Should Churches be non-denominational?

[Adullam]

It doesnt matter if there religious practices are according to the bible in its complete context.

What led you to this conclusion? Do you have an example of this?

 

[Adullam]

The Ecclesia is the divine community on earth. It is very small. Where 2 or 3 (or more) disciples come together based on the divine life in Christ.....there and only there....is the church. It follows the difficult narrow way of self-denial for the sake of obedience to the will of God. If Christ be not present both within and among the brethren, then it cannot be defined as the church of Christ. It testifies of the Way, the truth and the life....in both word and deed.

It is according to life...spiritual life in the divine reality. It is led by the Spirit. It is nurtured in the Spirit. It is edified in the Spirit. It is the brotherhood of Jesus Christ. It is not understood nor "visible" to the worldling...except for the love, peace and joy that emanate naturally (supernaturally) from the gathering of saints. We shall know them by their love. It is the communion of saints. It is not a place, as the kingdom of God is not a place. It is a spiritual reality. It is a light to the world.

The ecclesia is known in the world by the reputation of individual Spirit-filled ambassadors of Christ. He is one of them, they will say! The coming together of these in community becomes the pillar and ground of the truth in the region where they abide. They are a lasting beacon in the darkness of the cities. They lay down their lives for Christ and each other. The world cannot know the intimacy and fellowship of the ecclesia since it exposes the darkness they live in....unless they likewise repent and turn to the living God.


The Ecclesia makes disciples, bringing them into the same light and love that is their fellowship with one another. A disciple forsakes all to be a follower of Jesus Christ. Few indeed will love to the degree that dicispleship commands. Jesus is worthy of our complete devotion. He must be first. We must forsake our own lives for His. Many are called, but few are chosen.

All an idealized version of the Church, to be fully realized only at the end of time. Even during the time of Sacred Scriptures, this was rarely the actual condition of the church. The very writing of Scriptures was out of necessity of the Ecclesia requiring direction from men in authority - which naturally points to a visible church, not an idealized way of life independent from the Ecclesia proper.

The Church is not 2 or 3 guys sitting around eating chicken wings over Bible studies, no matter how holy they think they are... You present only part of the story. Ecclesia INCLUDES earthly organization, authority, discipline, creeds, cult, code and other such politically incorrect terms that make the "idealized church" throw their hands up in the air in their sense of affronted piety in a wistful pining for the days that, frankly, never existed.

Regards

Do Christians cease to be so when they eat chicken wings? We see things according to the measure of faith we have....or no longer have!

The word "ideal" is unknown to biblical and spiritual thinking. It is a concept according to the reasoning of man. It is a cynical viewpoint unknown to faith. It looks at things from man's perspective, making him the center and arbiter of truth. This is of course backwards. You may mean rather..."perfect." That is a biblical word that signifies maturity or completion. It isn't how holy they "think" they are....again human reasoning....but how fully Christ has apprehended them. We are to be perfect because Christ enables us to be so through His power. He commands us to be ideal...so to speak (in your reasoning)...He commands us to be perfect. Should we deny grace and still call ourselves Christian? A Christian does not frustrate the grace of God but walks in it, no matter how impossible the results may be. :yes This is the way of faith. It is through the Spirit that perfect works are wrought. These are the works prepared in advance. They are done in the Lord.

The purpose of church discipline and church order is the protection of the simple and profound way of Christ that I have stated. When more than a few are gathered some order must be brought in. The guidelines of which are set out by Paul in the bible. When a man has been fully tested and qualified he may be set as an overseer to the brethren. True overseers protect the brethren from the infiltration of the vain philosophies you are espousing here. A true leader in the faith does not lord it over others. The head of every man is Christ. We can't rule over the faith in others. That is not God's way.

We become spoiled for Christ if we reduce the truth to a relativistic notion that can only be worshipped in abstraction. Let the religions of the world continue to do so. But let the brethren live from and within the presence of the risen Saviour. Christ is come! Christ has sent us His Spirit to dwell within us and among the few who call upon Him with a sincere heart...by faith...in spite of the seemingly impossible standard we are called to. Are the brethren no more advanced than the world at large as you suggest? Such a notion denies the actual presence of Christ both in and among His brethren.

Cynicism is not the same as faith.

 

[francisdesales]

Do Christians cease to be so when they eat chicken wings? We see things according to the measure of faith we have....or no longer have!

Of course not, but Bible study with a couple people is NOT exactly what Paul had in mind when he talked about the Church, the pillar and foundation of the Truth.

The word "ideal" is unknown to biblical and spiritual thinking.

Wrong, it is part and parcel of spiritual GROWTH, since growth strives towards a summit....

"Be perfect as your Father in heaven is" means what??? We are to strive for an ideal, but one that we will NEVER achieve in this life...

We are to be perfect because Christ enables us to be so through His power.

Indeed, but we never will be perfect, since all men sin, all men fall and are in need of Christ's forgiveness.

He commands us to be ideal...so to speak (in your reasoning)...He commands us to be perfect.

Oh boy, now you contradict your first statement...

Should we deny grace and still call ourselves Christian? A Christian does not frustrate the grace of God but walks in it, no matter how impossible the results may be.

Again, in a perfect world when we actually DO say "yes" to God. However, Christians DO grieve the Holy Spirit. Christ Himself tells us that some come to faith and fall away. Many do NOT bear fruit, despite receiving graces from God Himself. We continue to have free will and can choose to become evil AGAIN. Thus, we are CONTINUOUSLY EXHORTED to follow the WAY. Why would this Biblical exhortation be necessary if "Christians do not frustrate the grace of God"? I see this as just another form of Marcionism, the first rigorist heresy. Only truly holy people are supposedly Christians... This smacks too close to Pharisaical pride for me. We are all works in progress. The Church is a hospital for sinners, not a collection point for "gods" (or self-proclaimed popes...)

It is through the Spirit that perfect works are wrought. These are the works prepared in advance. They are done in the Lord.

That, we never denied.

The purpose of church discipline and church order is the protection of the simple and profound way of Christ that I have stated. When more than a few are gathered some order must be brought in. The guidelines of which are set out by Paul in the bible. When a man has been fully tested and qualified he may be set as an overseer to the brethren. True overseers protect the brethren from the infiltration of the vain philosophies you are espousing here.

Or you are espousing there... "Apostle" means "one who is sent". The original apostles sent men, and they sent men, after laying their hands upon them. The OT symbology was not lost upon the first Christians. The apostolic ministry is not one where a person reads the Bible and sends himself to cause dissent and schism within the already-formed Body.

A true leader in the faith does not lord it over others.

Jesus did NOT say that was an absolute requirment to be a leader. He did not imply that if someone DID "lord it over", that they would be expelled from the leadership position. He gave "you shall be a servant" as a MODEL. In any organization, some people do not live according to the model - but they are not automatically expelled.

I will agree that a BETTER leader in the faith will not "lord it over others", but it doesn't follow that "a true leader in the faith" does not lord it over others - ever... This is just more rigorism.

The head of every man is Christ. We can't rule over the faith in others. That is not God's way.

Wrong. That is your incomplete and incorrect version of Christianity. God clearly gave particular men the power to BIND and LOOSEN other Christians. He gave other men the CHARGE and RESPONSIBILITY to feed the flock and protect the deposit of the faith. He even tells of parables to this effect, directed at the men who must lead the Christian communities, warning them of their responsibilities and failure to do so leads to severe punishment.

We become spoiled for Christ if we reduce the truth to a relativistic notion that can only be worshipped in abstraction.

Abstraction? Clearly, you are not aware that Christ is ACTUALLY PRESENT in our worship. There is no abstraction about it. I see Him, I take Him into myself. He gives His entire self to me. I participate with Christ in offering MYSELF to the Father, as well. Sadly, you were never catechized and are clueless on what happens at the Mass.

What is an "abstraction" is THINKING you are so holy because you AVOID worshiping God in this venue...

Let the religions of the world continue to do so. But let the brethren live from and within the presence of the risen Saviour. Christ is come! Christ has sent us His Spirit to dwell within us and among the few who call upon Him with a sincere heart...by faith...in spite of the seemingly impossible standard we are called to. Are the brethren no more advanced than the world at large as you suggest? Such a notion denies the actual presence of Christ both in and among His brethren.

Cynicism is not the same as faith.

What can I say? The usual "everyone else is wrong, I'm right" nonsense...

Who is denying the presence of Christ outside of the Mass and divine worship that takes place there? More false dichotomies... With you, it is either "my way, or no way".

It is utterly ironic that your supposed relativism has become so rabidly exclusive to anyone else who worships God in a different way than you... ALL people with a Creed are dead to Christ???? What would you say if I acted that way towards you and said "you are not Christian unless you come to Mass every Sunday?" "Either you become Catholic or you are going to hell"?

yes, this is where your supposed "in Christ" leads you to. This is the inevitable result of rigorism. We see it all over. Some Catholics who like the Latin mass complain about the mass in Engish, even stating that it is not the "True Mass". Rigorism. Some Catholics complain and frown if Catholics do not perform the sign of the cross just so, or allow their butt to touch the pew while kneeling, or chew the host. Catho-nazi's. Rigorism. Some Protestants complain about other Protestants who admit free will or who allow their women to go uncovered at their services, or Fred doesn't attend every Tuesday Bible study... You are just like all the rest of them, despite your talk about being so open and loving towards others... If someone belongs to an organized denomination or recites a creed, they cannot possibly be "good enough" to be in Christ...

Good grief, I hope you see how hypocritical you are acting.

This is the result of the rigorist heresy. Only those good enough are "true" Christians...

Regards

 

[Adullam]

Do Christians cease to be so when they eat chicken wings? We see things according to the measure of faith we have....or no longer have!

Of course not, but Bible study with a couple people is NOT exactly what Paul had in mind when he talked about the Church, the pillar and foundation of the Truth.

Did I say that a bible study constituted a church? Where did you get that impression?

The word "ideal" is unknown to biblical and spiritual thinking.

Wrong, it is part and parcel of spiritual GROWTH, since growth strives towards a summit....

"Be perfect as your Father in heaven is" means what??? We are to strive for an ideal, but one that we will NEVER achieve in this life...

You are still reasoning with the carnal mind. Christ within a disciple does not partially fulfill the will of God. Which part of Christ is a sinner? Our challenge is to remain in Christ. To be weak in our soul power so that He can be strong in us. That is our perfection.

We are to be perfect because Christ enables us to be so through His power.

Indeed, but we never will be perfect, since all men sin, all men fall and are in need of Christ's forgiveness.

Indeed? You are like so many that only agree with the bible in word but then say the opposite immediately after. You are in self-deception mode.

He commands us to be ideal...so to speak (in your reasoning)...He commands us to be perfect.

Oh boy, now you contradict your first statement...

I'm trying to converse with you, remember? ;)

Should we deny grace and still call ourselves Christian? A Christian does not frustrate the grace of God but walks in it, no matter how impossible the results may be.

Again, in a perfect world when we actually DO say "yes" to God. However, Christians DO grieve the Holy Spirit. Christ Himself tells us that some come to faith and fall away. Many do NOT bear fruit, despite receiving graces from God Himself. We continue to have free will and can choose to become evil AGAIN. Thus, we are CONTINUOUSLY EXHORTED to follow the WAY. Why would this Biblical exhortation be necessary if "Christians do not frustrate the grace of God"? I see this as just another form of Marcionism, the first rigorist heresy. Only truly holy people are supposedly Christians... This smacks too close to Pharisaical pride for me. We are all works in progress. The Church is a hospital for sinners, not a collection point for "gods" (or self-proclaimed popes...)

We can't say yes to God and mean it? God is unable to apprehend us? He can create a universe but He is powerless to overcome within us? Would you prefer that I preach failure?

We are to walk perfectly in an imperfect world. This is the calling and measure of Christ. What good is it if you can only be perfect in a perfect world? Surely God is even more intelligent than men. Why would He command the impossible if He did not provide the means? Your humanistic viewpoint is both degrading and a source of grief to God.

Are you a scientist that only believes in what he sees? Where is the faith associated with a believer? Are you a believer? Do you believe that Jesus was fully human? Just where does your limitation of God begin?

You are failing to believe God. What use is that if you don't believe in miracles let alone the greatest miracle of all...God incarnated into man? How can a liberal cynic be a follower of Christ? Now, there we have an impossibility!

The bible is a tool for the overcomer. We are exhorted constantly to overcome...to have victory! Is this just cheerleading? Those who have tasted the grace and power of God in experience know the bible to be NOT merely semantics.

It is through the Spirit that perfect works are wrought. These are the works prepared in advance. They are done in the Lord.

That, we never denied.

You are guilty again of what you accuse me of. You have been denying this in all your statements. You can't believe in perfect works....and ....in the impossibility of walking in obedience to God...perfectly.

The purpose of church discipline and church order is the protection of the simple and profound way of Christ that I have stated. When more than a few are gathered some order must be brought in. The guidelines of which are set out by Paul in the bible. When a man has been fully tested and qualified he may be set as an overseer to the brethren. True overseers protect the brethren from the infiltration of the vain philosophies you are espousing here.

Or you are espousing there... "Apostle" means "one who is sent". The original apostles sent men, and they sent men, after laying their hands upon them. The OT symbology was not lost upon the first Christians. The apostolic ministry is not one where a person reads the Bible and sends himself to cause dissent and schism within the already-formed Body.

A true leader in the faith does not lord it over others.

Jesus did NOT say that was an absolute requirment to be a leader. He did not imply that if someone DID "lord it over", that they would be expelled from the leadership position. He gave "you shall be a servant" as a MODEL. In any organization, some people do not live according to the model - but they are not automatically expelled.

I will agree that a BETTER leader in the faith will not "lord it over others", but it doesn't follow that "a true leader in the faith" does not lord it over others - ever... This is just more rigorism.

The head of every man is Christ. We can't rule over the faith in others. That is not God's way.

Wrong. That is your incomplete and incorrect version of Christianity. God clearly gave particular men the power to BIND and LOOSEN other Christians. He gave other men the CHARGE and RESPONSIBILITY to feed the flock and protect the deposit of the faith. He even tells of parables to this effect, directed at the men who must lead the Christian communities, warning them of their responsibilities and failure to do so leads to severe punishment.

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 1 Cor 11:3

2Co 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

Your reasoning is false and unbiblical. Can you allow yourself to see that? Please consider your resistance to the truth.

We become spoiled for Christ if we reduce the truth to a relativistic notion that can only be worshipped in abstraction.

Abstraction? Clearly, you are not aware that Christ is ACTUALLY PRESENT in our worship. There is no abstraction about it. I see Him, I take Him into myself. He gives His entire self to me. I participate with Christ in offering MYSELF to the Father, as well. Sadly, you were never catechized and are clueless on what happens at the Mass.

What is an "abstraction" is THINKING you are so holy because you AVOID worshiping God in this venue...

You have been catechized all right! :yes I prefer to keep my mind intact to serve the Lord.

Let the religions of the world continue to do so. But let the brethren live from and within the presence of the risen Saviour. Christ is come! Christ has sent us His Spirit to dwell within us and among the few who call upon Him with a sincere heart...by faith...in spite of the seemingly impossible standard we are called to. Are the brethren no more advanced than the world at large as you suggest? Such a notion denies the actual presence of Christ both in and among His brethren.

Cynicism is not the same as faith.

What can I say? The usual "everyone else is wrong, I'm right" nonsense...

Who is denying the presence of Christ outside of the Mass and divine worship that takes place there? More false dichotomies... With you, it is either "my way, or no way".

It is utterly ironic that your supposed relativism has become so rabidly exclusive to anyone else who worships God in a different way than you... ALL people with a Creed are dead to Christ???? What would you say if I acted that way towards you and said "you are not Christian unless you come to Mass every Sunday?" "Either you become Catholic or you are going to hell"?

yes, this is where your supposed "in Christ" leads you to. This is the inevitable result of rigorism. We see it all over. Some Catholics who like the Latin mass complain about the mass in Engish, even stating that it is not the "True Mass". Rigorism. Some Catholics complain and frown if Catholics do not perform the sign of the cross just so, or allow their butt to touch the pew while kneeling, or chew the host. Catho-nazi's. Rigorism. Some Protestants complain about other Protestants who admit free will or who allow their women to go uncovered at their services, or Fred doesn't attend every Tuesday Bible study... You are just like all the rest of them, despite your talk about being so open and loving towards others... If someone belongs to an organized denomination or recites a creed, they cannot possibly be "good enough" to be in Christ...

Good grief, I hope you see how hypocritical you are acting.

This is the result of the rigorist heresy. Only those good enough are "true" Christians...

You are confusing rigorism to man made rules in your religion with "obedeism" to the truth. I hope you see how humanistic your point of view is. Liberals want so much to lower the standard that is in Christ. These have never known Him. As for self-righteousness...well who is reasoning from the flesh, here....seriously!???

Regards

 

[Adullam]

This issue of denominationalism is centered on unbelief. Few believe that the entire truth can be known...so people focus on one truth and organize around it.

We are just weak men. Yes. But we can have Christ live within us.

"But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us." 2 Cor 4:7

It is God working through us to do His good pleasure. There is a fundamental disbelief in the gospel among believers in our time. If we deny Christ and the grace He died to give us...what is left?

Here's a picture. Imagine that God is an ocean. Now how much water is required to drown a single man? Is there not enough water in the ocean to drown every single person on earth???? So it is with God. There is enough of God to fill every person with His Spirit. This is acomplished by faith....a faith that is in exceeding short supply it would seem.

 

[francisdesales]

This issue of denominationalism is centered on unbelief. Few believe that the entire truth can be known...so people focus on one truth and organize around it.

No, the issue of denomination is that people disagree with each other, not that "few believe that the entire truth can be known".

There is not many truths, to each his own. There is only one truth, and men cannot come to know it without God, since it is REVELATION.

The issue, which you are also entangled in, is WHOSE "truth" is closest to the truth, when two Christians disagree, two Christians who CLAIM to be led by the Spirit, with contradicting beliefs...

When Jesus says "take it to the Church", He didn't mean a couple guys with a scroll doing a bible study... He had a particular group of people in mind, people given the power to bind and loosen.

We are just weak men. Yes. But we can have Christ live within us.

Which doesn't mean we suddenly become fully knowledgeable in the ways of God. This is a major mistake that "church of me, myself, and I" continue to make. Christ moves within us the desire to do good, but never are we forced to do His will. Paul over and over speaks of Christians who are 'children' in the ways of God. Christianity is a spiritual journey, and whining and complaining about someone who is not as perfect as you claim to be denies the fact that we are all on a pilgrim journey, some further along then others...

It is God working through us to do His good pleasure. There is a fundamental disbelief in the gospel among believers in our time. If we deny Christ and the grace He died to give us...what is left?

God moves within us the DESIRE to do good, but again, it is your fundamental disbelief in the fact that man PARTICIPATES WITH Christ. Christ is not our substitute. We participate - or choose not to participate. When the good seed falls on bad soil, what happens? Does good fruit pop up, anyways???

NO! Since we are free to participate or not, our 'soil' is pertinent to whether we obey Christ within us or not.

Here's a picture. Imagine that God is an ocean. Now how much water is required to drown a single man? Is there not enough water in the ocean to drown every single person on earth???? So it is with God. There is enough of God to fill every person with His Spirit. This is acomplished by faith....a faith that is in exceeding short supply it would seem.

I have faith in Christ, I just don't subscribe to your false presentation of the Gospel that sets up YOU as the almighty, substituting your words and deeds with Christ's words and deeds. This is just self-worship disguised as false piety...

 

[Adullam]

This issue of denominationalism is centered on unbelief. Few believe that the entire truth can be known...so people focus on one truth and organize around it.

No, the issue of denomination is that people disagree with each other, not that "few believe that the entire truth can be known".

There is not many truths, to each his own. There is only one truth, and men cannot come to know it without God, since it is REVELATION.

The issue, which you are also entangled in, is WHOSE "truth" is closest to the truth, when two Christians disagree, two Christians who CLAIM to be led by the Spirit, with contradicting beliefs...

When Jesus says "take it to the Church", He didn't mean a couple guys with a scroll doing a bible study... He had a particular group of people in mind, people given the power to bind and loosen.

You said it.... it is based on revelation from God! God just doesn't let us play church and mess things up for Him. We must wait on Him to guide and direct us. We must be led by the Spirit...Christ is still the actual Head of the church. Such a church cannot be divided if there is obedience. Denominations have ceased to be led of the Spirit.

We are just weak men. Yes. But we can have Christ live within us.

Which doesn't mean we suddenly become fully knowledgeable in the ways of God. This is a major mistake that "church of me, myself, and I" continue to make. Christ moves within us the desire to do good, but never are we forced to do His will. Paul over and over speaks of Christians who are 'children' in the ways of God. Christianity is a spiritual journey, and whining and complaining about someone who is not as perfect as you claim to be denies the fact that we are all on a pilgrim journey, some further along then others...

Yes...I agree! We grow into the full knowledge of Jesus Christ through the indwelling Spirit and the gifts of the brethren. We cannot come to love the brethren if we don't have any.

It is God working through us to do His good pleasure. There is a fundamental disbelief in the gospel among believers in our time. If we deny Christ and the grace He died to give us...what is left?

God moves within us the DESIRE to do good, but again, it is your fundamental disbelief in the fact that man PARTICIPATES WITH Christ. Christ is not our substitute. We participate - or choose not to participate. When the good seed falls on bad soil, what happens? Does good fruit pop up, anyways???

NO! Since we are free to participate or not, our 'soil' is pertinent to whether we obey Christ within us or not.

Ok you are mixing things up here. We desire to do good...that is our part...that is our participation. Christ only abides in one who welcomes Him in true abiding love. Our love is sent to God and God loves us and others through us. Of course there is a partnership between God and man...this is a covenant. We can't choose to be born from above but we can choose to obey and surrender to God.

Here's a picture. Imagine that God is an ocean. Now how much water is required to drown a single man? Is there not enough water in the ocean to drown every single person on earth???? So it is with God. There is enough of God to fill every person with His Spirit. This is acomplished by faith....a faith that is in exceeding short supply it would seem.

I have faith in Christ, I just don't subscribe to your false presentation of the Gospel that sets up YOU as the almighty, substituting your words and deeds with Christ's words and deeds. This is just self-worship disguised as false piety...

Again you have it backwards. Why are you so enamoured with false accusations? Do they satisfy an urge in you to be right? You are projecting your ways on me. I am simply testifying of the word and the spiritual reality in Christ. I am not apeaking differently than the Catholic mystics of old? Where they claiming to be the Almighty? Do you think that you are almighty? You claim to believe in authority and then deny it immediately. If you said none but your pope....at least that would be consistent with your claims. As it is you are an agnostic concerning things of the Spirit, denying the possibiblity of divine inspiration and perfect works...which you also espouse when it suits you.

You have entirely missed the point of the gospel. Surrender to God in Christ is the highest form of intimacy and worship. He consumates that relationship by coming to abide in us by the Spirit. This must be the best kept secret in the world! God is Almighty.....He works through weak vessels such as we. Christ in us is divine fellowship in the light. When Christ abides in a brother he is empowered to follow His Master. He becomes as His Master on earth....since the Master is present and abides in the brother.

3 "And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He who says 'I know him' but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. 6 By this we may be sure that we are in him: he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."

 

[francisdesales]

No, the issue of denomination is that people disagree with each other, not that "few believe that the entire truth can be known".

There is not many truths, to each his own. There is only one truth, and men cannot come to know it without God, since it is REVELATION.

The issue, which you are also entangled in, is WHOSE "truth" is closest to the truth, when two Christians disagree, two Christians who CLAIM to be led by the Spirit, with contradicting beliefs...

When Jesus says "take it to the Church", He didn't mean a couple guys with a scroll doing a bible study... He had a particular group of people in mind, people given the power to bind and loosen.

You said it.... it is based on revelation from God! God just doesn't let us play church and mess things up for Him. We must wait on Him to guide and direct us. We must be led by the Spirit...Christ is still the actual Head of the church. Such a church cannot be divided if there is obedience. Denominations have ceased to be led of the Spirit.

Playing Church???

YOU yourself are a "denomination", "playing Church". You are in no way historically related to the Apostles, so you were not sent by them. Since you are a "denomination", you have ceased to be led by the Spirit - according to your self-righteous rigorism. A denomination is a group of people who have the same creed, code, and cult in worshipping God - that defines you and your little "house church".

God only comes for the "righteous" outside of churches, isn't that what the Bible says??? Is that why you refuse to remain in Church?

...we [don't] suddenly become fully knowledgeable in the ways of God. This is a major mistake that "church of me, myself, and I" continue to make. Christ moves within us the desire to do good, but never are we forced to do His will. Paul over and over speaks of Christians who are 'children' in the ways of God. Christianity is a spiritual journey, and whining and complaining about someone who is not as perfect as you claim to be denies the fact that we are all on a pilgrim journey, some further along then others...

Yes...I agree! We grow into the full knowledge of Jesus Christ through the indwelling Spirit and the gifts of the brethren. We cannot come to love the brethren if we don't have any.

Ok, that's a start, we agree that we should worship God in a community. We are making progress...

God moves within us the DESIRE to do good, but again, it is your fundamental disbelief in the fact that man PARTICIPATES WITH Christ. Christ is not our substitute. We participate - or choose not to participate. When the good seed falls on bad soil, what happens? Does good fruit pop up, anyways???

NO! Since we are free to participate or not, our 'soil' is pertinent to whether we obey Christ within us or not.

Ok you are mixing things up here. We desire to do good...that is our part...that is our participation. Christ only abides in one who welcomes Him in true abiding love. Our love is sent to God and God loves us and others through us. Of course there is a partnership between God and man...this is a covenant. We can't choose to be born from above but we can choose to obey and surrender to God.

Then don't tell me how Christ "takes over" and we become like puppets, please, because that is how I read your statement.

I have faith in Christ, I just don't subscribe to your false presentation of the Gospel that sets up YOU as the almighty, substituting your words and deeds with Christ's words and deeds. This is just self-worship disguised as false piety...

Again you have it backwards. Why are you so enamoured with false accusations? Do they satisfy an urge in you to be right? You are projecting your ways on me. I am simply testifying of the word and the spiritual reality in Christ.

This is your opinion, but I happen to disagree with it. You like to project yourself as an example of what a true disciple of Christ is, but you have no problems looking down upon other people who you deem as "spiritually dead". Christianity is about a spiritual journey. We are not all at the same point in our journey. Thus, it smacks of self-righteousness when someone like yourself makes such sweeping generalizations that "all people with creeds are dead in Christ" or those who belong to "denominations" are spiritually dead. The irony is still lost on you...

A person who makes such claims proves that he is not a true disciple of Christ. Anyone can see that you are ignorant about such matters, since there are numerous people, Catholic or non-Catholic, who show signs of the Spirit in their actions, even though they express a formal creed or worship in a building on Sunday. The Spirit blows where HE wills, not where YOU say He blows. This is just more signs of the heresy of rigorism - that God only acts in people like yourself... The very thought shows how little you know about Jesus Christ.

You claim to believe in authority and then deny it immediately.

What are you talking about? Where do I deny authority?

If you said none but your pope....at least that would be consistent with your claims. As it is you are an agnostic concerning things of the Spirit, denying the possibiblity of divine inspiration and perfect works...which you also espouse when it suits you.

I don't deny any such thing - just YOUR claim that the Spirit ONLY works in people like yourself. As usual, it is the all or nothing with you. Either one is in the Church and subscribes to formal creeds - and DEAD, or they are FULLY in Christ and outside any formal Church...

Life is not that way, at least on this planet...

That is the main difference between you and the Church. Vatican 2 notes that the Spirit can and does work in people outside of the visible community that they call the Catholic Church. You DENY that the Spirit works in ANYONE but "non-denominational" people, whatever the heck that means...

More self-righteousness. Even Pope Benedict doesn't make such claims as Pope Adullum does...

You have entirely missed the point of the gospel. Surrender to God in Christ is the highest form of intimacy and worship.

Which is not what you are doing. You are surrending to your own will and desire to sleep in on Sundays and avoid any sort of leadership that doesn't express your particular opinions... By justifying "the Spirit doesn't work in denominations", you feel good about yourself and are able to be a better hypocrite by condemning those who are not like you in self-righteousness...

That's the "Gospel" of Adullam - condemn those who are not like me. If they have a Creed, they must be totally dead. Mother Teresa - dead in Christ. etc... :crazy

He consumates that relationship by coming to abide in us by the Spirit. This must be the best kept secret in the world! God is Almighty.....He works through weak vessels such as we. Christ in us is divine fellowship in the light. When Christ abides in a brother he is empowered to follow His Master. He becomes as His Master on earth....since the Master is present and abides in the brother.

And practically the entire Bible shows God working through men who teach and lead other men. We just don't find the "me, my chicken wings, and Jesus" in the Bible...

Your idea of leadership is to "follow" only those who you can either manipulate or who happen to have the exact same opinions, so you can continue to do things YOUR way...

Really, I see no further purpose in continuing this conversation. I have a pretty good idea where you stand. What is unfortunate is that your self-righteousness is a vice, not a virtue. People who are able to submit to others in the name of Christ are more apt to avoid this religious pride. Those who cut themselves off from this possibility merely become more religiously proud and rigorist in their self-conceptions. This is not a new heresy. You display all of the symptoms - and the cure is finding Christ in the Church and humbling submitting to someone you may not completely agree with and STILL obeying them in the name of Christ.

I will now bow out of this conversation, as the Spirit tells me I have done what I can for you and further discussion is not going to lead to repentance.

Regards

 

[Adullam]

No, the issue of denomination is that people disagree with each other, not that "few believe that the entire truth can be known".

There is not many truths, to each his own. There is only one truth, and men cannot come to know it without God, since it is REVELATION.

The issue, which you are also entangled in, is WHOSE "truth" is closest to the truth, when two Christians disagree, two Christians who CLAIM to be led by the Spirit, with contradicting beliefs...

When Jesus says "take it to the Church", He didn't mean a couple guys with a scroll doing a bible study... He had a particular group of people in mind, people given the power to bind and loosen.

You said it.... it is based on revelation from God! God just doesn't let us play church and mess things up for Him. We must wait on Him to guide and direct us. We must be led by the Spirit...Christ is still the actual Head of the church. Such a church cannot be divided if there is obedience. Denominations have ceased to be led of the Spirit.

Playing Church???

YOU yourself are a "denomination", "playing Church". You are in no way historically related to the Apostles, so you were not sent by them. Since you are a "denomination", you have ceased to be led by the Spirit - according to your self-righteous rigorism. A denomination is a group of people who have the same creed, code, and cult in worshipping God - that defines you and your little "house church".

God only comes for the "righteous" outside of churches, isn't that what the Bible says??? Is that why you refuse to remain in Church?

...we [don't] suddenly become fully knowledgeable in the ways of God. This is a major mistake that "church of me, myself, and I" continue to make. Christ moves within us the desire to do good, but never are we forced to do His will. Paul over and over speaks of Christians who are 'children' in the ways of God. Christianity is a spiritual journey, and whining and complaining about someone who is not as perfect as you claim to be denies the fact that we are all on a pilgrim journey, some further along then others...

Yes...I agree! We grow into the full knowledge of Jesus Christ through the indwelling Spirit and the gifts of the brethren. We cannot come to love the brethren if we don't have any.

Ok, that's a start, we agree that we should worship God in a community. We are making progress...

God moves within us the DESIRE to do good, but again, it is your fundamental disbelief in the fact that man PARTICIPATES WITH Christ. Christ is not our substitute. We participate - or choose not to participate. When the good seed falls on bad soil, what happens? Does good fruit pop up, anyways???

NO! Since we are free to participate or not, our 'soil' is pertinent to whether we obey Christ within us or not.

Ok you are mixing things up here. We desire to do good...that is our part...that is our participation. Christ only abides in one who welcomes Him in true abiding love. Our love is sent to God and God loves us and others through us. Of course there is a partnership between God and man...this is a covenant. We can't choose to be born from above but we can choose to obey and surrender to God.

Then don't tell me how Christ "takes over" and we become like puppets, please, because that is how I read your statement.

I have faith in Christ, I just don't subscribe to your false presentation of the Gospel that sets up YOU as the almighty, substituting your words and deeds with Christ's words and deeds. This is just self-worship disguised as false piety...

Again you have it backwards. Why are you so enamoured with false accusations? Do they satisfy an urge in you to be right? You are projecting your ways on me. I am simply testifying of the word and the spiritual reality in Christ.

This is your opinion, but I happen to disagree with it. You like to project yourself as an example of what a true disciple of Christ is, but you have no problems looking down upon other people who you deem as "spiritually dead". Christianity is about a spiritual journey. We are not all at the same point in our journey. Thus, it smacks of self-righteousness when someone like yourself makes such sweeping generalizations that "all people with creeds are dead in Christ" or those who belong to "denominations" are spiritually dead. The irony is still lost on you...

A person who makes such claims proves that he is not a true disciple of Christ. Anyone can see that you are ignorant about such matters, since there are numerous people, Catholic or non-Catholic, who show signs of the Spirit in their actions, even though they express a formal creed or worship in a building on Sunday. The Spirit blows where HE wills, not where YOU say He blows. This is just more signs of the heresy of rigorism - that God only acts in people like yourself... The very thought shows how little you know about Jesus Christ.

You claim to believe in authority and then deny it immediately.

What are you talking about? Where do I deny authority?

If you said none but your pope....at least that would be consistent with your claims. As it is you are an agnostic concerning things of the Spirit, denying the possibiblity of divine inspiration and perfect works...which you also espouse when it suits you.

I don't deny any such thing - just YOUR claim that the Spirit ONLY works in people like yourself. As usual, it is the all or nothing with you. Either one is in the Church and subscribes to formal creeds - and DEAD, or they are FULLY in Christ and outside any formal Church...

Life is not that way, at least on this planet...

That is the main difference between you and the Church. Vatican 2 notes that the Spirit can and does work in people outside of the visible community that they call the Catholic Church. You DENY that the Spirit works in ANYONE but "non-denominational" people, whatever the heck that means...

More self-righteousness. Even Pope Benedict doesn't make such claims as Pope Adullum does...

You have entirely missed the point of the gospel. Surrender to God in Christ is the highest form of intimacy and worship.

Which is not what you are doing. You are surrending to your own will and desire to sleep in on Sundays and avoid any sort of leadership that doesn't express your particular opinions... By justifying "the Spirit doesn't work in denominations", you feel good about yourself and are able to be a better hypocrite by condemning those who are not like you in self-righteousness...

That's the "Gospel" of Adullam - condemn those who are not like me. If they have a Creed, they must be totally dead. Mother Teresa - dead in Christ. etc... :crazy

He consumates that relationship by coming to abide in us by the Spirit. This must be the best kept secret in the world! God is Almighty.....He works through weak vessels such as we. Christ in us is divine fellowship in the light. When Christ abides in a brother he is empowered to follow His Master. He becomes as His Master on earth....since the Master is present and abides in the brother.

And practically the entire Bible shows God working through men who teach and lead other men. We just don't find the "me, my chicken wings, and Jesus" in the Bible...

Your idea of leadership is to "follow" only those who you can either manipulate or who happen to have the exact same opinions, so you can continue to do things YOUR way...

Really, I see no further purpose in continuing this conversation. I have a pretty good idea where you stand. What is unfortunate is that your self-righteousness is a vice, not a virtue. People who are able to submit to others in the name of Christ are more apt to avoid this religious pride. Those who cut themselves off from this possibility merely become more religiously proud and rigorist in their self-conceptions. This is not a new heresy. You display all of the symptoms - and the cure is finding Christ in the Church and humbling submitting to someone you may not completely agree with and STILL obeying them in the name of Christ.

I will now bow out of this conversation, as the Spirit tells me I have done what I can for you and further discussion is not going to lead to repentance.

Regards

You seem incapable of discussion without attacking and attempting to insult and slander those who disagree with you. I have not been on this forum for very long, but the pattern you exhibit is evident. You don't know me but are smug and sure in your scattered judgments. This is very immature to say the least. Your frustration is what is really being expressed through the venom. You are cherry picking by not responding to where I have shown where you are speaking exactly opposite from the truth in the word. You ignore the word and the truth to promote a human institution. There are many like you who project their own foibles onto others. You are against anyone who has not been catechized, is a liberal, and holds to a humanistic viewpoint. You are exactly backwards save for a few points I would like to clarify. You accuse us of being or having popes???? Who is it that teaches that??? ;)

Does the Spirit work in the denoms? Of course...God is at work everywhere. But many miss His purpose and His calling. The ultimate purpose of God is to set us free from the boxes we put Him in (Like denoms) so that we can come out and be fitted into intimate fellowship both with Him and others. Too many people use God for their own fulfillment rather than submitting to God in order to fulfill His will. Of course those who point that out will be attacked with backward arguments that make it seem as if those who surrender are the ones who are using God for their own wills. If one believes a lie of the enemy, that one becomes a doorway for continuing lies.

I believe the true church is training to be the bride of Christ. One can still be saved and not be IN the Bride. One can be invited to the wedding. So there will be many saved from the denominations....just very few who will reign with Christ. Sunday churches are doing the barest minimum. If an athlete were to do the barest minimum....that one could hardly expect to make it into the Olympics. So it is with the denoms. (Most don't even know there is a race going on) Those who are serious about God's upward call in Christ must leave the sunday churchianity behind in order to enter into an intimate discipleship of mutual responsibility with others. The personal walk and the corporate walk help each other. Both are required.

The full time churches are small. The purpose of these community churches is for spiritual training as well as for reaching a lost world. These are based on both the Spirit and the word. The notable difference is the commitment both to God AND each other. We find the church through this commitment to God in the Spirit. He guides and empowers us. We are our brother's keepers.

It is truly a shame that unbelief and a lack of zeal stop so many in North America from truly entering into God's version of church. We are simply too distracted and have taken in too much mediocrity to excel for Christ. But there is always hope that some will awaken! :yes :amen

 

[dadof10]

*Bump for Cornelius*

Wikipedia? This is your source? I guess you couldn’t get any of the hundreds of searchable websites that post the Catechism to work for ya, huh? Are your Jack Chick tracts in storage? OK, whatever. This article doesn’t come close to proving your absurd claims anyway, so let’s get started.

(BTW, it’s good form to paste the link for your source, which you didn’t do. That way people won’t question your motives.)

2/3/4 are actually ONE statement

No, actually, they aren’t.

Falsehood 2) Where is this taught: "Just put one great guy at the very top and make him responsible for their souls.â€Â

To be taken seriously, you have to PROVE, using CATHOLIC SOURCES that the “great guy at the very top†is “responsible for†our souls.

Falsehood 3) Where is it taught that we are not responsible for our own souls?

Although this one comes close to the one above it’s not the same. To make this ridiculous claim, you have to prove that someone (or no one) else is responsible for our souls. I wouldn’t necessarily have to be the “guy at the very topâ€Â. You have to prove that Catholic teaching states “we are not responsible for our own soulsâ€Â.

Falsehood 4) Where is this taught: "Now they can just relax, because God will only be asking the top guy questions, because the rest only "followed orders"

This speaks for itself, and is also different from the other two. Where does Catholic theology make the claim that questions will be asked by God, or that they will only be asked of the Pope?

based on the common knowledge that the RCC makes the doctrine and the faithful to the Church, adheres to it.

Yeah, kinda like Acts 15. Those power hungry apostles and elders in Jerusalem, making doctrine and forcing all the churches that Paul visited to OBEY it…Sheesh, of all the nerve…And, as far as we know, they all just “followed ordersâ€Â…What a bunch of mindless sheep…They should be ignoring this council, reading Scripture for themselves and each coming to their own “Holy Spirit†guided conclusion, then starting their own rival church.

All kidding aside, Acts 15 is the Biblical model when a doctrinal dispute arises, which you are rejecting. Where is the Biblical model of each individual believer reading Scripture and being personally led to doctrinal truth by the Holy Spirit?

So when we look at their view of the pope, we see that he is given the same power of revelation as the writers of the Bible. Read it for yourself.

Papal infallibility is the dogma in Catholic theology that, by action of the Holy Spirit, the Pope is
preserved from even the possibility of error[1] when he solemnly declares or promulgates to the
universal Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals as being contained in divine revelation,

The authors of Scripture were men who were kept from error by the Holy Spirit while writing Scripture. The apostles and elders were men who were kept from error when they met at the first council of Jerusalem. The Pope in union with the bishops are preserved from error in RARE CASES too. This is a singular, negative (“kept fromâ€Â) gift from God to the faithful and has nothing to do with the Popes personal holiness, as the Wikipedia article goes on to say. This does not prove your point. Remember what you are trying (pitifully) to “proveâ€Â.

Where does this paragraph make the claim that the Church teaches:

“Just put one great guy at the very top and make him responsible for their souls�

Or:

“We are not responsible for our own souls�

Or:

“God will only be asking the top guy questions, because the rest only "followed orders"?

From the above paragraph you conclude:

(So all he says , they MUST believe )

Did you even read the article that you posted? Let me help you out.

“This dogma, however, does not state…that he is necessarily free of error, even when speaking in his official capacity, outside the specific contexts in which the dogma applies.â€Â

“ALL he says, they MUST believe�??? Your own article directly contradicts you. I’m embarrassed for you.

Pretty feeble first attempt, but maybe the next paragraph will prove your points, huh?

or at least being intimately connected to divine revelation. (ALL Christians must be intimately
connected to divine revelation, and not look to another man to tell them about his connection .
Catholics hand over the responsibility to the pope for their revelational knowledge )

How does “Dogmatic teaching†being “intimately connected to divine revelationâ€Â, negate each individual Christian striving to be “intimately connected…â€Â? Where does this say the two are mutually exclusive? Don’t you think doctrine should be connected to “divine revelation†along with individual believers? Seems like a no-brainer. Again, how does this prove your points?

0 for 2, but you still have some time left on the clock.

It is also taught that the Holy Spirit works in the body of the Church, as sensus fidelium, to ensure that dogmatic teachings proclaimed to be infallible will be received by all Catholics. This dogma, however, does not state either (1) that the Pope cannot commit sin in his own personal life nor (2) that he is necessarily free of error, even when speaking in his official capacity, outside the specific contexts in which the dogma applies.

Yes, WILL BE, just like in Acts 15-16. The decisions made in Jerusalem were revealed doctrine and as such, “will be†believed. This is the Biblical model, and again, this does not prove any of your three points above.

This doctrine was defined dogmatically in the First Vatican Council of 1870. According to Catholic theology, there are several concepts important to the understanding of infallible, divine revelation: Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Sacred Magisterium

Here I must step in because the authors (it could be anyone) are not accurately expressing Catholic theology. I’ll let the Catechism speak for itself:

84 The apostles entrusted the "Sacred deposit" of the faith (the depositum fidei), contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. "By adhering to [this heritage] the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. So, in maintaining, practicing and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful."

85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ." This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."
87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me", the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

You’ll notice four things:
1)The “deposit of faith†does not include the Magisterium per se. It is the interpreter of the deposit of faith.
2)The “deposit of faith†is sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture, called also the “Word of Godâ€Â.
3)The Magisterium (the Pope in union with the bishops) is the SERVANT of the Word of God, both oral and written.
4)This still doesn’t prove ANY of your points, even if you accept only the Wikipedia quote and reject the ACTUAL TEACHING of the Church.

(Here is where Satan…[blah, blah, blah, anti-Catholic rhetoric]…Today you cannot tell a Catholic that they must only look to the Word , because it has been decided FOR them, that this is not so.

Yes, it was decided for them by Jesus and the Apostles who NEVER TAUGHT SOLA-SCRIPTURA, unless you can be the first person in history to find this little gem in Scripture…Didn’t think so…

They have taught to accept the error, BY THE ERROR. But they are guilty as individuals for shifting the respocibility ontp the "Church" and not reading the Bible for themselves. If they did come to another conclusion, that indeed the pope cannot tell them these things and that its ONLY SCRIPTURE, then they would not be able to stay in that denomination.)

You’re right. When people accept the unbiblical, heretical doctrine of sola-scriptura, they cannot stay in the Church that Christ founded. If some did not accept the precepts handed on to them by the first council of Jerusalem, they would probably “not be able to stay†either.

The infallible teachings of the Pope are part of the Sacred Magisterium, which also consists of ecumenical councils and the "ordinary and universal magisterium". In Catholic theology, papal
infallibility is one of the channels of the infallibility of the Church. The infallible teachings of the
Pope must be based on, or at least not contradict, Sacred Tradition or Sacred Scripture. Papal
infallibility does not signify that the Pope is impeccable, i.e., that he is specially exempt from liability to sin.

Notice "or". Its because when we look at their system, the "Sacred Tradition" can indeed be the
deciding factor over the Scripture . Again ,…[ blah…blah…more anti-Catholic blathering]..â€Â

You do realize that Wikipedia is editable by anyone with access to a computer, right? LITERALLY anyone with a computer. That’s OK, I fixed it. Here is what the article says now:

The infallible teachings of the Pope, which are the teachings of Jesus Christ Himself, are part of the Sacred Magisterium, which was founded by Jesus, which also consists of ecumenical councils and the "ordinary and universal magisterium" which are Guided by the Holy Spirit. In Catholic theology, papal infallibility is one of the channels of the infallibility of the Church, founded by Jesus Christ and Guided by the Holy Spirit. The infallible teachings of the Pope must be based on, or at least not contradict, Sacred Tradition AND Sacred Scripture. Papal infallibility does not signify that the Pope is impeccable, i.e., that he is specially exempt from liability to sin. The Protestant Reformation is heresy.

There…Fixed to reflect the “truthâ€Â.

Because the UNKNOWN AUTHOR (or authors) put(s) an “or†in a sentence does not mean the Church teaches Tradition can be over Scripture. There are many Church documents that unequivocally claim that Scripture and Tradition cannot contradict. The point he or she was trying to make was that the teachings of the Pope must not contradict other revealed Truth, either in oral OR written form. You are trying too hard to find controversy that isn’t there. This doesn’t prove your points either, sorry.

So, let’s recap. 0-4, which means you need to take back the anti-Catholic whoppers you have posted and apologize to retain any semblance ofredibility.

I can carry on , but in reality I have little interest in the workings of the sects.But I can hammer the point if you want me to.

To “hammer†the point you’ll need an actual hammer, not a caricature of one. All you’ve given me is rhetoric, but you can keep trying if you want to and I’ll respond as time permits. Remember what you’re trying to “prove†and stick to the subject.

This thread has now become a Catholic defending their denomination thread .

Yep, right after it became a thread for sensationally dishonest, anti-Catholic bigotry.

 

[Cornelius]

I am standing on what I said. The RCC is run from the top and if you disagree with them, you are out.

 

[francisdesales]

I am standing on what I said. The RCC is run from the top and if you disagree with them, you are out.

Baloney. How many American politicians have been excommunicated for their flouting their anti-life agenda??? As usual, stereotyping with very little knowledge of the facts...

All Christian churches are "run from the top", since Christ is the Head of the Church...

 

[francisdesales]

You seem incapable of discussion without attacking and attempting to insult and slander those who disagree with you.

And you???

Have you been respectful by providing me with Scriptural proof, as I have asked over and over and over again??? Nope. Just get on the soapbox and lecture me, chastise me for my lack of vision, whatever... Being that I am "carnal", I require someone of your immense spiritual wisdom who can dance around the subject, but never once proving his point of view. Congrats, mister spiritual...

but yet, you cannot provide me with any Scriptures, or even implied, that Jesus Christ hates organized religions.

Just name calling and condescension. This is where the Spirit of Truth leads you, right???

I have not been on this forum for very long, but the pattern you exhibit is evident. You don't know me but are smug and sure in your scattered judgments. This is very immature to say the least.

I have tried to respecful of your opinions initially, but I quickly learned that you have no intentions of backing up your claims with Scriptures, but prefer to use this forum as your little soap box so you can spread your false gospel. Call my judgments what you will, but at least I don't get involved making claims where I cannot prove my point of view... To avoid that, you merely preach and call me names. THIS is your idea of measured and mature conversation?

How about providing some Scriptures, as I have asked so many times before, that state that Jesus was against organized religions. Can you make an argument from Scriptures that assert this claim??? If not, just admit you are wrong... But no, your pride won't let you do that, since it might reveal that you are NOT full of the Holy Spirit (according to you). For some reason, you think that the Spirit makes a man infallible and fully aware of the ways of God - and thus, your religious pride will not allow you to admit you are wrong, since your slippery slope would conclude that the Spirit is NOT in you. Thus, this conversation continues without any evidence to support your claim...

It is no longer about Jesus, but about Adullam trying to prove that he is correct and that the Spirit has fully rested upon him... If wrong, Adullam is afraid that the Spirit has left him... THIS is the problem with the "church of one" people. If found wrong, they must deny it, no matter what, since it would infringe upon their self-proclaimed holiness.

You are cherry picking by not responding to where I have shown where you are speaking exactly opposite from the truth in the word.

No, that would be you. I haven't cherry picked anything, or at least I have tried not to. I have tried to respond as much as possible to all of your posts. You, I have written long posts and you mention not a thing about any of it, even bragging how you "baited" me about some off the wall subject on "conquer", ignoring the entire rest of that long post.

Look to the beam in your eye, buddy, before you talk about cherry picking.

You ignore the word and the truth to promote a human institution.

WHEN have you promoted the word of JESUS CHRIST ON THE SUBJECT???

Get real...You promote yourself, I am promoting a human and divine institution, which Christ Himself established. I am using the Scriptures as my guide for what Christ believed. You are using your fanciful ideas and pretending they are Christ's.

There are many like you who project their own foibles onto others.

And you??? At least I can back up my "foibles" with Scriptures. Not you... No, you are forced to twist Scriptures out of context in such ridiculous fashion. And you continue to tip-toe around the topic...

You accuse us of being or having popes???? Who is it that teaches that??? ;)

You teach it. You YOURSELF are a "pope", claiming FOR YOURSELF the charism of infallibility for practically everything you say - even when you are clearly wrong, such as here (because you have yet to provide ANY evidence that Jesus was against organized religions). The actual Pope claims NOTHING for himself - the Church RECOGNIZES it. And his infallibility is very limited and very rarely used, unlike you, who uses it daily. [/quote]

Does the Spirit work in the denoms? Of course...God is at work everywhere.

Scriptures, please, where God "works" in demons... God keeps them in existence, but the Spirit is not at work in the demons. That is just plain foolish.

Blah blah blah... But there is always hope that some will awaken! :yes :amen

A nice long rant from the soap box... When I saw no Scriptures, I skipped over it, not even reading it. Again, you prove the reason why you are here. To advance a false gospel, an agenda that revolves around the "beliefs of Adullam". I am not interested in them, if they have no Scriptural backing. Since they do not prove anything about Jesus and His desire to do away with institutional religions, they are pointless babbling to me. Thus, I will not even comment or copy them...

If you desire me to be more respectful to you, perhaps you could reciprocate and actually provide some evidence that Christ desired all organized religions to be disbanded, rather than your philosophizing with your culturally-taught mind that worships the individual and his own reason... As you continue to do this, I will continue to point out the charade you are engaging in, the worship of self and using the Bible to proof text your continued self-worship.

 

[dadof10]

I am standing on what I said.

This is what you are "standing on".

Just put one great guy at the very top and make him responsible for their souls. You must admit it really takes care of that difficult personal responsibility thing (way overrated !!) Now they can just relax, because God will only be asking the top guy questions, because the rest only "followed orders".

These accusations are outright lies. So let the record show, Cornelius stands by his untruthful statements even after they have been proved to be false, anti-Catholic rhetoric. You have lost much credibility, I'm sorry to say.

The RCC is run from the top

No one has ever denied this. The Catholic Church has ALWAYS been "run from the top". Again, read ACTS 15. The Church has always operated this way. But, this is a straw-dog, as you know. You didn't simply make the claim that the Church was "run from the top". Read your ridiculous quote above.

and if you disagree with them, you are out.

And again you show your ignorance. is John Kerry still Catholic? Nancy Pelosi? Have these people who publicly flaunt their anti-life stand in the face of the Church been excommunicated? NO, as much as some people would like to see it, they have not been.

Please read up on Catholic theology before you come on these forums and embarrass yourself again.

 

[dadof10]

I am standing on what I said. The RCC is run from the top and if you disagree with them, you are out.

Baloney. How many American politicians have been excommunicated for their flouting their anti-life agenda??? As usual, stereotyping with very little knowledge of the facts...

Oops...didn't mean to be redundant. You beat me to the punch...

 

[Cornelius]

I am standing on what I said. The RCC is run from the top and if you disagree with them, you are out.

Baloney. How many American politicians have been excommunicated for their flouting their anti-life agenda??? As usual, stereotyping with very little knowledge of the facts...

Oops...didn't mean to be redundant. You beat me to the punch...

You should try tell the Pope you do not want to adhere to major Catholic dogma anymore. They have become PC about many matters, but they will not allow you to stay if you go against what they teach. Why do you think the Reformers left ? Why did they burn people at the stake if you are free to disagree with them.

Try telling them the Eucharist is idolatry and see what happens.

History testifies against you.

 

[francisdesales]

You should try tell the Pope you do not want to adhere to major Catholic dogma anymore.

Yes, you have again proven that you don't know what you are talking about...

They have become PC about many matters, but they will not allow you to stay if you go against what they teach. Why do you think the Reformers left ?

No, the Church as a Body is not "PC". Some bishops have, but the entire Church continue to teach the Gospel without worrying about PC.

Why the Reformers left is another story which we won't cover here.

Why did they burn people at the stake if you are free to disagree with them.

"They"? You mean the Pilgrims or the English Protestants? Or are you speaking of Jean Calvin???

Please. Trying to blame Catholicism on the burning of "heretics" is an anachronistic attempt to justify yourself... Burning someone at the stake was a punishment utilized by secular courts of the time, not just Catholicism.

Will you also complain about the US government's policy on killing crinimals, or other nations that practice capital punishment???

Try telling them the Eucharist is idolatry and see what happens.

Your point is lost on me. If I was to call your particular "worship" idolatry, and I was part of your little pretend "church", I have no doubt I would be ostracized, as well. Don't be a hypocrite.

 

[Adullam]

Excommunication is unknown among the simple churches of faith. We have church discipline where a member is publicly warned after not listening to certain brothers. If the warning goes unheeded and the wilfull disorder continues, then that brother is rejected from the assembly. This is seen as a temporal arrangement until said rejected one comes to his senses and sees his error. Then he is to be re-admitted into the brotherhood. We cannot judge anyone in finality.

Since the brotherhood is actually based on the people themselves, we can keep an eye on the progress of the disciplined one....even having periodic contact either directly or indirectly. There is no red tape involved. There are no empirical declarations...just the concensus of the brotherhood.

Ironically, I find that there is not enough discipline in the institutions. You never see public rebukes as per Jesus' instructions. System churches follow their own etiquette. All are deemed as sinners and pew lurkers abound! Anyone can attend. It often says at the entrance to such places..."all are welcome." We do not practice this exactly. We discern the disorderly and shameless ones. These are not welcome unless they repent. Repentance is still a heart requirement before the Lord AND the fellowship. Are we just any meeting or the meeting of the church of God? Lurkers cannot abide in a place of intimacy with God and the brethren. They are immediately exposed by their discomfort. Or they will be convicted by the Holy Spirit and repent in our midst on the spot! We see both types of occurances. God reveals these. We do not try to spot these by our efforts...the Spirit reveals them. This is again according to the biblical account.

 

[shad]

Will you also complain about the US government's policy on killing crinimals, or other nations that practice capital punishment???

You seem to be confused about the church and secular world, the governments. Governments are made up by the secular world.

.

 

[dadof10]

You should try tell the Pope you do not want to adhere to major Catholic dogma anymore.

What would have happened if an individual or group had disagreed with the decision reached in Jerusalem in Acts 15? What do you think Paul would have said and done? The Church as a whole OBEYED the council's decision. It came from the TOP, and was expected to be FOLLOWED by ALL BELIEVERS.

"As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem. (Acts 16:4)

And what did this obedience bring?

So the churches were strengthened in the faith, and they increased in numbers daily. (Acts 16:5)

I have mentioned Acts 15 in almost every post on this topic and you have ignored it EVERY time. Hummm...I wonder why...

I guess it's easier to throw rocks at straw-dogs than actually discuss Scripture.

They have become PC about many matters, but they will not allow you to stay if you go against what they teach.

I gave you two examples of public sinners who are "allowed to stay", even though they "go against" Catholic Dogma, so again you are putting forth, at the least, inaccurate statements. You are still ignorant of the facts and refuse to accept them, even when you are shown to be in error.

First you complain that the Church is too liberal for allowing dissenters to stay, then, in the very same breath, complain that She will not excommunicate them. Any stick will do to beat your enemy, right? Must be pretty rough to live with so much hatred toward an institution. You need help.

Why do you think the Reformers left ?

Many reasons, the least of which were pride, ambition and wealth.

Why did they burn people at the stake if you are free to disagree with them.

The bottom of the anti-Catholic barrel has been scraped. If all else fails bring up burning at the stake. What's next, Hitler?

Try telling them the Eucharist is idolatry and see what happens.

Why would I want to lie, like you do?

Your whole post is irrelevant to the subject, anyway. This isn't about political correctness or the Reformers or the Eucharist or medieval capital punishment, it's about these lies...

"Just put one great guy at the very top and make him responsible for their souls. You must admit it really takes care of that difficult personal responsibility thing (way overrated !!) Now they can just relax, because God will only be asking the top guy questions, because the rest only "followed orders""

...which you then tried pitifully to defend...

"I would love to address these, now with the permission of the Admin..."

...then, when proved beyond a doubt to be simply blowing smoke, you actually STOOD BY your anti-Catholic foolishness...

"I am standing on what I said."

If I were you, I'd just let this thread rest. You are losing more and more credibility with each attempt. If you would like to continue, though, be my guest. I will be happy to keep pasting this drivel and setting you straight until you go away.