Should Christians take medicine ?

[GodspromisesRyes]

cornelius AMEN! i had written another post about this and when i went to post it the computer messed up and did not post it so instead of trying to rewrite the same thing i will write something differnt.

I will make a short example of myself and my husband. I have walked in faith without docs or medicine for 8 years and God has always been faithful. My husband came to the Lord fully more recently and has not walked without docs or medicine fully yet but desired to. This year i got sick and we were battling the enemy in faith because we knew it was a spiritual issue that was making me physically sick. Through this we ended up in the hospital and they diagnosed me with cancer. we had a hard fight with what to do, to believe God to heal me and walk out of the hositpal or to do chemo. I knew that it was not up to me but it ws up to my husband what would be done for me. What i did know is that no matter what my husband decided I would have to stand in faith and trust God no matter what i saw or had to go through. Finally my husband through much wrestlings between what he desired to do(stand in total faith and not do chemo) and what he felt that he had the faith to do which was do the chemo and trust God to keep me from any harm of the poison. God led him to do what he had the faith to do which was to have me do the chemo and trust him each time in the smaller matter of being kept from harm and side effects from that poison. This causes many multiple smaller(but still large) trials oen after another in which my husband got to exercise his faith and believe God where he could and it began to increase his faith as we went along so that his faith did not stay dependant upon doctors but was used despite them towards God.

Now for me the day we were to begin chemo, i got a call confirming my faith that i was already healed from a brother in the Lord. Although my husband could not believe it I knew i was to stand in faith of it and i did. An hour or so later the Lord gave me another confirmation that this was my day of delvierance from this disease and enemy and i stood in faith that i was already healed. Now for my husband i still had to go through every treatment and doc appointment and then radiation the whole time believing i was healed already no matter what was seen or felt or said. Through this God taught my husband and i to be unified in faith where we were both at and grew both of our faiths up more. God also used it to help crucify my flesh more daily as well as my husbands. In this God used by His total divine healing and faith towards him- and he used doctros and faith towards him where he could be had and through it He did not leave either of us int he same state of faith we were in but grew up both of our faiths more fully.

 

[Adullam]

If a person is sick and they do not yet have the faith then they should use wisdom and go to a doctor because their faith will not carry them through a trial of faith in that matter yet, but that does not mean they should do so without also using that as an opportunity to believe God for healing in smaller matters and to hear the word of God in that area that their faith may grow, that they will walk justly and pleasing coming to know God better and trust him more fully so that as they grow more and more glory in their lives will be given to God alone without physical means for what is already spiritually accomplished.

Amen. Do not go where you have no faith to go. But we are to be open to learn. We must start somewhere. We must want to be found in faith. Faith grows. The Word brings that faith when it takes root in our hearts. And we must not pull others down who have chosen to walk in faith.

There is no LAW here, there is only the desire to walk in the way provided by God through Jesus. He showed us the way, not we have to walk in it: step by step.

Wise council! :amen

 

[Cornelius]

Thank you for sharing. This is a good example of being where your faith is at that moment.But also that your faith was directed towards God all the time and what He promised. Praise God

 

[Free]

Three facts remain:

1. Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach.
2. God created plants, among other things, with medicinal properties. In denying any use of medicine, you are effectively declaring that God's creation is not good.
3. God does not always heal.

To make this into a case of "all you need is faith" is utter nonsense and is an extremely harmful doctrine.

 

[lovely]

I believe that God heals us according to His will, and I believe that he does it spontaneously as well as through good diet, and herbs, and good medicines. I am not sure why it is one or the other, or why one is a lack of faith and the other is great faith. It isn't scriptural at all. God has provided for us in more than one way.

The other thing is, when someone goes to a faith healer, they are asked if they believe, and they reply 'yes', but when they walk out of there not healed they are accused of having a lack of faith. Why isn't it ever this person who claims they have the gift of healing that is accused of deceit, or the prophet who declared one is healed when their not as being false? Isn't just showing up to be healed at all evidence of their faith? These people prey on the sick, God help them. When I have been healed, it has been through the prayers of my family and through the prayers of the elders, godly men, in my assembly.

My daughter has a birth defect in her heart. The title is Aortic Stenosis. My husband, a man of faith, died at 36 from this 'defect' that had gone undetected his whole life. God took Him home one Sunday morning suddenly, and I never felt like he should have had more faith and then he wouldn't have died. I saw his faith and trust in our Lord daily. Several years back my lungs failed me, and I have not been able to breathe very well since. During this time we were praying, our church was praying, but the Lord did not heal me. We changed doctors, and I took all of the children in for a check up...even though they had just been a few months prior at the old doctor...I wanted to establish them as patients. My new doctor listened to my daughter's heart for two seconds and realized there was a problem. I felt as if God used my own sickness to reveal hers. We pray for her healing, but God has not chosen to heal her. Why? I believe He has a plan to use both of us, so that we can be a comfort to others...so that we can touch the lives of others. Do I continue to ask for healing yes, but I also continue to trust His will above my own. I am in His hands, He gives me the strength to continue through the storm, and if He desires to heal me He will do so in His time, but in the mean time I am not going to feel guilty, or be guilted, by those who think that God always heals when asked, and that it is a lack of faith on the part of a believer when He doesn't. I will also not yoke my daughter with such a teaching. I teach her to eat well with the natural things God has made, eat His herbs, and work hard to exercise her body. God has healed her soul, she is a beliver, but she will accept His will for her heart...keep asking, but love His will above your own needs and desires more. Be a light in the midst of it, and touch those around you with His love that is in you. Walk forward in this faith, a faith not seeking your own, but willing to be given over no matter what the cost is to you.

The Lord bless all of you.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

Three facts remain:

1. Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach.
2. God created plants, among other things, with medicinal properties. In denying any use of medicine, you are effectively declaring that God's creation is not good.
3. God does not always heal.

To make this into a case of "all you need is faith" is utter nonsense and is an extremely harmful doctrine.

The problem is these three are not exactly facts as you put them forth. 1) yes paul told timothy to take wine for his stomach.- firstly you are assuming he meant real wine for a medicinal purpose. It could be shown from scripture that he was speaking to him of taking wine, as in the cup of the Lord communion for his stomach. In the early church they often did this with breaking bread and it was life unto them. I personally have had times where i was beginning to come under a sickness and was not doing any sins to warrent it for punishment and God has told me in a few cases to go and pray and recieve the cup and bread in rememberance of Him and when i have done so i was healed. He does not always tell me to do this but has in certian cases so you are assuming something into this scripture. i recomment " the meal that heals" by perry stone.- Also let us say that maybe it was just literal wine with no communion idea in thought, just for medicinal purposes, that does not mean that paul was telling timothy that God would not heal him, that he should not wait upon the Lord in faith for healing and it does not mean that God never healed timothy- we are not given further details on this so assumptions against Gods promise cannot be made. Also we know that wine by it self does not heal anything so if it was for medicinal purposes it could have been to help timothy be releaved until the Lord healed him. You i am sure do not want me to assume that to be true, so you also cannot assume this shows anything beyond what it says without further studying about the use of wine by the church.
2.Yes God made plants and herbs. They are for us to eat and use for other purposes.. not taking medicine is not saying Gods creation is not good it is saying that God has a better way to those who are born again and in covenant with Him that is beyond this physical creation and what is seen. Just because one believes God for what He gives that is BETTER than the physical creation does not mean that his creation is not good. Also medicine is alot more than herbs and plants there is alot of synthetic things in them. In fact it is illegal to sell plants and herbs as medicines and cures! Medicines are not just people saying oh God made this root to heal headaches. Beyond that most medicines do not even heal or cure anything at all they only deal with the symptoms of what is wrong.
3. you say " God doesnt always heal" That is true. AS with all covenants and promises there are conditions upon recieving Gods healing. See the healing itself is already proivded for us in Jesus sacrifice, it was already given to us. But God says that if we do not BELIEVE we will not recieve. If we do not forgive or repent we also will not recieve. BUT when we do believe and repent and forgive then God always heals because He has PROMISED and HE CANNOT LIE. His promises are YES and AMEN. they are not yes and no or maybe.Now we are told that we may endure a trial of our faith to make us patinet and bare fruit in us but a trial of faith does not mean that we have not recieved the promise and will see the result which is our healing. It means we have to wait upon the Lord knowing that HE cannot fail, He cannot lie, He cannpt promise and then withhold. We are further promised that if we ask anything in his name by His will that He will do it.We are told if we go to the elders and confess and are sick they will annoint us with oil and we SHALL be healed.These are matters of people not believing God, or not being willing to rpeent, or forgive who do not get healed. OR they have began in faith but did not endure through a trial of their faith so they gave up their faith in the middle before they recieved the outcome.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

I believe that God heals us according to His will, and I believe that he does it spontaneously as well as through good diet, and herbs, and good medicines. I am not sure why it is one or the other, or why one is a lack of faith and the other is great faith. It isn't scriptural at all. God has provided for us in more than one way.

The other thing is, when someone goes to a faith healer, they are asked if they believe, and they reply 'yes', but when they walk out of there not healed they are accused of having a lack of faith. Why isn't it ever this person who claims they have the gift of healing that is accused of deceit, or the prophet who declared one is healed when their not as being false? Isn't just showing up to be healed at all evidence of their faith? These people prey on the sick, God help them. When I have been healed, it has been through the prayers of my family and through the prayers of the elders, godly men, in my assembly.

My daughter has a birth defect in her heart. The title is Aortic Stenosis. My husband, a man of faith, died at 36 from this 'defect' that had gone undetected his whole life. God took Him home one Sunday morning suddenly, and I never felt like he should have had more faith and then he wouldn't have died. I saw his faith and trust in our Lord daily. Several years back my lungs failed me, and I have not been able to breathe very well since. During this time we were praying, our church was praying, but the Lord did not heal me. We changed doctors, and I took all of the children in for a check up...even though they had just been a few months prior at the old doctor...I wanted to establish them as patients. My new doctor listened to my daughter's heart for two seconds and realized there was a problem. I felt as if God used my own sickness to reveal hers. We pray for her healing, but God has not chosen to heal her. Why? I believe He has a plan to use both of us, so that we can be a comfort to others...so that we can touch the lives of others. Do I continue to ask for healing yes, but I also continue to trust His will above my own. I am in His hands, He gives me the strength to continue through the storm, and if He desires to heal me He will do so in His time, but in the mean time I am not going to feel guilty, or be guilted, by those who think that God always heals when asked, and that it is a lack of faith on the part of a believer when He doesn't. I will also not yoke my daughter with such a teaching. I teach her to eat well with the natural things God has made, eat His herbs, and work hard to exercise her body. God has healed her soul, she is a beliver, but she will accept His will for her heart...keep asking, but love His will above your own needs and desires more. Be a light in the midst of it, and touch those around you with His love that is in you. Walk forward in this faith, a faith not seeking your own, but willing to be given over no matter what the cost is to you.

The Lord bless all of you.

I understand what you are syaing here, and when we are in personal matters we can get emotional or attached to certian ideas and it can be hard to even discuss these matters openly.Many say they have faith but they do not for many reasons. Just going up to get healed does not show that a person has faith. Faith believes that you were healed until you see it, it does not matter what your pain says what a doctor says what the world says or what can be seen. Faith believes it is already done no matter what is seen and it believes that until it is seen.If a person went up to get healed and " walked away not healed" then they did not believe they were healed because their healing is not about it being physically seen or felt in that moment it is about reciving healing by faith so if they believe they will walk out praising God that they are healed and it will not matter if they are still hurting or limping or whatever. and a person can be a fake healer and a person with real faith towards God can still be healed because it is God who gives healing by faith.
As far as saying that it is not always Gods will to heal, people say that based on what they see in the world and their own lives, and not based on the bible speaking to believers. No where in the bible does God say it is not His will to heal a person who believes in Him. No where does it show God wanting to keep someone sick for their whole life to use them for the good of others. This is not scriptural but it is reasoning that we choose to believe because we do not understand why we are in a situation or why things appear a certian way.Now God may use a sickness we have or have had for the good of others, that does not mean it is Gods will that we remain sick and not be healed.When we study the word of God on healing we will be greatly encoruaged in faith to see and learn for SURE what His will is in healing towards those who believe him. NEVER did God turn away anyone who came to him in faith OT or NT. God always promised that if they would obey hima nd believe him he would heal ALL their diseases. Jesus took stripes on His body to heal us and the NT declares that we WERE healed already!Jesus said that all those who came to him in faith who were sick he healed because isiah the prophet said that He bore on his body ALL our sicknesses. People get greatly offended at the idea that they are being blamed for not having enough faith(or are not enduring a trial of their faith) but they are not offended at the idea that its Gods fault that He is not fulfilling what he promised.We should humble ourselves and realize none of our faith's are perfect YET, none of our faiths are to the point where they cannot grow and trust any more any deeper. we ALL have lack of faith in ceritan areas. Jesus said to the APOSTLES who walked WITH HIM who SAW HIM do miracles O YE OF LITTLE FAITH! If the apostles who were hand chosen in person by Him who heard him daily who laid on his breast who saw his works could have little faith and not be able to do certian things because of THEIR lack of faith- why are any of us beyond hearing that we are having a lack of faith?Some people today if they had been with jesus in person would have been offended that he revealed their lack of faith and they would have left him!Jesus told people over and over and over when he healed them" your faith has made you whole" "by yorur fiath you are healed" the cases where he said this are too numerous to say that healing doe snot come by faith. In Jesus home town it says HE could to LITTLE MIRACLES because of their lack of faith! JESUS could not to alot of miracles because of their lack of faith! Now mostly we have a lack of fiath because we do not properly know what the word of God says about healing, we do not know the fullness of His promises so we are left to deside what makes sence to us and run with it.To believe that ist is not always Gods will to heal His own people who believe on Him is not scriptural and cannot be proved by the word. On top of that God cannot lie, and He PROMISED us healing. He also teaches us in the word that we enter into his rest and salvation by FAITH. Many do not even know what faith is. They say they believe but when they do not instantly SEE what they believe for they say see it didnt work but faith is believing without seeing. Faith is the SUBSTANCE of what is hoped for! so God promised healing and the substance of our healing is our FAITH!Be encouraged and not overcome read the word of God and cast off all opinions of flesh and prove all things by the word your faith will grow, you wil be able to walk more and more fully in it and you WILL receive the promise! And if you must first endure a TRIAL of your faith before you see the outcome, then you will be blessed to also gain patience!

 

[lovely]

GodsPromisesRyes,

I am not offended or feeling emotional, I just don't agree that what is being put forth in this thread is based in Scripture. Thanks for your response, the Lord bless you. I am going to look in the scriptures again, because I want to hear the Lord, but for now none of what is being said about medicine resonates as truth to me according to the Word of God. Jesus forgives sin, He heals our sin-sick souls, and He heals our bodies with His touch and through medicine, but I do not see where God has promised to answer every request for healing when verses are read in context...if that were the case then men wouldn't die. Paul asked God to remove His thorn, but God said 'No'. Jesus asked Him to take away the bitter cup of His wrath, but the Father said 'No'. His plans are greater than our momentary healing, and faith is trusting His plan. I don't even understand the point of what is being put forth here, beyond defending deceitful ministers, and putting condemnation on the sick and feeble.

 

[handy]

GodsPromisesRyes,

I am not offended or feeling emotional, I just don't agree that what is being put forth in this thread is based in Scripture. Thanks for your response, the Lord bless you. I am going to look in the scriptures again, because I want to hear the Lord, but for now none of what is being said about medicine resonates as truth to me according to the Word of God. Jesus forgives sin, He heals our sin-sick souls, and He heals our bodies with His touch and through medicine, but I do not see where God has promised to answer every request for healing when verses are read in context...if that were the case then men wouldn't die. Paul asked God to remove His thorn, but God said 'No'. Jesus asked Him to take away the bitter cup of His wrath, but the Father said 'No'. His plans are greater than our momentary healing, and faith is trusting His plan. I don't even understand the point of what is being put forth here, beyond defending deceitful ministers, and putting condemnation on the sick and feeble.

I stand firmly in agreement with you on this, Lovely. There is nothing in Scripture that even hints we should not take medicine and too often the "faith healing" preaching becomes a way to question the faith of the chronically ill or even worse, cause them to question whether God loves them.

 

[Free]

It could be shown from scripture that he was speaking to him of taking wine, as in the cup of the Lord communion for his stomach.

No, it cannot. Communion is not even a part of the context here.

1 Tim 5:23 (No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.) (ESV)

Also let us say that maybe it was just literal wine with no communion idea in thought, just for medicinal purposes, that does not mean that paul was telling timothy that God would not heal him, that he should not wait upon the Lord in faith for healing and it does not mean that God never healed timothy- we are not given further details on this so assumptions against Gods promise cannot be made.

It is clear that Paul was referring to literal wine with no communion in mind, specifically for Timothy's frequent stomach ailments. The assumption is clearly in your position that it might be regarding communion.

Also we know that wine by it self does not heal anything so if it was for medicinal purposes it could have been to help timothy be releaved until the Lord healed him.

Do you know that? Do you know that it is rich in anti-oxidants and other things that really could do away with certain stomach and intestinal ailments? This was a common sense approach by Paul.

2.Yes God made plants and herbs. They are for us to eat and use for other purposes.. not taking medicine is not saying Gods creation is not good it is saying that God has a better way to those who are born again and in covenant with Him that is beyond this physical creation and what is seen.

Rejecting what God has provided for medicine is saying that what God created isn't good. Also, the obvious implication is that God won't heal someone who doesn't believe; they are left with mere medicine.

Also medicine is alot more than herbs and plants there is alot of synthetic things in them.

Of course there are a lot of synthetics out there but much of it is based on what is found in nature. It makes it cheaper and more readily available. Nothing wrong with that.

Beyond that most medicines do not even heal or cure anything at all they only deal with the symptoms of what is wrong.

That is quite the claim to make, and likely incorrect. Even basic medicine like ibuprophen and muscle relaxants deal with the root cause.

These are matters of people not believing God, or not being willing to rpeent, or forgive who do not get healed. OR they have began in faith but did not endure through a trial of their faith so they gave up their faith in the middle before they recieved the outcome.

Wrong. Sometimes God just doesn't heal in this life.

 

[lovely]

2 Corinthians 12

1 I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heavenâ€â€whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. 3 And I know that this man was caught up into paradiseâ€â€whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows 4 and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter. 5 On behalf of this man I will boast, but on my own behalf I will not boast, except of my weaknesses. 6 Though if I should wish to boast, I would not be a fool, for I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain from it, so that no one may think more of me than he sees in me or hears from me. 7 So to keep me from being too elated by the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from being too elated. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.†Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Paul, a man of great faith, was left with a thorn so that he would not become 'elated' and so that God's power could be revealed through his life. God allowed satan's messenger to harass, even though Paul prayed three times over the matter....'My Grace is sufficient, for my power is made perfect in weakness.' He rejoiced, for Christ's sake, in his infirmities.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

GodsPromisesRyes,

I am not offended or feeling emotional, I just don't agree that what is being put forth in this thread is based in Scripture. Thanks for your response, the Lord bless you. I am going to look in the scriptures again, because I want to hear the Lord, but for now none of what is being said about medicine resonates as truth to me according to the Word of God. Jesus forgives sin, He heals our sin-sick souls, and He heals our bodies with His touch and through medicine, but I do not see where God has promised to answer every request for healing when verses are read in context...if that were the case then men wouldn't die. Paul asked God to remove His thorn, but God said 'No'. Jesus asked Him to take away the bitter cup of His wrath, but the Father said 'No'. His plans are greater than our momentary healing, and faith is trusting His plan. I don't even understand the point of what is being put forth here, beyond defending deceitful ministers, and putting condemnation on the sick and feeble.

lovely just so you know i was not saying that you personally are emotional or offended, but because many people read the posts i was speaking of what can be the case and often is, i did not mean for it to sound like it was definaly applied to you, forgive me for not making that more clear. i would also like to say about this post that we cannot add in here persections because they are not the same as sicknesses. Jesus did not bare our persecutions fully but calls us to also bare them and partake with him in his sufferings, this is a differnt issue than healing. Pauls thorn was aan angel of satan that brought people to persecute him greatly that is another topic but is shown in the OT scriptures on what a " thorn in the flesh" is. It was not any physical sickness. Jesus's sufferings also were persecutions that He withstood to redeem us not physical sickness. I do agree there are many false faith healers, but their sin does not discount the promises of God and the atonement of Jesus for our sicknesses.I am glad you are going back to the scriptures, that is where we should always lean and find our strength.

 

[lovely]

Job 13:15a

Though he slay me, I will hope in him;

Job suffered, but not because a lack of faith, but for God's own purpose.

God's response to Job's friends who insisted that it was due to his own sin...

Job 42

The Lord Rebukes Job's Friends

7 After the Lord had spoken these words to Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite: “My anger burns against you and against your two friends, for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. 8 Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly. For you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.†9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went and did what the Lord had told them, and the Lord accepted Job's prayer.

What they spoke about the Lord was not right.

 

[lovely]

lovely just so you know i was not saying that you personally are emotional or offended, but because many people read the posts i was speaking of what can be the case and often is, i did not mean for it to sound like it was definaly applied to you, forgive me for not making that more clear. i would also like to say about this post that we cannot add in here persections because they are not the same as sicknesses. Jesus did not bare our persecutions fully but calls us to also bare them and partake with him in his sufferings, this is a differnt issue than healing. Pauls thorn was aan angel of satan that brought people to persecute him greatly that is another topic but is shown in the OT scriptures on what a " thorn in the flesh" is. It was not any physical sickness. Jesus's sufferings also were persecutions that He withstood to redeem us not physical sickness. I do agree there are many false faith healers, but their sin does not discount the promises of God and the atonement of Jesus for our sicknesses.I am glad you are going back to the scriptures, that is where we should always lean and find our strength.

I apologize for not reading it that way, but I just wanted to reassure you that I wasn't upset. Forgive me.

I think that it does include sickness, and bearing with others, and taking beatings as the martyrs do, all manner of afflictions and attacks of satan as part of filling up the sufferings of Christ.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

No, it cannot. Communion is not even a part of the context here.

1 Tim 5:23 (No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.) (ESV)


It is clear that Paul was referring to literal wine with no communion in mind, specifically for Timothy's frequent stomach ailments. The assumption is clearly in your position that it might be regarding communion.


Do you know that? Do you know that it is rich in anti-oxidants and other things that really could do away with certain stomach and intestinal ailments? This was a common sense approach by Paul.


Rejecting what God has provided for medicine is saying that what God created isn't good. Also, the obvious implication is that God won't heal someone who doesn't believe; they are left with mere medicine.


Of course there are a lot of synthetics out there but much of it is based on what is found in nature. It makes it cheaper and more readily available. Nothing wrong with that.


That is quite the claim to make, and likely incorrect. Even basic medicine like ibuprophen and muscle relaxants deal with the root cause.


Wrong. Sometimes God just doesn't heal in this life.

Firstly you assume there is nothing but the wine in the wine, we are not told either way but we cannot take ONE sentence in the entire bible and make doctrine out of it we must believe the whole councel of God, and like i said, we do not know that the wine was not just for the time until God would heal him, it does not say God will not heal you, dont believe God. If you said my legs ache i may say take a hot bath, that doesnt mean i believe God wont heal you and it doesnt imply anything either way so we base dcotrine off the whole word not that one sentence that gives no details.
I know that wine can be good for you but it is not known to HEAL anything. It may HELP something but it does not HEAL.
So if rejecting medicine is saying Gods creation is not good, then you are accusing Jesus of that very thing. When people came to him for healing He did not send them with money to the physican, the healed them without plants or herbs. he never once used plants or herbs to make anyone better or direct them to do so. But you would not say that since He did not tell people to take medicine that he was saying his own creation was not good. Was james saying Gods creation is not good when he wrote to the believers that if any amoung you is sick let him go to the elders and they will annoint you and you shall be healed? Was he saying Gods creation was bad because he didnt also tell them or instead tell them to take medicine? Also when Moses was told by God to set up a serpent on the pole(type of JESUS on the cross) and that all who LOOK on it would be healed was God and moses denying the good of His creation because He used a way that needed no meds or docs?God himself gave old and new covenant promises to divinly heal those who obey him, was God saying His creation was bad? why didnt he say " i will bring you into a land flowing with milk and honey and all the medicinal herbs and plants to heal your diseases"?He said I will heal. the Psalmist said forget not His benefits who HEALS ALL OUR DISEASES. There is not one instance in scripture of people being healed by doctros of medicines or God telling people to do so so to say that to deny medicine is to say that Gods creation is not good is ludicrious and woul dhave to condemn the whole word of God as saying the creation isnt good.It is scriptrual that God heals those who believe and obey Him, this is the promise and the covenant. If you will not believe or repent then you remain under the curses of this creation brought by death and if you take meds for that that has nothing to do with what God can do and does do if we obey and believe.

As far as saying sometimes God just does not heal(assuming you are saying even if you believe and obey he wont heal sometimes) this is a total lie. you cannot show any scripture where a faithful obedient believer does not get healed by God when they believe for it.I hope that you will meditate on what the word promise means. When you say God will not do what he promised he would do when you fulfill your end which is to believe and obey then you say He is a liar and you know better.You cannot prove from scripture that God will fail to heal someone who believes and repents and will leave them in a sickness.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

Job 13:15a

Though he slay me, I will hope in him;

Job suffered, but not because a lack of faith, but for God's own purpose.

God's response to Job's friends who insisted that it was due to his own sin...

Job 42

The Lord Rebukes Job's Friends

7 After the Lord had spoken these words to Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite: “My anger burns against you and against your two friends, for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. 8 Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly. For you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.†9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went and did what the Lord had told them, and the Lord accepted Job's prayer.

What they spoke about the Lord was not right.

TRUE!! and What did God do? He used those things for job's good then he HEALED HIM and restored to him DOUBLE! everything He had lost!

 

[Cornelius]

but I do not see where God has promised to answer every request for healing when verses are read in context...

I do hear a lot about "context" on this forum all the time, but nobody ever places it in context with what the whole Word teaches. They seem to think that every page has its own context. But the Bible tells us this about its context: Psa 119:160 The sum of thy word is truth..... meaning we have to know it from beginning to the end. So when we do that, we can see that sickness came through the curse and Jesus took the curse away (only for those who believe this to be the case, the rest still have the curse) Through His stripes we were healed, in all the meanings that the word "healed" covers.

if that were the case then men wouldn't die.

That must follow soon, because death is the LAST enemy that must be conquered. If death is last, sickness surely is before.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death. So yes death must go as well. But before death, sin goes, and sickness goes and bondage goes..........the whole curse has been taken care of.

Paul asked God to remove His thorn, but God said 'No'.

That was a demon, not sickness. The demon was sent to keep him from pride. Paul gives a list of what this demon put him through and in the end Paul admits that it was good for him.2Co 12:7 And by reason of the exceeding greatness of the revelations, that I should not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, that I should not be exalted overmuch.
G32
ἄγγελοÂ
aggelos
ang'-el-os
From ἀγγέλλÉ aggellÃ…Â (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an “angelâ€Â; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.

here is the list:

2Co 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
2Co 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned,9 (No its not talking about Paul abusing substance in a medical way to alleviate his tension) thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day have I been in the deep;
2Co 11:26 in journeyings often, in perils of rivers, in perils of robbers, in perils from my countrymen, in perils from the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
2Co 11:27 in labor and travail, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2Co 11:28 Besides those things that are without, there is that which presseth upon me daily, anxiety for all the churches.
2Co 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is caused to stumble, and I burn not?
2Co 11:30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things that concern my weakness.
Praise God, the demon kept Paul humble and taught him to trust only in God and not in his own ability.

Soon it will be our turn in the coming tribulation to be tested like this as well. Hope you all are ready and that you are well exercised in your faith, so that you too can stand like Paul through all of this.

Jesus asked Him to take away the bitter cup of His wrath, but the Father said 'No'.

That is not talking about healing. Jesus refused no one who came to Him for healing.Mat 8:16 And when even was come, they brought unto him many possessed with demons: and he cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all that were sick: Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever.

His plans are greater than our momentary healing, and faith is trusting His plan.

No , faith is trusting His promises.

I don't even understand the point of what is being put forth here, beyond defending deceitful ministers, and putting condemnation on the sick and feeble.

Maybe the point is hope through the gospel of a loving God, who came to heal and deliver His creation? Who gave Himself , so that you can be free from the curse .Mat 8:17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through Isaiah the prophet, saying: Himself took our infirmities, and bare our diseases. Why on earth would He "bare our diseases" if it only meant that you would be free from sickness in heaven. Goodness , how is it possible that the children of God are so blind as to what Jesus did for them at the cross !!? You are NOT going to need healing in heaven even if Jesus never took your diseases upon Himself. A spirit is strangely resistant too a heart attack, it also seems to care little for the common cold. No, He bore our diseases so that we can be free NOW.

The took a whip to Jesus and ripped His body open until the bones showed. They cut Him to shreds and in this way , He took the punishment that should come to you because of your sin. This whipping, was the part where He took our diseases upon Himself and paid for it.
Stripes:
חבר׆חבּר׆חבּוּר×â€
chabbûrâh chabbûrâh chăbûrâh
(1,2) khab-boo-raw', (3) khab-oo-raw'
From H2266; properly bound (with stripes), that is, a weal (or black and blue mark itself): - blueness, bruise, hurt, stripe, wound.

Why on earth would the Bible say we ARE healed through His wounds and pain if its not effective.

Do you think the price He paid was maybe too little ? Should God have thought up something worse for Him perhaps?

 

[Drew]

The issue is not(for christians) IF God can work through any man. Yes He can. The issue is for christians what Gods will and desire for us is.

Does God desire more that His children should be treated with doctors and scientists and methods of the world, that often cause reactions, side effects, money etc... and that give Him little glory and take no or little faith?

OR

Does God desire more that His children look to His promises and work on the cross and covenants trusting only in Him so that all glory is given to Him and Him alone, to recieve His grace which is free, perfect, with no side effects, no reactions, no lasting damage, where faith in Him is walked in, as the just shall live by faith and where they rely on Him as their faithful Dad in all matters of their lives which really are not even their own but belong to him?

This is a false choice, built on an entirely unscriptural dualism where the material order is deemed fallen and corrupt, which we should seek to relativize in deference to a spiritual order that is pure and undefiled.

This is not what the Bible actually teaches, even though these views are indeed widely held. God created the material order - the plants, and other elements that go into medecines - and He said it was very good. Jesus has inaugurated the healing of the material order.

God does work through people to accomplish His purposes. Therefore a choice to seek conventional medical therapy is not, as you represent, a choice to seek a solution that bypasses God.

Those who promote the view you are promoting routinely misrepresent it as such. It is not.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

The issue is not(for christians) IF God can work through any man. Yes He can. The issue is for christians what Gods will and desire for us is.

Does God desire more that His children should be treated with doctors and scientists and methods of the world, that often cause reactions, side effects, money etc... and that give Him little glory and take no or little faith?

OR

Does God desire more that His children look to His promises and work on the cross and covenants trusting only in Him so that all glory is given to Him and Him alone, to recieve His grace which is free, perfect, with no side effects, no reactions, no lasting damage, where faith in Him is walked in, as the just shall live by faith and where they rely on Him as their faithful Dad in all matters of their lives which really are not even their own but belong to him?

This is a false choice, built on an entirely unscriptural dualism where the material order is deemed fallen and corrupt, which we should seek to relativize in deference to a spiritual order that is pure and undefiled.

This is not what the Bible actually teaches, even though these views are indeed widely held. God created the material order - the plants, and other elements that go into medecines - and He said it was very good. Jesus has inaugurated the healing of the material order.

God does work through people to accomplish His purposes. Therefore a choice to seek conventional medical therapy is not, as you represent, a choice to seek a solution that bypasses God.

Those who promote the view you are promoting routinely misrepresent it as such. It is not.

drew do you forget that God made it good and then it got corrupted and was subject to vanity? why do you think we must be born again from heaven

 

[Drew]

So when we do that, we can see that sickness came through the curse and Jesus took the curse away (only for those who believe this to be the case, the rest still have the curse) Through His stripes we were healed, in all the meanings that the word "healed" covers.

Indeed, and this all the more reason to treat illness with medecines. What has been healed through the curse? Just human beings? Of course not - how egocentric of us to think so. As this text illustrates, God's redemptive activity is in relation to all of reality.

For it was the Father's good pleasure for all (AW)the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

God is not in the business of "saving people" and leaving the rest of the universe to be later tossed in the garbage. Through Christ, all things are being reconciled to Him including, of course, the material world which was deemed to be "very good". The development of medecines and medical technology of part of God's redemptive activity in the world.

God works through his creation - Abraham, Israel, etc - and does not bypass it.

I suggest that medical technology is precisely a manifestation of this - God working in the world to repair and restore.