FreeGrace, Though we disagree on the final fate (the final/eternal punishment) of the wicked in Hell (that is their destruction versus their torment), I once thought like you have expressed here in your post. In addition, the beliefs you’ve expressed in this post reflect the beliefs that Dr. Mohler expressed within the debate that is this OP’s discussion.
I respect the way you’ve laid out your beliefs here as a summary of your key beliefs (so-to-speak) about why it is that the lost’s final fate in Hell is an existence of everlasting torture/torment. I recognize it because that’s what I thought (and was taught as well), for decades. Though now, I cannot find any Biblical support it. Thus I’m asking for your Biblical support within the two areas that I disagree with. I also respect your high view of Scripture, as well, from other topics which is why I ask you.
Belief 1, that I disagree with:
I believe that all souls are immortal.
I disagree. Here’s why:
Proverbs 12:28 (NIV) In the way of righteousness there is life; along that path is immortality.
Matt 10:28 (LEB) And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
[There is a proverb that states that there is a righteous path that leads to immortality (i.e. we must be guided onto a righteous path that leads to immortality). We don’t posses immortality at our birth no matter what path we take. The non-righteous path leads to non-immortality (i.e. mortality), evidently.
Additionally, Jesus says God can (is able) to destroy souls in Hell implying that souls are NOT immortal. Jesus wouldn’t say that God is able to do something that’s not possible to do (destroy a soul).]
2 Timothy 1:10 (NIV) but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
Romans 1:23 (NIV) … and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
Dr. Mohler, in the OP podcast debate, stated that he believed that all human’s souls are immortal just as you have. His basis for his belief was based in the fact that humans are ‘made in the image of God’ and thus he includes God’s immortality as a communicable attribute. He quoted no Scripture, however, to support that belief, however, nor did he provide a response to Chris’ Scriptural argument against this beleif. Nor have you. Immortal souls, seems like a direct contradiction to Prov 12:28 and Rom 1:23 to me. Rom 1:23 specifically says God’s immortal yet humans are mortal and seems to not mean just our bodies either. Your thoughts on how you Biblically justify believing that “all souls are immortal” would be appreciated. Plus we have:
1 Corinthians 15:53 (NIV) For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
[Paul says humans are perishable
and mortal.. And thusly must “clothe” ourselves with immortality. We don’t become immortal, we “clothe” ourselves with what is immortal (God). I don’t understand how someone can hold on to a belief that “souls are immortal” in light of these verses. To me, perishable and imperishable is Paul talking about the body, where mortal and immortal is Paul talking about the soul. (as Jesus specifically does in Matt 10:28). ]
1 Timothy 1:17 (NIV) Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 6:16 (NIV) [God] who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
[Paul says only God is immortal, so how can human souls also be immortal?.
We are not created immortal, in my new opinion, and I request that you provide your Biblical basis for why you think we are created with immortal souls.
Believers have eternal life and will live with God eternally.
I agree.
Unbelievers will exist in the second death eternally.
I disagree.
Unbelievers are not on the right (the righteous) path and nor have they clothed themselves with God’s imperishability or immortality (body or soul).
For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable.
the mortal with immortality.
Notice how I’ve already established that souls are not imperishable (God can most certainly destroy both the body and the soul in Hell, Matt 10:28). And even if this is Paul talking exclusively about the body’s existence (versus the body and the soul’s existence), souls still requires (“
must clothe itself”) with something that’s imperishable outside of themselves.
Plus, it’s not obvious to me that Paul means the body only here. It seems to me he’s got both the body and the soul in mind since he uses two ways to describe what must occur.
The gift is eternal life; God's life. Unbelievers have rejected that gift.
I agree.
“The gift is eternal life; God's life”
vs
‘The punishment is eternal destruction; God’s destruction.’ Sounds right to me. And we have an example of God’s destruction (Sodom)
2 Thess 1:9 (LEB) [the lost] who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,
Heb 12:29 (LEB) For indeed our God is a consuming fire.
2 Peter 2:6 (LEB) [God] condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes, having appointed them as an example for those who are going to be ungodly,
Immortality and eternal life aren't the same thing.
I agree. Eternal life is given to believers as a gift that they have (present tense). Immortality, on the other hand, only belongs to God. He clothes us with His immortality. But the point is, unbelievers don’t have the gift of Eternal Life nor are they clothed with God’s immortality.
Also, notice this:
Proverbs 12:28 (LEB) On the road of righteousness is life,
and on the way of the path, may there be no death.
Proverbs 12:28 (NIV) In the way of righteousness there is life;
along that path is immortality.
Quite literally immortality means “no death”. Mortality means death.
And to me, ‘Second Death” mean’s God’s death as Jesus says only God is able to perform in Matt 10:28.
2. WRT ‘spiritual death’ being their existence in Hell forever and it’s ‘separation from God’, that I disagree with:
Those who never receive the free gift of Eternal Life remain in spiritual death ...
First, let me just say upfront that I’m no physicalist or monist. I do believe in a physical body and a non-physical soul. (per Matt 10:28 and many other passages)
Proverbs 24:12 (LEB) … And he who keeps your soul, he knows and will repay humankind according to his deeds.
[Who “keeps” a soul if God’s not doing it because He’s separated Himself? Answer is nobody does. So what happens when souls are separated from its keeper? I say, the destruction of a soul happens, (i.e. nobody is keeping it).
But my question is, on your view, who “keeps” souls existing in Hell if God has separated Himself from those souls (if not destroyed them as Matt 10:28 implies He will)?
Proverbs 24:14 (LEB) Thus know wisdom for the sake of your soul, if you find it, then there is a future, and your hope will not be cut off.
God is the only hope for our souls, the only Eternal future for our souls. Once God abruptly and eternally separates Himself from the souls of the lost, it seems their souls are “cut off” from their Keeper.
Those who never receive the free gift of Eternal Life remain in spiritual death and end up in the second death.
Do you honestly tell a party-till –you-drop, ‘dead-in-his-sins’, lost person who’s
walking the course of the world,
doing the desires of the flesh (that is, on the un-righteous path, see Prov 12:28) such as Paul describes in Eph 2:1-3’s ‘spiritual death’ passage (which, by the way doesn’t actually say ‘spiritual death’) that he’s going to Hell where he’ll be right back there ‘spiritually dead’ a second time and thusly right back there doing the
desires of the flesh in Hell forever? If not, why not since that’s the passage you seem to be basing your definition of ‘spiritual death’ on.
Also, WRT Adam/Eve’s ‘spiritual death’ (which yet again, isn’t actually in the Gen Text) yet has been vaguely mentioned, you do realize that God walked/talked in the Garden with them and even blessed Adam/Eve after the very day they ate the fruit, right? Is that your definition of ‘spiritual death’ then? Really?
