Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Should Christians rethink Hell?
- Thread starter TimothyW
- Start date
Obadiah
Member
So sorry to hear that. I can understand the shock it must be. Tracy and you are in my prayers today as well.
Butch5
Member
No problem. My prayers go out to the family.
I said this:
"Uh, really? How about this: think of someone you know who has died. They are "no more; though you look for them, they will not be found". See? That verse has NOTHING to do with ceasing to exist.
Also, the phrase "a little while" should have been a clue. The lake of fire occurs far into the future from the perspective of the Psalmist."
"Uh, really? How about this: think of someone you know who has died. They are "no more; though you look for them, they will not be found". See? That verse has NOTHING to do with ceasing to exist.
Also, the phrase "a little while" should have been a clue. The lake of fire occurs far into the future from the perspective of the Psalmist."
I don't see any relevance between my comment and your response. The verse you quoted is in the context of Genesis 1; creation.
Which I explained clearly. Again, there are no verses that say or indicate that souls will cease to exist.
Again, the phrase "be no more" refers to their physical life, not their eternal souls.
Bingo!!
TimothyW
Member
(Edited, A&T guidelines: "Once you have made a point, refrain from flooding the forum with numerous posts making the same point over and over with nothing new to support it.")
No, the verse I quoted was Psalm 37:10
You say that you don't see any relevance between your comment "the phrase in a little while should have been a clue" (Edited, ToS 2.14) and my response "But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day".
It's unfortunate that you do not see the relevance the same way I do, since "in a little while" may refer to a day, or a thousand years when the phrase is used in the Bible, since "with the Lord one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day".
(Edited, ToS 2,4, rudeness. Obadiah)
Last edited by a moderator:
TimothyW
Member
How so? Does the Annihilated person become unannihilated at some time and therefore needs no salvation???
(Edited, ToS 2.4, rudeness. Obadiah)
Last edited by a moderator:
(Removed. Response to deleted post. Obadiah)
(Removed, response to a deleted portion of a post. Obadiah)
First, that phrase I noted IS a clue,(Removed, response to deleted portion of a post). I figured you missed that clue. Second, context is everything, and your putting 2 Pet 3 in wih Psa 37:10 is out of context completely.
I don't share your opinion. I look at context every time.
(Removed, response to a deleted portion of a post. Obadiah)
Last edited by a moderator:
First, there are no verses about anyone being annihilated. So your question is moot.
The point is that if one simply ceases to exist consciously, then there really is no need of salvation. Ceasing to exist means no torment, no punishment, etc.
The idea of ceasing to exist is exactly what all atheists believe, which is why it is so difficult for them to come to faith.
I still don't understand why the phrase "eternal punishment" can be applied to your idea of ceasing to exist, because the word "eternal" conveys on-going, certainly not ceasing to exist.
There is no way the phrase "eternal punishment" can be applied to your idea of ceasing to exist. But since you think so, please explain how ceasing to exist can be "eternal". I don't see it.
Obadiah
Member
Thread is re-opened. Please keep in mind and follow the A&T guidelines, including #4 which is highlighted:
- Original posts should reference specific scripture and what it is the member wants to say or ask about that scripture.
- Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding.
- Opinions are plenty and have little value so please do not state positions that have no basis in scripture.
- Do not use phrases such as, “You’re wrong.” This is insulting and inappropriate and there are nicer ways to disagree without being insulting.
- Once you have made a point, refrain from flooding the forum with numerous posts making the same point over and over with nothing new to support it.
- You may ask a member questions as to what they believe on certain topics relative to the subject of the thread, but please keep in mind the member is under no obligation to answer.
- Failing to answer someone’s question doesn’t necessarily amount to an admission of error or surrender but keep in mind that in any debate if you refuse to or can not answer a reasonable question, it may weaken your position.
TimothyW
Member
Answering the first objection:
There are many verses that directly say that the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more. That is what annihilated means. But notice that "annihilated" is your word, not mine. I merely believe what the Bible says. Psalm 37:38, Sinners will be destroyed, Psalm 37:20 the wicked will perish.
I wholeheartedly disagree that that if a person is to be completely destroyed, they have no need of salvation. On the contrary, they have great need of salvation. If they are not saved, they will be destroyed. What greater need could there be?
Concerning your third objection, so what if atheists also believe that the wicked will also cease to exist? Does that make the Bible true or false? Do they believe that there is only eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord?
Concerning your fourth objection, being destroyed is eternal punishment because it lasts forever. The destroyed person does not stop being destroyed at some point, they do not "heal up" from being destroyed. It is not a temporary destruction, it is permanent. It is eternal.
TimothyW
Member
If this is true, then the doctrine of eternal conscious torment or torture in hell also eliminates the need for salvation.
If a person who will be destroyed if they are not saved doesn't need salvation, then a person who will be merely tortured doesn't need salvation either.
No, not "many". Seems you've obsessed with Psa 37:10.
And neither verse says anything about ceasing to exist. your words. Have you ever passed by a auto junk yard? What did you see? Many cars that were "destroyed". Yet, they were still there. Destroyed but existing.
I think you're still missing the point. If one ceases to exist consciously, then there is NO concept of punishment. How can one experience "eternal punishment" if they don't exist? That is impossible. Yet, Matt 25:46 says there will be eternal punishment.
For anything to be "eternal" refutes your idea of ceasing to exist.
Question 1: "so what"??? That is WHY atheists aren't interesting in God. They have nothing to fear. They think they will simply cease to exist. There is no punishment or torment if one simply ceases to exist. That's the "so what".
Question 2: Of course what atheists think has no relevance to the truth of Scripture.
Question 3: No, they don't believe in God or that Jesus was God. And they reject any idea of eternal life.
Nope. If one ceases to exist, there is no experience of forever. They don't exist so there is no possibility of punishment. I'm just amazed that you aren't seeing this point.
Would you spank someone who deserved it if they were in a coma? Please answer.
This is quite confused. Seems you treat destruction as an on-going process, yet you also believe unbelievers will cease to exist.
So, how can one cease to exist if their destruction "does not stop"? That is impossible.
Here's reality: if one ceases to exist, at that very moment, everything stops for them.
Are you aware that the concept of punishment REQUIRES consciousness? And Matt 25:46 speaks of eternal punishment. ECT is Biblical.
What do you mean by "merely" tortured? The FACT of conscious torment is the primary reason for salvation. To be saved from eternal punishment.
The MAIN reason Jesus died on the cross was to provide deliverance (salvation) from the lake of fire. He didn't die to fulfill the preaching of the prosperity preachers. He died to save us from the lake of fire. Which is eternal punishment, which requires consciousness.
Both Matt 25:46 and Rev 20:10 speak of the same thing: eternal punishment and tormenting night and day forever and ever. That's the experience in the "second death" or the lake of fire.
TimothyW
Member
FreeGrace, I'm confident that you can figure this out by reading the Bible prayerfully and thoughtfully.
(Just one comment, "merely tortured" means tortured but not destroyed. If a person who would otherwise be destroyed doesn't need salvation, then a person who will not be destroyed but will instead be tortured also wouldn't need salvation. Obviously is it worse to be destroyed than it is to be tortured.)
(Just one comment, "merely tortured" means tortured but not destroyed. If a person who would otherwise be destroyed doesn't need salvation, then a person who will not be destroyed but will instead be tortured also wouldn't need salvation. Obviously is it worse to be destroyed than it is to be tortured.)