evil, ought to and should

ie the ww2
the balkan intervention by the u.s, and nato and others.

but when we christian form a state and mandatory only laws like us, that involves some ignoring the coruption of power can be. and history has shown that.

 

[Danus]

theres that commandment that says were are to render unto caeaser what is caeser.
but if Satan is in total control of the governments, then isnt that helping satan?

I don't think satin controls the government, but he does run the IRS.

 

[Pard]

Ya, this is what I have always thought. A church-state separation is a contemporary idea instilled in our government around the turn of the 1900s and in the church a little over 20 years later. I'd have to agree with you completely on your view.

Especially when we consider that to argue for a church-state separation clearly contradicts the belief that the Lord is with us at all times, regardless of where we are and what we are doing.

1 O LORD, you have searched me
and you know me.

2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.

3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.

4 Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O LORD.

5 You hem me in—behind and before;
you have laid your hand upon me.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.

7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?

8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, [a] you are there.

9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,

10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.

11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,"

12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.

 

[jasoncran]

pard, hes talking about this.

i will use my church denomation as an example to show it.

the official state of Florida church, the church of God of cleveland tenessee, and all others are illegal.

that is close to what he is saying,and i added the history of american way of doing that.

 

[jasoncran]

theres that commandment that says were are to render unto caeaser what is caeser.
but if Satan is in total control of the governments, then isnt that helping satan?

I don't think satin controls the government, but he does run the IRS.

i have a friend who is saved and works as irs agent, he arrests those who are failing to pay their taxes. its ironic all of them are tea partiers.

 

[Pard]

but when we christian form a state and mandatory only laws like us, that involves some ignoring the coruption of power can be. and history has shown that.

I'd argue we live in a country that has the Law. Do not want to go into detail here, however the main point against my statement would be that there are people who are not Christian. I'd have to say that God allows people to not be Christian. If He wanted He could make everyone a Christian, but He doesn't, so why should we?

 

[jasoncran]

but when we christian form a state and mandatory only laws like us, that involves some ignoring the coruption of power can be. and history has shown that.

I'd argue we live in a country that has the Law. Do not want to go into detail here, however the main point against my statement would be that there are people who are not Christian. I'd have to say that God allows people to not be Christian. If He wanted He could make everyone a Christian, but He doesn't, so why should we?

but look at the failings of the papal states and the christains states and persecutions, ie irish oppresion of the peoples . the irish came here from the catholic suppresion. i am of one the those on my mom side(i am half-irish and jew for the most part.)

 

[Danus]

i have a friend who is saved and works as irs agent, he arrests those who are failing to pay their taxes. its ironic all of them are tea partiers.

I'm sure your right. I do tell some of my hard-core Rep friends that if they want a country with no government ...try Somalia...that's total freedom and survival of the fittest and no taxes...unless of course you collect them.

 

[jasoncran]

i have a friend who is saved and works as irs agent, he arrests those who are failing to pay their taxes. its ironic all of them are tea partiers.

I'm sure your right. I do tell some of my hard-core Rep friends that if they want a country with no government ...try Somalia...that's total freedom and survival of the fittest and no taxes...unless of course you collect them.

no they aint like that just sick of the massive spending by both parties as am i.

 

[Mike]

Looking at the way the very first believers pooled their resources and established a community that saw to the needs of the whole seems ideally the way we should handle our resources, however forced taxation by the government is something different. As noted way above, many unGodly things are supported with tax dollars when the government is making fiscal decisions.

 

[jasoncran]

Looking at the way the very first believers pooled their resources and established a community that saw to the needs of the whole seems ideally the way we should handle our resources, however forced taxation by the government is something different. As noted way above, many unGodly things are supported with tax dollars when the government is making fiscal decisions.

YES, but not forced.