Should Christians pull guns on intruders?

[GojuBrian]

It might help if you actualy engage in the conversation instead of just pulling scripture out of context to back your position...I'm just sayin'...... :P

 

[Drew]

Of course you shoot an intruder. Shoot first ask questions later.......

just kidding.

This is a difficult question. I think I would resist an intruder who was attacking me and family, but I would never own a gun. Arguments that this will "reduce chance of success" do not really work since the data shows that having a gun in the house actuallly increases risk of being injured or killed.

Owning a gun is simply going too far into buying into the world's mode of doing power - through the projection of violent force.

It should be emphasized that many many wester free nations have entirely unarmed citizenry and we get along quite nicely, with less bloodshed than in the US.

 

[GojuBrian]

when I smoked, cigarettes were .55 a pack. now that they cost $55.00 per carton, it makes sense that there's a three day waiting period to buy a gun!

no but all joking aside, I believe in protecting life and limb.

I bought a new gun today, it took almost fifteen minutes and I was out the door....with ammunition. I live in a free state.

:D

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

anyone who is anti pulling gun on intruders yet pro-cop look why the 2nd amnedment was in place and then look up the posse-commidutus act of 1836. in early american history there was no law enforcement only the militias or the constables, law enforcement came later in ny first. so how was the law enforced back then in the wild west or florida.. with a gun..

the first gun control attempt was by wyat earp at tombstone, but he was deputized then, after the civil war

jason

in all of this where is the word of God? It is easy to live by what we want to call " common sence" but where are we as beleivers ever called to be common or to think common? Did Jesus think common? We are to have the mind of Christ. The real issue here is faith and knowing the promises of God. The reason why everyone comes up with " what if" situations and uses them for justifications to not listen to the word of God on these issues is that they do not apply faith in God and His power to save, redeem, deliver, and protect us. We have been given the general idea that God is not very involved in our lives, that it is possible for " chance" to happen to us that God is not in control of, or not aware of. This tears down our faith and makes it impossible for us to comprehend obeying the word of God by faith. We are told not to resist the evil man- we are told to give place to wrath(not our own)- we are told not to avenge ourselves, not to fight with sword etc... We are told not to try to save our own lives. It is easy to say well only in this situation but tnot that one but the word of God does not make those differnces.We are to be dead and it is Christ who lives in us. We do not belong to ourselves nor does anyone else so why are we trying to save ourselves or others by our own flesh and by violence. Our God is faithful to hear when we call and He does not have to take the time a cop does to come.Our God is mighty to save!He knows what we will ask before we ask it. If we believe that it is CHrist that lives, and that In Him is where our life is hid then we will believe that none can take our life out of the control of Gods hand.We will know that if we need deliverance HE will come if we call HIM. And that is assuming that He allowed someone to get as far as to come in against us.We need not strive against the word of God, but put more of it in us so that our faith to walk after Him in the Spirit will be increased.

Our God is not himself a pacafist that is true- He is an avenger, a man of war He will recompence His enemies. BUT HE calls us to trust HIM to do that for now, He calls us to only war with spiritual weapons and to do good and love all men even our enemies event hose who seek to harm us and there will be a day when WE will judge the world but that will not be until our obedience is full- THEN we will do so with the weapons of the spirit now with physical swords or guns.

2Cr 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

it should call our attention when our answer to such things is not in scripture but in our own reasonings

 

[Drew]

I bought a new gun today, it took almost fifteen minutes and I was out the door....with ammunition. I live in a free state.

And, of course, many of us live in equally free nations and yet without the scourge of guns and all the misery, heartache, and grief they cause.

 

[GojuBrian]

I bought a new gun today, it took almost fifteen minutes and I was out the door....with ammunition. I live in a free state.

And, of course, many of us live in equally free nations and yet without the scourge of guns and all the misery, heartache, and grief they cause.

At what on the assembly line does the inanimate object become evil and able to cause anything by themselves?

 

[GojuBrian]

Guns have caused me fun, recreation, family togetherness, protection, etc... EVIL!!! :rolling

 

[jasoncran]

I bought a new gun today, it took almost fifteen minutes and I was out the door....with ammunition. I live in a free state.

And, of course, many of us live in equally free nations and yet without the scourge of guns and all the misery, heartache, and grief they cause.

At what on the assembly line does the inanimate object become evil and able to cause anything by themselves?

guns jump and get possesed by the devil dont ya know that brian, such evil things, we should ban them and knives, oh wait i forgot mma,bjj judo. those hands they are evil too, but the libs no they wouldnt, couldnt

 

[GojuBrian]

They can be used for evil when in the wrong hands. The wrong hands are the problem, not the guns. Common sense really.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

As christians are we given our rights by our countries or by our God? If our country gives us a " right" that our God does not, do we have that "right?" Of course not, the country has a "right" to have abortion but we as christians belong not to this country- we are sojourners in this land and the kingdom we are of does not give us that right. The world does not have the same standards by our God as we do, they are used by Him as vessels of dishonor, even unto our good. They are also sometimes used as vessels of honour for our good but we are not called to live as they and they are not called to live as we do.- Jesus did not tell the centurion to stop being one- He also didnt tell him not to commit adultary- he also didnt tell him not to worship an idol- he didnt tell him to go forgive his mother. Just because Jesus did not say everything to one person in a given situation(that had nothing to do by the way with fighting or defending) does not mean it does not apply to that person and everyone else. We are given so many numerous scriptures as to how to treat ALL other people, and ALL enemies. We could likewise say well the church at corinth wasnt told directly by Jesus to turn the other cheek so that proves we dont have to- we clearly do not accept those sort of arguements but we beleive the whole word of God added together. if we can seek God and believe His word then in Him will our trust and protection be. We are told that cursed is he that trusts in man and makes the flesh is arm, but he who trusts in God and has his hope in Him is blessed. Is Gods arm shortened that He cannot protect us or deliever us over to death ? That he cannot protect our familes that belong to Him truly? That He cannot hear the cries of His people and answer on time? Because really that is what is being said here, that we cannot trust God to help us, we cannot use Him as our weapon of protection, that we cannot trust Him so we can go ahead and do it ourselves, take matters into our own hands. That we can seek to save by our flesh what doesnt even belong to us.




Jesus says he who lives by the sword dies by the sword. doesnt matter if the hands of the sword were good or evil-

Here is another point-as christians our job is to build the temple of God.We are not only to build ourselves up and cleanse ourselves from all defilement being the temple of God but we are to be witnesses in this world to others for them to be saved and become the temple of God.- The reason why king david could not build the temple of God for God to dwell in was because of the blood on His hands and david was a righteous man but He was not fit to build a temple for God to dwell in. So God had to make things peaceful in the time of solomon so the temple could be built. If we defile ourselves with blood for any reason then we also will not be fit to build the temple of God and this is a christians whole duty in Christ is to being the kingdom and the gospel to everyone and be a living epistle a living witness(martyr)for him.

 

[GojuBrian]

Jesus says he who lives by the sword dies by the sword. doesnt matter if the hands of the sword were good or evil-

What? Do you think I go around getting into gun fights or doing drive by's just because I have guns?

I'm not living by the sword (gun), I'm living with it.

http://www.christiangunowner.com/

http://www.christiangunowners.org/

http://www.christiangunowners.net/

Law enforcement cannot be christians? Military? Come on now, that's just :crazy

 

[jasoncran]

They can be used for evil when in the wrong hands. The wrong hands are the problem, not the guns. Common sense really.

i know that brian, i was stating leftie logic, godspromise what about the romans 13 verse, doesnt that much that the sword of the government(minister of god) is for the containg of evil, so if the government is ordained by god to do the containing of evil, is it evil for the person to be a cop or military when god says that are his ministers for containg evil? they dont carry the sword in vain, now do they.

jason

 

[GojuBrian]

We are in agreement jason and my replies like that aren't directed at you buddy.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

goji- if you pick that gun up against another person that is called living by it and the word declares you will die by it. Jesus said that to peter who used his sword against a person to defend the Lord- Now if you are a believer you are the Lords body not your own and if peter couldnt defend jesus, nor can you.


jason- yes governments are Gods ministers and they do not bare the sword in vain. That is what God ordains them too, that does not have anything to do with what we as christians are called to. God ordains ALL governments, and masters, and people over us. That does not mean we are called to be them. Assyria was a govenment ordained by God also, God called them His rod and He used them to chasten His own people. Same with babylon and egypt and rome and media persia etc..

ALL vessels belong to God, both good and evil for every purpose under heaven each for its own use. But you do not use the silver cup to dig in the garden and you dont use the hoe to eat your salad. We are responsible to walk as God called US to, not to say see God uses those other people too and then try to be like them instead of doing our jobs. That would be like a woman saying well God uses men to be apostles i want to be one too, or a christian saying God used that person to imprison His unfaithful children so i wanna do that too. We are all responsible to be christians and to walk in the kingdom of God and live by the laws of His kingdom by faith and in the Spirit of God- the Spirit of God is not going to tell a person or lead a person to kill or wound another person. If we are out of our proper order then we are in the flesh even if God uses others outside of His kingdom for a purpose does not mean He desires to use us for that purpose.

 

[GojuBrian]

goji- if you pick that gun up against another person that is called living by it and the word declares you will die by it. Jesus said that to peter who used his sword against a person to defend the Lord- Now if you are a believer you are the Lords body not your own and if peter couldnt defend jesus, nor can you.

It's Goju, as in the evil martial art of kicking people's butt,lol. Not really, it's self defense or the defense of others which is more important to me.

By your interpretation all law enforcement and military will die by the gun...that's just distorted interpretation an plain WRONG.

Jesus had a purpose to fulfill. He didn't want Peter or anyone else to get in the way of that.

We are to love one another, how can we show love if we just sit there and do nothing against evil? If it weren't for our military and law enforcement (I'm a 9yr veteran) YOU would not even be able to sit there and type your distorted interpretations of the bible's text. If it weren't for guns you wouldn't even be allowed to have your opinions. Ever consider that?

 

[jasoncran]

to clarify this then should a christian in your opinion be a cop or servicemember.

think about this most cops have an oppurtunity in jail to witness at times, a rule of thumb when dealing with the criminals, if you treat like crap for no reason they will return the favor, but if you treat them fairly the will respond in kind, of course they are execptions

i as a guard soldier has been in war and served some duties during the hurricanes wilma, dennis

ensuring people have basic needs and protection isnt evil but good who knows the oppurtunity to witness there.

why do people think that cops and soldiers kill everyday. esp cops most days are boring, and montenous.

jason

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

goji- if you pick that gun up against another person that is called living by it and the word declares you will die by it. Jesus said that to peter who used his sword against a person to defend the Lord- Now if you are a believer you are the Lords body not your own and if peter couldnt defend jesus, nor can you.

It's Goju, as in the evil martial art of kicking people's butt,lol. Not really, it's self defense or the defense of others which is more important to me.

By your interpretation all law enforcement and military will die by the gun...that's just distorted interpretation an plain WRONG.

Jesus had a purpose to fulfill. He didn't want Peter or anyone else to get in the way of that.

We are to love one another, how can we show love if we just sit there and do nothing against evil? If it weren't for our military and law enforcement (I'm a 9yr veteran) YOU would not even be able to sit there and type your distorted interpretations of the bible's text. If it weren't for guns you wouldn't even be allowed to have your opinions. Ever consider that?

i apoligize for the name misspelling. i figured it must be that new berry lol goji . Yes Jesus had a purpose which is to die for us- and He has a purpose in us too for us to die to self and trust only him.- I did not say sit by and do nothing- I said fill yourself with the word of God so that you have faith and when need by call out to God to protect you or your family and trust that your life and those of those you love are not your own but His and that He is in control and that He is faithful to hear our prayers and cries and to answer, save, deliver, protect us unless He has chosen that day to be our last. Our lives are in Him.


The whole arguement that we wouldnt have the freedoms etc.. without all that doesnt have anything to do with the word of God. God will have His will done in any nation on the planet using those who are not in His kingdom. God uses all things for OUR good. But we are not called to do all things. God uses the good and the evil there is no vessel not for His purpose and use that does not mean we will not answer to Him if we do our own will instead of His. If i tell my daughter to do something and the neighbor kid does it for her she will be in trouble and if i tell the neighbor kid to do something and my daughter does it for them she will be in trouble.- Whenever worldly agruements tlike this get brought up it shows that the focus here is not where it should be on Gods word. Our lives should be to seek first the kingdom of God.Not to seek first the country we sojourn in or anything else.If anything calls us to walk outside of what God has called us to and commanded us to and teaches us is good then that thing must be put aside for Him. We cannot ignore His word and his will for US and say well if i dont do it no one will have the right to type on a computer. God will use those who are not going to inherit eternal life for the things that are outside of what He calls His sons and daughters to and we are to live our lives trusting Him.We are told to RESIST NOT EVIL. NOW if that was not what Jesus thought was loving He would not tell us to do it but instead we are to make our requests known to God, we are to ask and He promises to answer.- If you believe God at his word then what need do we have to go against His word to save ourselves or others, and how can anything we do be loving if it causes us to disobey God to accomplish it.-

 

[Drew]

I bought a new gun today, it took almost fifteen minutes and I was out the door....with ammunition. I live in a free state.

And, of course, many of us live in equally free nations and yet without the scourge of guns and all the misery, heartache, and grief they cause.

At what on the assembly line does the inanimate object become evil and able to cause anything by themselves?

This is simply not a valid argument. We have been through this over and over again. Here it is again (below). Now let's be clear - this argument is rock-solid and completely undermines this incorrect line of argument you keep advancing.

There is simply no doubt - this idea that guns are not a problem because they are inanimate is simply wrong. You may not like it, but it is wrong. The question is not whether the argument you put forward is right or wrong - it is clearly wrong. Instead the real question is this: Since you clearly have the ability to see that it is wrong, why do you keep making an argument which you must know is incorrect?

One more time:

The argument that "guns don't kill people, people kill people" has all the hallmarks of effective propaganda. It contains an obvious truth - guns in and of themselves can not kill anyone since someone has to pull the trigger. But, like all propaganda, it really does not hold up to careful scrutiny and analysis. And since most people are unwilling to think things through, this kind of slogan is indeed very effective.

The error in this reasoning is the error of thinking that all the properties of a multi-component "system" - in this case the "system" of "gun+person" - must be attributable to one (or more) of the components. But this is obviously not correct in the general case.

Consider two chemicals: A and B. Independently, they are harmless. But when brought together, they produce a violent explosion. The property of "being dangerous" is a property of the system - neither A nor B is dangerous, but the combination of them is.

Now lets look at the system constituted by person+gun. Without a gun, a person is relatively powerless to kill. And, of course, a gun by itself cannot kill. But bring them together and they form a "system" that is indeed quite dangerous.

So it is demonstrably incorrect that guns are not "bad" simply because they, in and of themselves, do not possess "intention". They are an ingredient that leads to a dangerous situation.

1. Without a gun, a person with intent is relatively powerless to kill (that is, relative to the person without a gun).
2. Without a person to pull its trigger, a gun is totally powerless to kill
3. Put them together and we have a system both intent and means;
4. Deny the person the means (i.e. the gun), and there is greatly reduced danger.

WIthin this framework, controlling guns indeed does "solve" the problem by eliminating the potential to create the dangerous "gun+man" system. So the fact that the gun is animate is demonstrably not a valid against against the control of guns.

 

[JoJo]

Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Rom. 12:17 and Rom. 12:19 seem to be speaking about getting revenge. But there is a difference between getting revenge and protecting yourself. Revenge involves plotting to get even, to pay back, to even the score, to harm because you have been harmed. Self-defense is an emergency means of using force, if necessary, to protect yourself or others from being harmed or killed. It is not with evil intent, as revenge can be.

Rom. 12:18 seems to admit that it is not always possible to live peaceably with all men.

As for John 18:36, I believe an important point of this verse was to stress the fact that Jesus' kingdom was not an earthly kingdom. That if it were, His servants would fight to protect Him. Not that He was speaking against fighting to protect in general, but that He was speaking against fighting to protect Him. If his servants had fought to protect Him, He would not have been killed and there would have been no cross.

Of course, these are just my own interpretations.

 

[JoJo]

1. Without a gun, a person with intent is relatively powerless to kill (that is, relative to the person without a gun).
2. Without a person to pull its trigger, a gun is totally powerless to kill
3. Put them together and we have a system both intent and means;
4. Deny the person the means (i.e. the gun), and there is greatly reduced danger.

WIthin this framework, controlling guns indeed does "solve" the problem by eliminating the potential to create the dangerous "gun+man" system. So the fact that the gun is animate is demonstrably not a valid against against the control of guns.

Okay, but you better take away their kitchen knives, scissors and heavy objects.

Would-be killers aren't going to let the absence of a gun stop them from attempting to kill. When I was a detention officer at our county jail, we had a wall of weapons that had been confiscated. There were plenty of toothbrush shanks and the like. The most amazing weapon was the toilet paper rope, twisted so tightly together that no amount of pulling could tear it (we all tried). The toilet paper rope had been used in an attempt to jump a guard from behind.