Should Christians take medicine ?

[follower of Christ]

Should Christians take medicine ?

 

[Drew]

Absolutely. God is redeeming his creation, and whether the insitutions of medecine know it or not, they are part of the process.

I believe that some Christians rejects medecine because they buy into the false dualism between a "bad' fallen material order, and a pure undefiled spiritual realm. They therefore reason that rescue from illness is to be pursued in a strictly "spiritual" mode - prayer, laying on of hands, etc.

Of course, the fundamental premise is mistaken - it may apply in some non-Christian worldviews, but not in Biblical Christianity.

 

[Free]

Yes.

 

[Cornelius]

Absolutely. God is redeeming his creation, and whether the insitutions of medecine know it or not, they are part of the process.

I believe that some Christians rejects medecine because they buy into the false dualism between a "bad' fallen material order, and a pure undefiled spiritual realm. They therefore reason that rescue from illness is to be pursued in a strictly "spiritual" mode - prayer, laying on of hands, etc.

Of course, the fundamental premise is mistaken - it may apply in some non-Christian worldviews, but not in Biblical Christianity.

You are correct. God has no place in healing anymore in the modern church. We successfully replaced Him with science and medicine. Who needs Him anyway.

 

[Free]

That's not what he said.

 

[Cornelius]

Why do we need God to heal us, when we have medicine? I mean my unbelieving neighbor gets the same meds as the Christians do . They don't believe its God healing them, and they are right: Its science.

 

[Drew]

Why do we need God to heal us, when we have medicine?

This is precisely the false dualism I was talking about.

I am sure you are all familiar with the story of the man stranded on the roof in a flood. He prays that God will deliver him. Five minutes later, along comes a motor boat whose occupants offer to take him to safety. He says "No, thanks, I am waiting for God to rescue me". Fifteen minutes later, along comes a helcopter whose occupants make the same offer. He gives the same response.

An hour later, the man is swallowed up by the flood, still thinking that God has not answered his prayer.

I trust the analogy is clear.

 

[Cornelius]

Why do we need God to heal us, when we have medicine?

This is precisely the false dualism I was talking about.

I am sure you are all familiar with the story of the man stranded on the roof in a flood. He prays that God will deliver him. Five minutes later, along comes a motor boat whose occupants offer to take him to safety. He says "No, thanks, I am waiting for God to rescue me". Fifteen minutes later, along comes a helcopter whose occupants make the same offer. He gives the same response.

An hour later, the man is swallowed up by the flood, still thinking that God has not answered his prayer.

I trust the analogy is clear.

Very clear thanks : we do not need miracles, we have medicine.It kind of frees up some time for God to do more important stuff.God gave us meds to help us so that we do not always have to do the faith thing. We now can simply just trust the doctors. Like with the swine flue vaccination. Just trust and take the jab, God sent it.

 

[Drew]

Very clear thanks : we do not need miracles, we have medicine.It kind of frees up some time for God to do more important stuff.God gave us meds to help us so that we do not always have to do the faith thing. We now can simply just trust the doctors. Like with the swine flue vaccination. Just trust and take the jab, God sent it.

You seem to believe that God simply does not work through the means of medicine. I am not sure precisely where in the scriptures such an idea is endorsed. You are posing a false choice - as if we need to choose between God and medecine. This is kind of like asking the famous question "Have you stopped beating your wife". It assumes a false premise.

The scriptures teach us that God has a commitment to work through his creation to redeem it, not by "stepping outside" it. Thus we have the commissioning of Abraham to be the father of a people through whom God would redeem His world.

If we adopted your line of thinking, we would say "God only solves his problems through stepping outside the flow of human affairs, so clearly this Abraham fellow - as a mere man - cannot be part of any plan to redeem the world".

 

[Cornelius]

Very clear thanks : we do not need miracles, we have medicine.It kind of frees up some time for God to do more important stuff.God gave us meds to help us so that we do not always have to do the faith thing. We now can simply just trust the doctors. Like with the swine flue vaccination. Just trust and take the jab, God sent it.

You seem to believe that God simply does not work through the means of medicine. I am not sure precisely where in the scriptures such an idea is endorsed. You are posing a false choice - as if we need to choose between God and medecine. This is kind of like asking the famous question "Have you stopped beating your wife". It assumes a false premise.

The scriptures teach us that God has a commitment to work through his creation to redeem it, not by "stepping outside" it. Thus we have the commissioning of Abraham to be the father of a people through whom God would redeem His world.

If we adopted your line of thinking, we would say "God only solves his problems through stepping outside the flow of human affairs, so clearly this Abraham fellow - as a mere man - cannot be part of any plan to redeem the world".

You are so right. Why would God step outside, when He can just leave it up to science.

This scripture anyway does not make sense. Its written in "past tense" so it must be a bad translation. I think it should read "medicine are healed" not "stripes ye WERE healed" That is just plain impossible anyway.

1Pe 2:24 who his own self bare our sins in his body upon the tree, that we, having died unto sins, might live unto righteousness; by whose stripes ye were healed.

I think God meant; 1Pe 2:24 who his own self bare our sins in his body upon the tree, that we, having died unto sins, might live unto righteousness; by whose medicine ye are healed.

 

[Drew]

You are so right. Why would God step outside, when He can just leave it up to science.

As has already been shown to, this line of thinking could lead someone to sardonically object to the covenant plan as follows:

"Why should God get involved, if Abraham can do the job"

....implying that, of course, to involve Abraham is to kick God out of the loop.

We all know, or at least should know, the proper way to think about this. God worked through elements of his created order - Abraham - to solve a problem. He did not "sidestep" Abraham because that would somehow "take God out of the loop".

In precisely the same that God was at work through the simple man Abraham, He can be at work through the scientists who develop medecines.

The "God vs science" is a false choice - the game has been rigged from the start when you adopt such a mindset.

 

[Cornelius]

We all know, or at least should know, the proper way to think about this. God worked through elements of his created order -

Yes, like Jesus walking on the water ! There must have been stones underneath .God always works through elements of his created order.

 

[Drew]

We all know, or at least should know, the proper way to think about this. God worked through elements of his created order -

Yes, like Jesus walking on the water ! There must have been stones underneath .God always works through elements of his created order.

Of course, you know that I never suggested that there is no place for the miraculous.

You have not addressed my arguments. So I will pose a question that I think you will not want to answer:

Did God work through Abraham the man, and more broadly, through the Jews as a people, to bring about the redemption of mankind?

If you answer "no", you preserve your position that God does not work through the "mundane" elements of this world such as simple folk like Abraham and scientists, but you deny the clear Biblical story - God did work through Abraham "the mere man".

If you answer "yes" - the Biblically correct answer - then I will ask "Well, if God worked through the simple man Abraham, why can't he work through scientists?"

I look forward to your answer.

 

[Sinthesis]

Very clear thanks : we do not need miracles, we have medicine.It kind of frees up some time for God to do more important stuff.God gave us meds to help us so that we do not always have to do the faith thing. We now can simply just trust the doctors. Like with the swine flue vaccination. Just trust and take the jab, God sent it.

You seem to believe that God simply does not work through the means of medicine. I am not sure precisely where in the scriptures such an idea is endorsed. You are posing a false choice - as if we need to choose between God and medecine. This is kind of like asking the famous question "Have you stopped beating your wife". It assumes a false premise.

The scriptures teach us that God has a commitment to work through his creation to redeem it, not by "stepping outside" it. Thus we have the commissioning of Abraham to be the father of a people through whom God would redeem His world.

If we adopted your line of thinking, we would say "God only solves his problems through stepping outside the flow of human affairs, so clearly this Abraham fellow - as a mere man - cannot be part of any plan to redeem the world".

You are so right. Why would God step outside, when He can just leave it up to science.

This scripture anyway does not make sense. Its written in "past tense" so it must be a bad translation. I think it should read "medicine are healed" not "stripes ye WERE healed" That is just plain impossible anyway.

1Pe 2:24 who his own self bare our sins in his body upon the tree, that we, having died unto sins, might live unto righteousness; by whose stripes ye were healed.

I think God meant; 1Pe 2:24 who his own self bare our sins in his body upon the tree, that we, having died unto sins, might live unto righteousness; by whose medicine ye are healed.

1Peter 2:24 is about spiritual healing; Jesus' victory over death (our justly earned wages for our sin) and the spoils of which He is willing to share with believers in the guise of an eternal afterlife.

Ironically, only the spiritually myopic believe this verse is about physical healing. :shades

 

[Cornelius]

1Peter 2:24 is about spiritual healing; Jesus' victory over death (our justly earned wages for our sin) and the spoils of which He is willing to share with believers in the guise of an eternal afterlife.

Ironically, only the spiritually myopic believe this verse is about physical healing. :shades

Of course it is, it very clearly says so: 1Pe 2:24 who his own self bare our sins in his body upon the tree, that we, having died unto sins, might live unto righteousness; by whose stripes ye were healed spiritually.

 

[Cornelius]

We all know, or at least should know, the proper way to think about this. God worked through elements of his created order -

Yes, like Jesus walking on the water ! There must have been stones underneath .God always works through elements of his created order.

Of course, you know that I never suggested that there is no place for the miraculous.

You have not addressed my arguments. So I will pose a question that I think you will not want to answer:

Did God work through Abraham the man, and more broadly, through the Jews as a people, to bring about the redemption of mankind?

If you answer "no", you preserve your position that God does not work through the "mundane" elements of this world such as simple folk like Abraham and scientists, but you deny the clear Biblical story - God did work through Abraham "the mere man".

If you answer "yes" - the Biblically correct answer - then I will ask "Well, if God worked through the simple man Abraham, why can't he work through scientists?"

I look forward to your answer.

And my answer is

Psa 119:160 The sum of thy word is truth;

If you are going to ignore scriptures in favor of one view, then you are going to fall into error.So, in order for us to understand healing in the Biblical view, we must also know what it meant for us, when Jesus removed the curse. In order to know that, we must know what the curse is. If we are going to use the "God works through humans " argument, we must also be informed about when He does NOT use humans. We must then know what faith is and how it brings to pass the promises of God.

In other words, at the end of your Bible study, you must be able to flawlessly explain the following verses:
Mat 17:20 .... nothing shall be impossible unto you. 1Jn 4:17 ... because as he is, even so are we in this world.

and

Mar 11:23 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou taken up and cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that what he saith cometh to pass; he shall have it.

and

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father who is in heaven. (this would include healing, because it clearly says: anything )

 

[Drew]

And my answer is

Psa 119:160 The sum of thy word is truth;

If we are going to use the "God works through humans " argument, we must also be informed about when He does NOT use humans.

I take it that you are acknowleding that God did indeed work through Abraham - it would not work to deny this. Good.

I do not follow the relevance of the other texts. I suspect that you are reasoning as follows:

1. God did indeed work through Abraham - a mere man;
2. But Abraham had explicit faith in God - which the majority of scientists do not.
3. Therefore, the Abraham analogy breaks down - and I (Cornelius) can retain my position that God does not work through scientists.

Is this your position? If it is, I suggest a glance at Romans 9 to 11 should cause one to rethink this.

 

[Cornelius]

And my answer is

Psa 119:160 The sum of thy word is truth;

If we are going to use the "God works through humans " argument, we must also be informed about when He does NOT use humans.

I take it that you are acknowleding that God did indeed work through Abraham - it would not work to deny this. Good.

I do not follow the relevance of the other texts. I suspect that you are reasoning as follows:

1. God did indeed work through Abraham - a mere man;
2. But Abraham had explicit faith in God - which the majority of scientists do not.
3. Therefore, the Abraham analogy breaks down - and I (Cornelius) can retain my position that God does not work through scientists.

Is this your position?

If you cannot see the relevance of the other scriptures, then its going to be difficult from now on. You are resolute to explain to me, something by using a Greek way of thinking. God says that is silly.1Co 1:22 Seeing that Jews ask for signs, and Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto Jews a stumblingblock, and unto Gentiles foolishness;
1Co 1:24 but unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

I am preaching Christ crucified to you, and what He bought for you at the cross, and you are spending your effort trying to sell me on a human "wisdom" ?

I say this, because I experience God's power in my life. Its not a theory. Its my reality. I have seen God heal more than my body without the help of science. I have seen Him fix a broken water pipe, that were spewing water. When He finished, there was no sign to tell where the hole was before, the pipe returned to new. When He healed a friend of mine in January, she had a huge tumor. So large she could not sit, but she took His promise of healing, spoke it out loud to all, including the doctor who had the x-ray. (Yes she did go and find out what was wrong ) She refused treatment and it took one month for the tumor to disappear. The doctor said its impossible, but she is clean. I have so many such testimonies. All from people who decided to take God by His Word.

 

[Drew]

If you cannot see the relevance of the other scriptures, then its going to be difficult from now on. You are resolute to explain to me, something by using a Greek way of thinking. God says that is silly.1Co 1:22 Seeing that Jews ask for signs, and Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto Jews a stumblingblock, and unto Gentiles foolishness;
1Co 1:24 but unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

This is a non-argument.

I have a very clear argument - that since God worked through the mere man Abraham, he can work through scientists. Now please do not speculate about "my Greek way of thinking". Address my argument or tell me specifically what is wrong with how I approach this.

I am preaching Christ crucified to you, and what He bought for you at the cross, and you are spending your effort trying to sell me on a human "wisdom" ?

This is a common pattern - when a challenging argument is presented, it is dismissed as mere human wisdom.

My argument is what it is - please engage it. If God uses Abraham - a mere man - as part of God's redemptive plan, then why can He not use scientists - mere men - to heal?

I say this, because I experience God's power in my life. Its not a theory. Its my reality.

I do not deny this - I have never denied miraculous healing. But surely you realize that the fact that God sometimes heals without medecine is not an argument that He does not also use medecine to heal.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

You guys are aware the Alchemy is witch craft, and chemistry is a descendant of Alchemy. Chemistry is the changing and the observation of changes in energy. Energy manipulation is witchcraft.

Medicine relies on chemistry to create its elixirs, and potions to cure the body.

When Germ theory first appeared on the scene, the church didn't like it that much.