Should Churches be non-denominational?

[Aero_Hudson]

- I think it is possible to not be in a demonination and worship outside of bylaws set up outside of what is in scripture. For example, the Catholic practice of not marrying individuals into the church that do not convert to Catholicism is an abitrary custom / requirement that is not biblical in my mind and is set up to draw the line between believers.

That's all I have for now. Later!

People enter the Church via baptism, not by marriage...

Regards

I think you understand my meaning. Catholics are not allowed to be married by the church to others that are not Catholic. Again, an arbitrary custom / requirement that is not biblical nor in my humble opinion sound doctrine.

 

[Cornelius]

It is not popular because no one likes to hear a hypocritical and self-righteous approach to God where one replaces one's personal opinions with God. Basically, one must worship at the altar of Cornelius, otherwise, he is marked as part of the unwashed and unholy masses.

It just is an unbiblical religion, the worship of self, and the vanity of it is not lost upon us... And citing Scriptures and inserting your name amongst the holy names is on the verge of blasphemy. You aren't no Gideon, by any stretch of the imagination.

I love you ! You have such a sense for the dramatic ! Has anybody told you ?

Basically, one must worship at the altar of Cornelius, otherwise, he is marked as part of the unwashed and unholy masses.

It does have something almost Shakespearean about it (not the language, its far too modern, but the drama is really there.)

I must admit I am relieved that I am only on the verge of blasphemy, you really had me worried there for a moment.

Heaven forbid then that I would say that I am like Jesus in this world ! Do you think John was blaspheming here ? 1Jn 4:17 ......... because as he is, even so are we in this world.

 

[Vic C.]

Yes, drama is all throughout this thread. You and Adullam cornered the sensationalist's approach for a while there too. :yes

As a third party in these conversations, I can't help but notice personal attacks and accusations here, calling Cornelius a lying and bitter person. [/color][/size] .... :naughty .....

And it wouldn't be the first time he was called out, either, Tina.

There is no need to invent things, if one actually believes they are teaching truth. To those who must lie, well, I don't need to say more about who they follow.

With that said, I see the accusations of Dadof as being valid and I'd say here has the right to ask that his four falsehoods be addressed.

I too cannot help but sense the bitterness and discontent of those who disdain denominational Christianity. They have their reasons but like Free said, those reasons weren't valid. Quoting verses and misinterpreting and/or misapplying them are not the same.

What I see in this thread are the accused unified against those doing the accusing. So one has to wonder, who are the ones being divisive and who or what is it that's behind this divisiveness?

 

[Adullam]

Yes, drama is all throughout this thread. You and Adullam cornered the sensationalist's approach for a while there too. :yes

As a third party in these conversations, I can't help but notice personal attacks and accusations here, calling Cornelius a lying and bitter person. [/color][/size] .... :naughty .....

And it wouldn't be the first time he was called out, either, Tina.

There is no need to invent things, if one actually believes they are teaching truth. To those who must lie, well, I don't need to say more about who they follow.

With that said, I see the accusations of Dadof as being valid and I'd say here has the right to ask that his four falsehoods be addressed.

I too cannot help but sense the bitterness and discontent of those who disdain denominational Christianity. They have their reasons but like Free said, those reasons weren't valid. Quoting verses and misinterpreting and/or misapplying them are not the same.

What I see in this thread are the accused unified against those doing the accusing. So one has to wonder, who are the ones being divisive and who or what is it that's behind this divisiveness?

I see this whole thread as being upside down....The people accusing Cornelius and I are merely reflecting their own reality back upon themselves. The verses we often quote (those hated things) act as a mirror. If they don't like what they see then they accuse another...not recognizing their own reflection.

There is no biblical support for the present church system. That is why it seems unfair to the schism camp....the verses are all stacked on the side of oneness in Christ! :yes Of course this is denied. But what carries more weight? Man-made opinion or biblical statements?

So if I say (with others) that I am against man-made divisions, then they who are for division (or their particular brand of division) can come together as one to denounce unity. So they achieve a short-lived unity, of sorts, of their own. Ironically, it takes a common enemy to bring this unity. But that common enemy just happens to be the truth in this instance.

I won't quote any verses as these would not be respected since they do not support the present church practice. There is no bitterness or disdain at all in this viewpoint. We are simply trying to show others what we have experienced and learned. You will notice (if you are open) that the bitterness lies with those who disdain the scriptures. Is it self-righteous to obey the word and the Spirit? Or is it a breach upon the self-righteousness of they that accuse us? They are divisive after all. There is a spirit at work blinding them from seeing the beauty and simplicity of the truth revealed in Christ. How dare I stand up to the big institutions? Should I fear men?


Did you know that the early Christians were persecuted for being atheists? Who were the true atheists, here? It is the world upside down!

So we are being accused of bitterness by the bitter, of idolatry by the idolators, by walking in our own imaginations by the carnally minded. A blind man can accuse another of blindness since there is nothing to show that he can see better than himself. So it is with they who judge from themselves. Those who so judge never consider that they are themselves judging from themselves...that they are the inspiration of their own accusations. If we claim to be enlightened by the Holy Spirit....then that is ridiculed as not possible. On a Christian forum to boot! ;)


Watch for more upside down comments that are sure to follow. :yes


If the bible is discounted and only human reasoning is allowed, what is to become of this thread? A fate similar to the denominations no doubt!

 

[Adullam]

If I may continue this discussion from a biblical basis.....

We see in the bible that the church was not divided into denominations. There was only one church per city or region. We also see that no church ruled over other churches. Even at Jerusalem, what came from the elders was not an edict or papal bull (nice turn of phrase there ;) ) but an exhortation based on the knowledge of God's will. Back in the day the Holy Spirit still ran the church.

But Paul and Barnabas stayed in Antioch, teaching and preaching with many .... the Holy Spirit said, "Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to ...

Disciples in those days weren't baptized into a particular church...but into Christ. You didn't see rival churches trying to win converts to their own cause.... for instance, you never saw the "Corinthian church" in Ephesus or vice versa. The Corinthian church was at Corinth, so named, because of geography. In fact, it was only geography that kept the brethren apart. There was a unity since the same Spirit had called them all. There was one Lord and all were brethren.

Sound utopic? To modern cynical ears, these things sound unrealistic....not practical. Miracles can be believed, yes, but God is presently limited to working through His people. I'll say! Especially with such an attitude of unbelief!

Is unbelief to be the hallmark of our modern churches? Do we deem the bible as unpractical? Can we not do all things through Christ who strengthens us...especially when we are commanded to do so?

May the Lord grant wisdom to us all. <><

 

[Cornelius]

If we claim to be enlightened by the Holy Spirit....then that is ridiculed as not possible. On a Christian forum to boot! ;)

:yes

 

[Cornelius]

Falsehood 1) Where is glitter used in the Catholic Church?

Falsehood 2) Where is this taught: "Just put one great guy at the very top and make him responsible for their souls.

Falsehood 3) Where is it taught that we are not responsible for our own souls?

Falsehood 4) Where is this taught: "Now they can just relax, because God will only be asking the top guy questions, because the rest only "followed orders"

I would love to address these, now with the permission of the Admin

I find the first one , unnecessary because anybody who has seen the clothing if the Catholic clergy knows that its pompous and over-the-top.

2/3/4 are actually ONE statement, based on the common knowledge that the RCC makes the doctrine and the faithful to the Church, adheres to it.

So when we look at their view of the pope, we see that he is given the same power of revelation as the writers of the Bible. Read it for yourself.

Papal infallibility is the dogma in Catholic theology that, by action of the Holy Spirit, the Pope is preserved from even the possibility of error[1] when he solemnly declares or promulgates to the universal Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals as being contained in divine revelation,
(So all he says , they MUST believe )


or at least being intimately connected to divine revelation. (ALL Christians must be intimately connected to divine revelation, and not look to another man to tell them about his connection . Catholics hand over the responsibility to the pope for their revelational knowledge )



It is also taught that the Holy Spirit works in the body of the Church, as sensus fidelium, to ensure that dogmatic teachings proclaimed to be infallible will be received by all Catholics. This dogma, however, does not state either (1) that the Pope cannot commit sin in his own personal life nor (2) that he is necessarily free of error, even when speaking in his official capacity, outside the specific contexts in which the dogma applies.

This doctrine was defined dogmatically in the First Vatican Council of 1870. According to Catholic theology, there are several concepts important to the understanding of infallible, divine revelation: Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Sacred Magisterium (Here is where Satan has left the door open for himself to come into the church and make it the Church. The very minute this doctrine from hell came, the error flooded the church. Today you cannot tell a Catholic that they must only look to the Word , because it has been decided FOR them, that this is not so. They have taught to accept the error, BY THE ERROR. But they are guilty as individuals for shifting the respocibility ontp the "Church" and not reading the Bible for themselves. If they did come to another conclusion, that indeed the pope cannot tell them these things and that its ONLY SCRIPTURE, then they would not be able to stay in that denomination.)


. The infallible teachings of the Pope are part of the Sacred Magisterium, which also consists of ecumenical councils and the "ordinary and universal magisterium". In Catholic theology, papal infallibility is one of the channels of the infallibility of the Church. The infallible teachings of the Pope must be based on, or at least not contradict, Sacred Tradition or Sacred Scripture. Papal infallibility does not signify that the Pope is impeccable, i.e., that he is specially exempt from liability to sin.

Notice "or". Its because when we look at their system, the "Sacred Tradition" can indeed be the deciding factor over the Scripture . Again , error taught and proved "correct" by the allowing the first error. Evil begats evil.

I can carry on , but in reality I have little interest in the workings of the sects.But I can hammer the point if you want me to.

So we can see, that indeed the Catholics are ruled from the top man down. Their perception of freedom is an illusion, because they are trapped in a dogma created by man, for men. And they love it.

 

[Cornelius]

Their confidence come from the fact that they cannot even consider that an unimportant person like myself can ever be correct and point out their mistakes, by purely looking at Scripture. To them, its inconceivable . How can I give myself the right to think for myself and judge something that is so old and has such a large tradition attached to it. To them it does not make sense, because that IS the stronghold that keeps them "faithful" The RCC has been structured around its own authority that it has usurped and by teaching error THROUGH ERROR , those who believe the teaching without question, CANNOT question after that.

The perfect spiritual catch 22.

I am not shrinking back from the truth. I do not fear man, and I am not Politically Correct. I take the truth wherever I go, not just on forums, where people "hide" behind their names and avatars. My real name is Cornelius Bosch, I live in Pretoria , South Africa, my photo is clearly shown . If people want my personal email, I will gladly give it.

I am safe within the name of the Lord. Truth protects truth, even if the flesh gets killed because of it. Many people have died because of these very views I have and many, many more will die because it again very soon, even in America, the "Land of the free"

I do not have a vendetta again the RCC, I stand against all falsehood among those who call themselves by His Name , without choosing a "pet". I do this, because I started with my OWN LIFE. I allow God to show me what is wrong and I have a deep need to only walk in His ways. I WANT to repent of everything that is not from Him. I care nothing for what man says if it goes against what God says.

 

[Cornelius]

If I may continue this discussion from a biblical basis.....

We see in the bible that the church was not divided into denominations. There was only one church per city or region. We also see that no church ruled over other churches. Even at Jerusalem, what came from the elders was not an edict or papal bull (nice turn of phrase there ;) ) but an exhortation based on the knowledge of God's will. Back in the day the Holy Spirit still ran the church.

But Paul and Barnabas stayed in Antioch, teaching and preaching with many .... the Holy Spirit said, "Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to ...

Disciples in those days weren't baptized into a particular church...but into Christ. You didn't see rival churches trying to win converts to their own cause.... for instance, you never saw the "Corinthian church" in Ephesus or vice versa. The Corinthian church was at Corinth, so named, because of geography. In fact, it was only geography that kept the brethren apart. There was a unity since the same Spirit had called them all. There was one Lord and all were brethren.

Sound utopic? To modern cynical ears, these things sound unrealistic....not practical. Miracles can be believed, yes, but God is presently limited to working through His people. I'll say! Especially with such an attitude of unbelief!

Is unbelief to be the hallmark of our modern churches? Do we deem the bible as unpractical? Can we not do all things through Christ who strengthens us...especially when we are commanded to do so?

May the Lord grant wisdom to us all. <><

Bumping this up to the front again. Its more important to read and understand what John has posted.

 

[dadof10]

"If you can ever make any major religion look absolutely ludicrous, chances are you haven't understood it."--Ravi Zacharias

Or even tried.

what makes you think Ravi Zacharias or his quote has anything to do with Catholicism ?

I guess because he used the words "any major religion". Catholicism falls into that category, don't you think?

 

[dadof10]

Last time I checked, lying was a sin, unless, of course you got a personal revelation from God telling you that lying was OK in your case. You need to repent, unless you can point to Catholic sources that back up these outright lies about the Church:

Falsehood 1) Where is glitter used in the Catholic Church?

Falsehood 2) Where is this taught: "Just put one great guy at the very top and make him responsible for their souls.

Falsehood 3) Where is it taught that we are not responsible for our own souls?

Falsehood 4) Where is this taught: "Now they can just relax, because God will only be asking the top guy questions, because the rest only "followed orders"

You seem quite bitter. The way to get over bitterness is not with lies, but through repentance. You should try it, or simply cite Catholic sources for the foolishness above.

As a third party in these conversations, I can't help but notice personal attacks and accusations here, calling Cornelius a lying and bitter person.


.... :naughty .....

Would you defend your denomination if someone twisted what your pastor taught, in an attempt at humor? Jesus called a spade a spade, and so have I.

 

[Cornelius]

Would you defend your denomination if someone twisted what your pastor taught, in an attempt at humor? Jesus called a spade a spade, and so have I.

Exactly.

You will defend your denomination even if they are wrong.

Jesus called a spade a spade when people were going against the Word and honoring religion. He did exactly the opposite of what you are doing, so you are not allowed to use Him as your example, if you are not honoring Him above your religion.

 

[Tina]

As a third party in these conversations, I can't help but notice personal attacks and accusations here, calling Cornelius a lying and bitter person.

Would you defend your denomination if someone twisted what your pastor taught, in an attempt at humor? Jesus called a spade a spade, and so have I.

..... Guess what ... it's already happening in my country. My church, pastors and even some members are under attack, grossly misunderstood and malicious scandals are posted on the internet .... by the gay community of my country because of some things my pastor said that were taken out of context. Even the local tabloids had a field day blowing the matter out of proportion. But do you think we care ? .... We just let the disgruntled people have their say and say their piece and pray about the situation.

As for the RCC, let's just face it. For starters, I really wonder what the Pope does on a daily basis. He appears to be more of a politician, going around giving speeches in his white costume and a crown on his head on his resplendent PopeMobile.

Please don't get me wrong ... I do hold high respect for him, but then again, come to think of it, I don't think I have read any reports of him praying for people, healing the sick, helping the needy, raising the dead, delivering the demon-possessed, reaching out to lost souls, baptizing people .... and so on ..... quite a far cry from Mother Theresa !

And of course, the Catholic Church is teaching a whole lot of things that are non-biblical and anti-biblical, but that's another story. Actually I'm not keen to get into all these arguments, really .... It's just a different form of Christianity, I guess !

 

[francisdesales]

Would you defend your denomination if someone twisted what your pastor taught, in an attempt at humor? Jesus called a spade a spade, and so have I.

Exactly.

You will defend your denomination even if they are wrong.

Jesus called a spade a spade when people were going against the Word and honoring religion. He did exactly the opposite of what you are doing, so you are not allowed to use Him as your example, if you are not honoring Him above your religion.

Where is this again in the bible? You proclaim a "bible only" theology, but it is interesting how often you make statements that are not found in the Bible, but are the "gospel of Cornelius", one different than found in the Bible...

...Where does Jesus condemn religion or rituals for the sake of religion or rituals? If you would read the Gospels again for the first time, you'd find they say something different. Jesus condemns outward ONLY rituals. Rituals that do not move the heart (and reliance on these outward signs only) are pointless. But Jesus did NOT come to tear down the Law, which includes the various rituals of Judaism. Not one iota. His teachings clearly point to taking an inner meaning to the rituals. But being that you have only a superficial understanding of God's teachings, it is easy to see why you make such mistakes.

 

[francisdesales]

As for the RCC, let's just face it. For starters, I really wonder what the Pope does on a daily basis. He appears to be more of a politician, going around giving speeches in his white costume and a crown on his head on his resplendent PopeMobile.

Please don't get me wrong ... I do hold high respect for him, but then again, come to think of it, I don't think I have read any reports of him praying for people, healing the sick, helping the needy, raising the dead, delivering the demon-possessed, reaching out to lost souls, baptizing people .... and so on ..... quite a far cry from Mother Theresa !

The Pope is involved in some of the above that you mention. I hadn't heard of any attempted resusitations. It is likely that you don't follow the daily schedule of the Pope, or the Vatican newspapers that report what he does. If you like, you can do the research yourself on google or the Vatican website...

One of THE primary missions of the Pope is to preach the Gospel. He does this daily, and at times, writes encyclicals for the Christians churches that are amazingly poignant. I realize you are not catholic, but you must admit that what he teaches crosses 'denominational' lines in many cases. He does more for the Church of Christ than all other teachers of our separated brothers combined in the world, since he is recognized as the visible spiritual leader of a huge segment of the world's population. Thus, his particular words are reported and spread by the media. Other leaders, significant in their little corner of the world, no doubt, will never get a catholic, or universal message across to the world like the Pope. No doubt, Christ knew what He was doing when He first instructed Peter (and his successors) to feed His sheep... The Pope does a good job of doing just that by teaching against the ways of the world and the culture of death. He does this with an unwavering stance that is unmatched in the non-catholic Christian world.

And of course, the Catholic Church is teaching a whole lot of things that are non-biblical and anti-biblical, but that's another story. Actually I'm not keen to get into all these arguments, really .... It's just a different form of Christianity, I guess !

yes, we say the same about you, as well...!

But being that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth, I think we can judge which is actually "Christianity" in its "proper" form.

Regards

 

[Cornelius]

This thread has now become a Catholic defending their denomination thread .

 

[whirlwind]

• Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Come out of who? Who is "her?" If we are "His people," we should know what not to be part of.

• Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
  
  John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of Me.

The Scriptures are full of what we are to do and not do. Much of which is NOT taught in churches or is what churches do in opposition to Scripture. "Come out of her My people....be not partakers of her sins."

 

[francisdesales]

• Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Come out of who? Who is "her?" If we are "His people," we should know what not to be part of.

"Her" is the world, it is whom Israel of the OT was called a "harlot" for - for turning from God and following the ways of "her", the world. It is not an organization that calls men to RETURN to God...!

HER plagues. WHO is receiving the plagues? The Catholic Church or the people of the world who have rejected the Way, the Truth, and the Life???

Some simple common sense will make this very clear.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

This thread has now become a Catholic defending their denomination thread .

The problem started in how you defined "denomination". Blame yourself. I have a right to defend my beliefs when they are attacked.

By stating a denomination is a Christian group that has moved away from the Gospel, you have implied something that is not historically supported. Your silly explanation of the Nicolatians was supposed to be your evidence that the Catholic Church also left the Gospel??? Where IS that Church that Christ said we would GO TO, if we cannot identify it???

Now, if you were to define "denomination" as defined by more religiously tolerant and neutral people, say, "a religious group with their own code, cult, and creed" or something like that, we'd be good. However, you have said something that you cannot historically support. Thus, I have made it known here that you again speak of things you know little about. And as long as you continue to scandalize the faithful with such false talk, I will continue to provide the other side - and let the rest decide which seems more likely to be true.

Regards

 

[Adullam]

There are unlimited arguments about what the church is not. But no one can take away the truth for long about what it truly is.

The Ecclesia is the divine community on earth. It is very small. Where 2 or 3 (or more) disciples come together based on the divine life in Christ.....there and only there....is the church. It follows the difficult narrow way of self-denial for the sake of obedience to the will of God. If Christ be not present both within and among the brethren, then it cannot be defined as the church of Christ. It testifies of the Way, the truth and the life....in both word and deed.

It is according to life...spiritual life in the divine reality. It is led by the Spirit. It is nurtured in the Spirit. It is edified in the Spirit. It is the brotherhood of Jesus Christ. It is not understood nor "visible" to the worldling...except for the love, peace and joy that emanate naturally (supernaturally) from the gathering of saints. We shall know them by their love. It is the communion of saints. It is not a place, as the kingdom of God is not a place. It is a spiritual reality. It is a light to the world.

The ecclesia is known in the world by the reputation of individual Spirit-filled ambassadors of Christ. He is one of them, they will say! The coming together of these in community becomes the pillar and ground of the truth in the region where they abide. They are a lasting beacon in the darkness of the cities. They lay down their lives for Christ and each other. The world cannot know the intimacy and fellowship of the ecclesia since it exposes the darkness they live in....unless they likewise repent and turn to the living God.


The Ecclesia makes disciples, bringing them into the same light and love that is their fellowship with one another. A disciple forsakes all to be a follower of Jesus Christ. Few indeed will love to the degree that dicispleship commands. Jesus is worthy of our complete devotion. He must be first. We must forsake our own lives for His. Many are called, but few are chosen.