Should Christians Fight In Wars ?

[cloughy]

i believe everyone should fight for there country if they believe to. i am christian but believe against the commandments of not murdering. because we are murdering other people who enjoy to kill. this is a fight for equality and peace. it must be done

 

[Bazz1040]

Bazz1040 let me ask you something are you anti American or government or something ? Now I know our American government has done some really bad stuff hundreds of years, and I mean some really bad crooked stuff. But this here is not the case so why are you so bent on the American government being crooked today pertaining to this war ?.

I am anti corruption not anti American. And as the saying goes a leopard never changes its spot.....human nature never change.<O:p</O:p

 

[Lewis]

I am anti corruption not anti American. And as the saying goes a leopard never changes its spot.....human nature never change.<o>:p</o>:p

Sure there is still some corruption going on, but there are millions in the government that are not. So if we have to go to war, that is just what we have to do. Just because some is corrupted are we supposed to not protect our country ? That was a rhetorical question, I can answer that, a big fat NO. Let me ask you something would you fight in a war, an American war ?

 

[Bazz1040]

Sure there is still some corruption going on, but there are millions in the government that are not. So if we have to go to war, that is just what we have to do. Just because some is corrupted are we supposed to not protect our country ? That was a rhetorical question, I can answer that, a big fat NO. Let me ask you something would you fight in a war, an American war ?

Millions you say? One would be hard pressed to find one. You can fight to protect yours I’m a citizen of the kingdom of Heaven, so I don't need to fight.<O:p</O:p

 

[Lewis]

Millions you say? One would be hard pressed to find one. You can fight to protect yours I’m a citizen of the kingdom of Heaven, so I don't need to fight.<o>:p</o>:p

Yeah the government has millions of workers, and there are more good ones than not. And if you had to fight to protect your family are you telling me that you would not. There are many Christians who died because they would not fight back. And there are Christians who have died horrible deaths and they did the very best that they could to please God, and were Holy Ghost filled, and still died horrible deaths at the hands of some crazed lunatic who chopped of all their limbs and so forth. And God allowed it, don't tell me that He didn't because He did, because nothing gets by Him. So tell me how do you know that God will protect you ? How do you know that you don't need to fight, sometimes God lets you get your feet wet.

 

[Bazz1040]

Yeah the government has millions of workers, and there are more good ones than not. And if you had to fight to protect your family are you telling me that you would not. There are many Christians who died because they would not fight back. And there are Christians who have died horrible deaths and they did the very best that they could to please God, and were Holy Ghost filled, and still died horrible deaths at the hands of some crazed lunatic who chopped of all their limbs and so forth. And God allowed it, don't tell me that He didn't because He did, because nothing gets by Him. So tell me how do you know that God will protect you ? How do you know that you don't need to fight, sometimes God lets you get your feet wet.

God fights for me and anyone that I may be with and whom I pray for.<O:p</O:p

 

[Lewis]

About 19 or 20 years ago there was a Holy Ghost filled young man in Philly, and all he wanted to do was live for the Lord, he was around 17 or 18, and he loved God very much, and did all he could to please God in his young life. He was beaten to death with a baseball bat, on a parking lot, from no fault of his own, except he did not fight back. Are you any better than he, you could very well meet your demise as well the same way, just for a example.

 

[Bazz1040]

About 19 or 20 years ago there was a Holy Ghost filled young man in Philly, and all he wanted to do was live for the Lord, he was around 17 or 18, and he loved God very much, and did all he could to please God in his young life. He was beaten to death with a baseball bat, on a parking lot, from no fault of his own, except he did not fight back. Are you any better than he, you could very well meet your demise as well the same way, just for a example.

God's people have been stoned, sawed to death, cast to the lions and so on almost from the moment the first Church was started, and none of them ever fought back. I am confident about my protection, but if God allows me to be attacked for whatever reason, then so be it.......my salvation is secured. So no one can take that away by killing me.<O:p</O:p

 

[Lewis]

You are right all they can do is kill the body, they can't do anymore. But when I here men talking about not protecting their families if they have to fight, I have a problem with them people.

 

[Bazz1040]

You are right all they can do is kill the body, they can't do anymore. But when I here men talking about not protecting their families if they have to fight, I have a problem with them people.

One does not have to kill in order to protect their family......killing is not what comes to my mind. And defending one's family is a different thing that going to war. War is about killing the enemy. There is no room in the army to show the love of Jesus to the enemy, which we are to do…..do that and you will be in trouble by your fellow soldiers and commanding officer. A Christian cannot live a double life….living and believing one way when they are not in the army, but doing the opposite as a soldier. We are a Christian 24/7, 7 days a week and 365 days of the year.....no room left for anything else.

 

[Strangelove]

Sure there is still some corruption going on, but there are millions in the government that are not. So if we have to go to war, that is just what we have to do. Just because some is corrupted are we supposed to not protect our country ? That was a rhetorical question, I can answer that, a big fat NO. Let me ask you something would you fight in a war, an American war ?

Lewis...the millions don't have the power and don't make the decisions. The higher up you are in the pyramid the more corrupt you will be.

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad man."

- Lord Acton (1834-1902), British historian

And if they get too close to the truth they get moved around or even worse...liquidated....like John O'Neil.

 

[Adstar]

Yes if you can run, I would do the same, but you can't always run. Now for these idiots today who are putting terror into the hearts of Americans, and this might just be a warm up for what is to come, do you think we should just stand by and let these fools kill us, my own Philadelphia Airport shut down today to examine some packages. And some of you keep talking that, it is ok" let them have their way, Jesus does not want you to protect yourself kind of talk.Like I said I would not want to be in a fox hole with many of you.

You cannot shame a follower of Jesus for following His teachings. People can decide if they will live in fear or be free from it. People can either trust in God or they can trust in their own strengh. I will trust in God and be at peace.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Lewis]

No you do not have to kill but would you even fight, let me ask you this what would you do if you were drafted ? And to the other comment I am not trying to shame anyone. As a matter of fact what would all of you do if you got drafted, would you fight or go to jail, which one would you all do ?

 

[Bazz1040]

Lewis...the millions don't have the power and don't make the decisions. The higher up you are in the pyramid the more corrupt you will be.

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad man."

- Lord Acton (1834-1902), British historian

And if they get too close to the truth they get moved around or even worse...liquidated....like John O'Neil.

Correct, I for example work for the government (Health and Hospitals Corporation) but I am not in the position where I make policy that affects others. <O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p


The politicians on both sides are the ones that tend to be the most corrupted, because they are so easily bought or have secret agendas that would conflicts with their duty and obligation to the Country. As people become more self-seeking and evil(I am speaking worldwide), it is going to be very difficult for a Christian to do what God expects of him or her (especially if you work for the government as a police officer or soldier for example) and do what those that control the system want you to do…….eventually one will have to get out from it or suffer God’s punishment with them.<O:p</O:p


Revelation 18:4-6 (NKJV)
<SUP>4 </SUP>And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
<SUP>5 </SUP>For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
<SUP>6 </SUP>Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.<O:p</O:p


So this is a mild warning and a command to Christians that work for any governmental system......make sure that what they want you to does not involved doing injustice…..the killing of the innocent, the taking of people's property for no reason or falsely accusing people for example is not justifiable to God.<O:p</O:p

 

[Bazz1040]

No you do not have to kill but would you even fight, let me ask you this what would you do if you were drafted ? And to the other comment I am not trying to shame anyone. As a matter of fact what would all of you do if you got drafted, would you fight or go to jail, which one would you all do ?

For me I am over the age for a draft and on top of that I am not a citizen of this Country. But if they passed a law that required all people to serve in the army, regardless if they are a citizen or not or no matter how old they must serve, I would serve, as long as it does not involve combat. But I would no doubt speak out whenever I see injustice being committed.......they would have to fire me or lock me up, because I am not going to be silent on that matter…..they will know without a doubt where I stand, I can tell you that.<O:p</O:p

 

[Strangelove]

For me I am over the age for a draft and on top of that I am not a citizen of this Country. But if they passed a law that required all people to serve in the army, regardless if they are a citizen or not or no matter how old they must serve, I would serve, as long as it does not involve combat. But I would no doubt speak out whenever I see injustice being committed.......they would have to fire me or lock me up, because I am not going to be silent on that matter…..they will know without a doubt where I stand, I can tell you that.<O:p</O:p

Ya....like he said.

I wouldn't last long if they told us to go and invade Iran. Wouldn't it be great if millions of Christians got drafted and then got sent overseas and just refused to attack! Lolz.

It would be like the G.I. revolt in Nam.

Sir! No Sir! - The Gi Revolt

Theres better quality versions of this doco out there but they don't seem to load up.

 

[Bazz1040]

Ya....like he said.

I wouldn't last long if they told us to go and invade Iran. Wouldn't it be great if millions of Christians got drafted and then got sent overseas and just refused to attack! Lolz.

It would be like the G.I. revolt in Nam.

Sir! No Sir! - The Gi Revolt

Theres better quality versions of this doco out there but they don't seem to load up.

It sure would.

 

[Lewis]

Just an article, don't go crazy.


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] ”Wherever there have been fought wars, where pillaging, burning and bloodshed have taken place, the holy church has participated.” A. Øverland
The history of Christianity is in its most pronounced traits, a history of war, - one single long war against both outer and inner enemies. Wars fought on behalf of or under direct command of the Church, civil wars, offensive wars and wars fought against people with other views and beliefs than the official Church. The annihilation of whole peoples, like the Vandals and the Goths, the Indians in central and south America, and the slaughter of the Slavic peoples in the east, genocide of Jews and Moslems. In the eyes of the church and its historians these peoples were just criminals trapped in the dark night of paganism, and for whom the Church spared no atrocity or means too cruel to secure their conversion. Those who did not convert were killed. If not Christian, your life was not worth much. There are not many among the peoples of the world who have not felt the Christian mission drive on their bodies. The Church’s way of thinking was: if you weren’t Christian, you couldn’t be considered to be human.
For the early Christians war duty was out of the question. Even killing in self-defence was not accepted. During the Jewish uprising against the Romans in 66-70 AD, the early Christian congregation in Jerusalem fled to Pell in Perea to avoid having to fight. During the Jewish Bar Kochba uprising in 131-136 AD, the Christian Jews refused to fight, leading to harsh persecutions from Bar Kochba and his followers (Deschner 1972). This pacifist attitude was however soon to change when Christianity rose to power and became state religion in the Roman Empire in the beginning of the fourth century.

Christianity now became both political and nationalistic. Already the church council in 314 AD condemned soldiers who surrendered their colours for religious reasons. Christian soldiers who laid down their weapons were swiftly excommunicated from the Church. St. Augustin argumented that war was in good accordance with the teachings of Jesus. The words of Jesus saying that they who live by the sword also shall die by the sword, meant according to St. Augustin, only for those who shed the blood of others without the consent of the authorities. A war authorised by the authorities was just, righteous and was fought to revenge an injustice, or to suppress another nation’s unbearable cockiness. According to St. Augustin, this also was justified for assault wars. One of Pope Gregor VII’s favorite saying was “Damned be he who protect his sword from blood”. Pope Julian II’s motto was “When the key of St. Peter don’t suffice, let his sword help me!” (Deschner).

Still, it was not with a clear conscience the Christian Church proclaimed wars. One Church Council after another forbade their priests to participate in wars. Penitence was prescribed for those who had shed blood on the battlefield, and popes were often used as peace negotiators. If the holy church sometimes condemned a war, it was usually because the war was damaging the Church’s own economical or political agendas. If the Church didn’t bother much to prevent wars that didn’t damage their own interests, they surely did their part on starting wars against its adversaries. The orthodox Christian teaching implicated that any deviation from the right faith was just reason for proclaiming war. With the help of the knighthood the Church turned into a veritable military state. War was considered as a divine judgement and victory a sure sign of Gods approval. This is a view with strong support in the Bible. Around 900-1000 AD the Catholic Church was fully militarised, with its own army, navy and weapon smithies. The Church’s fighting capacity was sometimes the double of the profane warlords. Cardinals and bishops commanded whole armies in the east, west, north and south, and bloody feuds were constantly fought within the different perishes. The Church father Theodoret put it this way: ”The historic evidence teach us that war is more useful to us than peace”.
http://www.bandoli.no/warfare.htm

Continued in below post.
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[Lewis]

continued

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In medieval times the Church organised its own heavy armed religious campaigns, - the holy crusades. Pope Urban II instigated the first crusade in the end of the 11.th century. This very first crusade happened between 1096 and 1099 and mobilised a gigantic army from the whole of Europe. This huge army marched eastwards to “save” Jerusalem from the Moslems. Friday the 15.July 1099 the army attacked the holy city. The result was a complete slaughter, and according to the chronicles Gods holy soldiers massacred almost 70.000 people. “Through Gods wonderful and just judgement the crusaders waded in blood to their knees, - yes, even up to their horses saddles” the joyous and pious Raimond of Agiles tells us. And he goes on to tell us that after the slaughter the soldiers of Christ wept with joy and went to the Saviours grave to pray.
Those who fought in the crusades were guaranteed redemption for their sins, and those who died in this holy wars became martyrs automatically. The ticket to eternal salvation was secured.

The crusades were in reality nothing else than pure Roman Catholic Wars organised by the Pope. And the papal attitude was clean cut and clear: “…even when it’s only orphans, small children, widows and fugitives one was fighting against, the final victory over these diabolical people was certain.” The Christian motto of the Vendic crusade in 1147: “He who will not be baptised, shall die”.

Crusades are not something the Catholics enjoyed themselves with in medieval times, is something we also can find in modern times. The Vietnam War was declared as a crusade by the American bishops. Those same bishops also declared, in the second Vaticanum, that one should use the atomic bomb(!) against Vietnam to defend the Catholism there (Deschner 1986). Some "loving your enemies" and "turning the other cheek".
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Christianity was further nationalized through Protestantism, and made into a day worker in the political society, serving the state. The original Christianity was very ethnic specific, only for God’s chosen people, the Jews. Jesus and later St. Paul softened Christianity on this issue and changed the ethnic exclusivity with a religious one. It didn’t matter if you were a Jew or a Greek, as long as you were a “citizen in the kingdom of Jesus”. (Gal 3,28; Joh 17,21; Rom 10,12; 1 Cor 12,13; Col 3,11) The early Christianity was indifferent to national borders. From being a exclusive Jewish sect mainly preaching the gospel to other Jews, Christianity started to expand beyond the Jewish society - to the heathens. St. Paul is the guy who should be credited for this, and the changing of Christianity towards a more political and nationalistic movement is also mainly due to Paul’s workings. Paul encourage obedience to the authorities because the authorities are put there by God (Rom 13,1-5; Titus 3,1; 1 Tim 6,1; Heb 13,17; ). This view is only a logic consequence of the Christian very hierarchical teachings, with blind obedience to and faith the divine authority as the main condition for salvation. To preach something else than this, is undermining the elevated position and absolute authority of God. All leaders’ positions are dependent of authority over their subjects.

It is not correct to interpret Jesus as an early liberal hippie, as a bearded revolutionary fighter for social reforms, - and that Jesus’ teachings were a result of a acute social conscience based on equality and that all men have the same value. Though Jesus preaches that all men are equal before God in the afterlife, but in this earthly life it is a huge difference between the social classes. There are no signs of rebellion against the social order in Jesus’ teachings, or indications that ex. slavery is a diminution of human value (Mt 6,24; 18,21ff; 20,26-27; 21,33f; 22,1f; 24,45-51; Lk 16,13; ). To the contrary, Jesus tells the oppressed to turn the other cheek, to pay their tax to the rulers (Mt 17,24-27; 22,15.22;), and to love himself (as the king of the Jews) more then their parents, sons or daughters (Mt 10,35-37; 19,29;). He is sent to earth exclusively to the lost sheep of the flock of Israel (Matt 15.24) and calls other peoples for “dogs” as in the story of the Canaanite woman (Mt 10,5-6; 15,24-26). He condemns heathens and publicans as of lesser people since they don’t believe in him as the true Messiah. (Mt. 18,17; 21,31;).
http://www.bandoli.no/warfare.htm
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[Bazz1040]

Just an article, don't go crazy.


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]”Wherever there have been fought wars, where pillaging, burning and bloodshed have taken place, the holy church has participated.” A. Øverland[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The history of Christianity is in its most pronounced traits, a history of war, - one single long war against both outer and inner enemies. Wars fought on behalf of or under direct command of the Church, civil wars, offensive wars and wars fought against people with other views and beliefs than the official Church. The annihilation of whole peoples, like the Vandals and the Goths, the Indians in central and south America, and the slaughter of the Slavic peoples in the east, genocide of Jews and Moslems. In the eyes of the church and its historians these peoples were just criminals trapped in the dark night of paganism, and for whom the Church spared no atrocity or means too cruel to secure their conversion. Those who did not convert were killed. If not Christian, your life was not worth much. There are not many among the peoples of the world who have not felt the Christian mission drive on their bodies. The Church’s way of thinking was: if you weren’t Christian, you couldn’t be considered to be human. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For the early Christians war duty was out of the question. Even killing in self-defence was not accepted. During the Jewish uprising against the Romans in 66-70 AD, the early Christian congregation in Jerusalem fled to Pell in Perea to avoid having to fight. During the Jewish Bar Kochba uprising in 131-136 AD, the Christian Jews refused to fight, leading to harsh persecutions from Bar Kochba and his followers (Deschner 1972). This pacifist attitude was however soon to change when Christianity rose to power and became state religion in the Roman Empire in the beginning of the fourth century. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Christianity now became both political and nationalistic. Already the church council in 314 AD condemned soldiers who surrendered their colours for religious reasons. Christian soldiers who laid down their weapons were swiftly excommunicated from the Church. St. Augustin argumented that war was in good accordance with the teachings of Jesus. The words of Jesus saying that they who live by the sword also shall die by the sword, meant according to St. Augustin, only for those who shed the blood of others without the consent of the authorities. A war authorised by the authorities was just, righteous and was fought to revenge an injustice, or to suppress another nation’s unbearable cockiness. According to St. Augustin, this also was justified for assault wars. One of Pope Gregor VII’s favorite saying was “Damned be he who protect his sword from blood”. Pope Julian II’s motto was “When the key of St. Peter don’t suffice, let his sword help me!” (Deschner). [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Still, it was not with a clear conscience the Christian Church proclaimed wars. One Church Council after another forbade their priests to participate in wars. Penitence was prescribed for those who had shed blood on the battlefield, and popes were often used as peace negotiators. If the holy church sometimes condemned a war, it was usually because the war was damaging the Church’s own economical or political agendas. If the Church didn’t bother much to prevent wars that didn’t damage their own interests, they surely did their part on starting wars against its adversaries. The orthodox Christian teaching implicated that any deviation from the right faith was just reason for proclaiming war. With the help of the knighthood the Church turned into a veritable military state. War was considered as a divine judgement and victory a sure sign of Gods approval. This is a view with strong support in the Bible. Around 900-1000 AD the Catholic Church was fully militarised, with its own army, navy and weapon smithies. The Church’s fighting capacity was sometimes the double of the profane warlords. Cardinals and bishops commanded whole armies in the east, west, north and south, and bloody feuds were constantly fought within the different perishes. The Church father Theodoret put it this way: ”The historic evidence teach us that war is more useful to us than peace”. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Chrsitianity and War[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Continued in below post.[/FONT]

Jesus told us the Bible that there would be false Christians among His people.....they would be like tares among the wheat. But Jesus said by ones fruit we will know what a person is.
<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Satan knows he that cannot destroy the Church so what he does is create a counterfeit Church or Christians, and make Christianity the State religion. They are like wolves in sheep clothing. They twist the words of Jesus, just as Satan did when he tried to get Jesus to sin, by telling Jesus to jump off the mountain, that God would protect Him.<O:p</O:p